Upgraded PC; Motion Blur makes same old games unplayable.

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
resurrection20
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Joined: 19 Feb 2021, 13:32

Upgraded PC; Motion Blur makes same old games unplayable.

Post by resurrection20 » 19 Feb 2021, 14:41

Hi all,

TL;DR, I upgraded from an Intel Core Quad system to a Ryzen 5 3000 system and now there's so much motion blur that my games make me throw up.

I've been building my own gaming PC's (at a slow upgrade pace) for 17 years now.

About a year and a three months ago (where does time go? I keep getting distracted from truly solving this problem), I went from this [feel free to laugh, but please keep it to yourself :) ]:
Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600
4 GB OCZ Fatal1ty
ASUS P5QPro MoBo
Geforce GTX 1050 with G-Sync (which I've heard some people describe as a "boat anchor" but I've had good luck with it.)
Dell E2215HV (some budget office monitor with a single VGA connection)

To this:
Ryzen 5 3600
16 GB G. Skill RAM
MSI B450M Gaming Plus MoBo
And I kept my GTX1050 with the plan to upgrade it sooner rather than later to an ATI card (I just seem to have better luck with those and it will be more compatible with my AMD FreeSync monitor?) next time there are some sales, but with the latest data mining craze, I think I'm going to be stuck with it for awhile.
Scepter M25 (E255B-1658A-25) LED TN Monitor. Advertised: 1MS G-to-G, 165 Hz, Anti-Flicker, Pixel Overdrive mode and FreeSync.

The first thing I did upon upgrade was load up some of my old favorites to see just how they'd look with graphics cranked: Spintires/Mudrunner, Farming Simulator 17, Tomb Raider, Railway Empire, Tropico 5, Pillars of Eternity, WW1 Verdun Western Front, Valiant Hearts: The Great War (to see what 2D looked like).

These should be pretty big clues as to what sort of gamer I am and also that my graphical standards are pretty low.

Immediately I noticed that due to LCD blur all of these old games were unplayable. I tried playing them with far lower settings than my antique Intel setup and still no joy.

One of my main questions is, how can a major computer upgrade on all fronts create so much motion blur? If the blur exists now, it should have definitely existed before? By all rights, running all my games at higher FPS on a higher refresh rate monitor should be an improvement? Why could a game look just fine on my old setup, but be a blurry mess on my new one?

One theory I had based on the below posts is that the Ryzen 5/Zen 2 refuses to play well with my Nvidia graphics card?

I tried to do my research and not necro any old threads. My question is, I believe, related to this viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7033&p=52619&hilit ... 2619]post.

A viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7033&p=52619&hilit ... lowup post to that includes this quote with my emphasis: "We can keep our heads stuck in the sand and pretend that latency doesn't exist, or we can acknowledge the problem and finally begin to address it. As latency becomes more of a problem nowadays than ever (Windows 10, Ryzen, game developers buffering frames to boost FPS instead of properly optimizing games, bloated electron garbage "software," etc.), more and more people are waking up to the latency question and are questioning why their old and less powerful systems were noticeably more responsive than their brand new systems (quad core Intel owners upgrading to Ryzen systems being a notable example)."

Okay, now here's where I'm at. I don't 100 percent understand what's happening in this older thread and I don't know if it directly translates to motion blur.

I had an aging Intel Quad Core CPU and an antique junky Dell office LED-backlit LCD panel that ran over a VGA connection. To be honest, I gamed on that for quite a few years and was content. Not blown away, but never was like "this sux." I never once had a noticeable issue with motion blur. I'm not flush with cash, so I upgrade on sales and in a piecemeal manner. I had an ATI card, but it crapped out on me, so I decided to give Nvidia a try and got a decent upgrade and was content. Then, I caught some more sales and decided it was time to bite the bullet and an entirely new system, so I upgraded to a Ryzen 5 3000 series with a new motherboard and RAM to match, obviously, but kept my Nvidia graphics card and the same old monitor. Immediately I noticed that any motion whatsoever made me sick to my stomach. Games were unplayable. Even scrolling down a simple webpage in a browser, would cause my eyes to hurt and give me a headache as everything became a blurry mess with even the slightest bump of the scrollwheel.

So I did a lot of research (on a laptop so I could actually read without throwing up) and decided that to match my new admittedly humble system's "power," I had better get something that at least claims to be fancy-schmancy gaming monitor (Scepter E255B-1658A-25). It wasn't on the Blurbusters list of best gaming monitors, but it had good reviews and I could afford it (that part is key). So, it's LED, has 1ms response time, it's 165hz, it's got an pixel overdrive mode and some anti-flicker backlight thingy. Finally, it has Freesync so I can use the G-Sync of my Nvidia card. I also went from VGA to DP. And to be honest, it did make a little difference. G-Sync is unusable, the motion blur is worse than without it. Using a web browser is doable, but only if the overdrive mode is on and it's set to 165hz. Still not as smooth as my antique Dell monitor on my old system. Games are "playable" now, but too much motion forces me to either let my eyes go out of focus until the movement is over or look away from the screen. Obviously, this makes any game with a lot of action or any competition absolutely unplayable. The character standing still every few seconds so he can actually see what he's shooting at (and even then, only shoot at things that aren't moving too quickly) is a pretty easy target. What finally got me up in arms about all this is trying to replay a 20-plus-year-old game: Baldur's Gate II. Scrolling around the map is a blurry pixelated mess that looks like, honestly, a pile of fresh sick and makes me want to produce one. I took my new computer innards out and replaced them with my old Intel setup. Zero noticeable motion blur in any game on either my old monitor or my brand new one. Now, it isn't powerful enough to play my newest games, but the ones that ran on both were infinitely better looking on the older system. I borrowed a friends Asus gaming monitor and my new system was still terrible to play on. I also tested all three monitors on an ancient AMD A8/Radeon 8550G laptop with the ancient games it could play and had acceptable results. I took both of my monitors to his house and they worked just fine on his gaming system. We also swapped graphics cards and the business was the exact same: My card works fine in his system and his looks like trash in mine. Both cards work just fine on my old Intel setup. I also tried a variety of cables, including HDMI and DVI and even adapters for VGA. The only caveat is that my buddy only has an Nvidia card for testing and I don't know anyone with an ATI card to test if it's some sort of architecture compatibility problem.

So, I know for sure these components are good:
Monitors.
Graphics cards.
DP/HDMI/DVI/VGA Cables.
Ancient Intel setup.

I know for sure where the problem originates:
Ryzen 5 3000 series CPU
New motherboard?
New Ram?

Now, the reason I'm creating this TL;DR post is because I've tried all the easy stuff:
I use the latest build of Windows 10 with all updates.
Graphics drivers are up to date.
I don't have any weird or unnecessary software installed or running in the background.
I've turned off Windows gaming mode and the xbox bloatware junk that's on by default.
I've turned off full screen optimization.
Turned the graphics all the way down on my test games so they're running at a super high frame rate even if they look hideous.
(And before you ask, yes I turn off motion blur in games and some of my test games don't even have it.)

I don't want to have to try to upgrade to a 240Hz monitor because I'm not certain that would fix this problem. I don't want to upgrade my perfectly good graphics card and I don't want to upgrade out of this new Ryzen system and buy a new Intel one, because I can't afford to do so. And to be honest, it feels like a waste to have all this hardware and not even really have played any games on it. I can toss out the DXDiag if you guys think it will help.

I basically want to do whatever it takes to play games again. If I have to get in the registry to turn a bunch of stuff off, disable cores, run some software or use an older driver. I'll do whatever. I miss games. A lot.

I don't need this PC for anything but gaming, so it doesn't have to be capable of doing anything else.

*le sigh*

Thanks for reading.
Last edited by resurrection20 on 22 Feb 2021, 13:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Upgraded PC; Motion Blur makes games unplayable.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 21 Feb 2021, 17:07

The stutter-to-blur continuum means microstutters can blend to motion blur.
(Low framerate = stutter, high framerate = motion blur, stutter vibrates too fast for eye to see = motion blur)

Questions
- Have you tried completely disabling GSYNC on both the card and monitor temporarily?
- Have you done single-monitor mode, to avoid the infamous different-Hz multimonitor stuttering?
- Have you completely uninstalled the graphics driver before reinstalling?
- Have you reinstalled Windows?

For best VRR experience:
- Clean driver install
- Clean OS install
- G-SYNC + VSYNC ON in NVIDIA Control Panel
- VSYNC OFF in game settings
- Framerate cap 3fps below Hz (only for VRR=ON)
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

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       • List of FreeSync Monitors
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resurrection20
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Joined: 19 Feb 2021, 13:32

Re: Upgraded PC; Motion Blur makes same old games unplayable.

Post by resurrection20 » 22 Feb 2021, 13:36

Hey Chief,

Thank you for the timely response.

To your first paragraph, let me see if I'm understanding this correctly: I may be having two separate problems? Framerate drops create a stutter which creates motion blur? But also, high framerates creation motion blur? So the stuttering would be caused by a hardware/drivers issue? But the high framerate would explain why older games look so blurry? I might still not be getting it...
I do know when I use the blurbusters website test, it constantly says I have a browser stutter. But nothing else is running and it's my only tab open. I imagined that was an extension like HTTPS Everywhere or some such.

To your questions:
Yes to disabling G-Sync on both card and monitor.
I've never even heard of a single-monitor mode, so I will look into that. I only have the one monitor connected.
I have done the clean install of Windows with a fresh driver.
G-Sync and VSYNC on in panel, but off in game actually seemed to help some.
I'm also going to try the Framerate cap right now.

I will now away and endeavour to see if I can monkey around with this some more before my next Zoom meeting.

— Res

resurrection20
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Joined: 19 Feb 2021, 13:32

Re: Upgraded PC; Motion Blur makes same old games unplayable.

Post by resurrection20 » 22 Feb 2021, 14:05

So, trying the stuff you said:

Framerate Cap 3 FPS (162) below Hz made a HUGE difference. I can play now without getting sick, though I'm still not in love with the looks of things. I can't read text or make out the faces of NPCs while moving. That's still a win, though!

Having only one monitor and one cable plugged in, I couldn't find any way to disable a multi-monitor mode. I'm assuming Windows 10 disables it by default if it doesn't detect multiple displays.

I am willing to do a 100 percent clean Windows 10 install, even though I did one recently. I did install a lot of games for testing to see if this was program specific and, as we all know, Steam constantly reinstalls DX9.0C every time you install a new older game.

I'm feeling good because I made some progress and I want to keep the ball rolling.

Thank you thus far!

— Res

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Re: Upgraded PC; Motion Blur makes same old games unplayable.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 22 Feb 2021, 18:40

resurrection20 wrote:
22 Feb 2021, 13:36
To your first paragraph, let me see if I'm understanding this correctly: I may be having two separate problems? Framerate drops create a stutter which creates motion blur? But also, high framerates creation motion blur? So the stuttering would be caused by a hardware/drivers issue? But the high framerate would explain why older games look so blurry? I might still not be getting it...
All of these info are incorrect.

<Optional Display Science Reading>
I just point you to about a few hours of textbook study at www.blurbusters.com/area51 and www.blurbusters.com/1000hz-journey and the stutter-to-blur continuum explained at www.testufo.om/vrr ....

The simplest explanation of the matter is that stutter-to-blur is a continuum (aka stutter and blur can blend, depending on the frequency of the stutter itself, and if the stutter vibrates faster than the flicker fusion threshold). It is easily seen at seen at www.testufo.com/vrr ... Notice that low-frequency stutter is shaky (like a slow guitar string) and high-frequency stutter is blurry (like a fast guitar string). This also applies to regular "stutter" (like sample-and-hold effect) or erratic "stutter" (like inconsistent framepacing or driver bugs in framepacing, etc). At high refresh rates like 240Hz+, it is possible for erratic stutter to blend into extra motion blur above-and-beyond simple refresh rate limitation or GtG limitation. If you have only perfect framepacing and regular stutter, then you don't have additional motion blur created by erratic stutter above-and-beyond the regular stutter / finite frame rate. It's easier to see-for-yourself of the science & physics are easier to observe in motion tests such as www.testufo.com/eyetracking / www.testufo.com/persistence / www.testufo.com/framerates / www.testufo.com/vrr
</Optional Display Science Reading>

However, at the end of the day, this is probably not necessarily what you're getting.

You're probably getting flawed VRR overdrive, much like the pictures at either www.blurbusters.com/faq/lcd-motion-artifacts or www.blurbusters.com/faq/lcd-overdrive-artifacts ... Look at those pictures and animated GIFs, and tell me if you're getting ghosting/corona effects. In other words, some panels have more flawed GtG behaviors during VRR operation than non-VRR operation.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
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       • List of FreeSync Monitors
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resurrection20
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Joined: 19 Feb 2021, 13:32

Re: Upgraded PC; Motion Blur makes same old games unplayable.

Post by resurrection20 » 22 Feb 2021, 23:02

After redoing all the tests and carefully reviewing the artifacts, I believe I have motion blur. When I turn my monitor's overdrive off, it looks like it's ghosting. But with it on, it's equally blurry on both sides of the UFO.

It seems I also have some reading to do.

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Re: Upgraded PC; Motion Blur makes same old games unplayable.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 23 Feb 2021, 03:16

You were saying you have browser stutter. Modern systems with clean installs typically do not have browser stutter (single tab, nothing else running), so this may be indicative of some hidden problems that may need to be optimized.

1. What does www.testufo.com/animation-time-graph look like?
2. Have you tried rebooting with temporarily fewer services/tray utilities? (e.g. disable all RGB software, cloud sync software, etc)
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

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resurrection20
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Joined: 19 Feb 2021, 13:32

Re: Upgraded PC; Motion Blur makes same old games unplayable.

Post by resurrection20 » 23 Feb 2021, 18:08

So, despite a valiant cleaning spree and short of reformatting, I couldn't get Firefox to stop stuttering.

I did, however, manage to get everything to run in Edge with no stuttering— I don't know if that's cool or not. I mean, I know Edge isn't cool, but I don't know if that's okay to use.

I took the UFOs pic with an iPhone. The top is 165hz with pixel overdrive engaged and G-Sync and V-sync on in Nvidia CP.

Seeing it as a still now, I realize there are always two UFOs. So, this is run-of-the-mill motion blur?
IMG_1372.jpg
IMG_1372.jpg (3.67 MiB) Viewed 625 times
Animation_Timing_Deviation.jpg
Animation_Timing_Deviation.jpg (294.36 KiB) Viewed 625 times

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Re: Upgraded PC; Motion Blur makes same old games unplayable.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 24 Feb 2021, 01:07

resurrection20 wrote:
23 Feb 2021, 18:08
I did, however, manage to get everything to run in Edge with no stuttering— I don't know if that's cool or not. I mean, I know Edge isn't cool, but I don't know if that's okay to use.
Your animation timing deviation looks good now!

So at least for Edge, we can rule out browser as a cause of stutters/motionblur, and focus on diagnosing your display motion blur more accurately.
resurrection20 wrote:
23 Feb 2021, 18:08
Seeing it as a still now, I realize there are always two UFOs. So, this is run-of-the-mill motion blur?
However, the photo is not useful for my diagnosis -- it is not WYSIWYG enough -- but this requires me to explain that displays behave differently with stationary-eye versus moving-eye. Likewise, for stationary-camera versus moving-camera.

Duplicate images is called the "Phantom Array" effect, a cousin of the mouse arrow duplication effect.

Stationary-eye or stationary-camera on moving objects, can create phantom array effects due to the finiteness of the frame rate / refresh rate.

Image


.....

Now if you want to share a photo of UFOs, please do either or both of these methods, if you want me to help you diagnose:

1. Pursuit Camera Method: Photography Version of Moving Eye Gaze On Moving Objects
If you are trying to share a photograph of what you see with a moving-eye, you need a moving-camera. See Hand Wave Smartphone Pursuit Camera Instructions, wave your phone while videoing www.testufo.com/ghosting .... Some of the frames will have a fairly clear Sync Track ladder captured into certain freeze frames. Upload the best freeze frame, or simply share the video (so I can choose the best freeze frame. YouTube single-frame step can be done via the "," and "." keys)

2. Stationary Camera Method: Photograhy Version of Stationary Eye Gaze while Moving Objects Scroll Past
Adjust your camera shutter to be much faster than a refresh cycle -- e.g. 1/500sec. Sometimes you need a 3rd party app to configure fast shutter (e.g. DSLRCamera or ProCam app). However, this non-WYSIWYG photo only helps diagnose some kinds of ghosting problems.

Stationary eye on moving objects (and stationary camera on moving objects) is always subject to duplicate-image phantom-array effects as seen in The Stroboscopic Effect Of Finite Frame Rates.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
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       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

resurrection20
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Joined: 19 Feb 2021, 13:32

Re: Upgraded PC; Motion Blur makes same old games unplayable.

Post by resurrection20 » 01 Mar 2021, 12:13

Alright, I was hoping to get access to a better phone, but I had to use my $20 (before $20 rebate!) Android. I borrowed an iPhone last time. It can't do the stationary 1/500 shutter test, but this is my attempt at the smartphone hand wave. Unfortunately, I think my video capture may be too blurry to be useful. I did every line twice just in case one of them wasn't good enough. I may have to get back to you next time I have a better camera around...

phpBB [video]

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