Samsung S95B QD-OLED Black frame insertion

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thatoneguy
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Re: Samsung S95B QD-OLED Black frame insertion

Post by thatoneguy » 28 Jul 2022, 17:35

RonsonPL wrote:
28 Jul 2022, 14:06

I'm really not as optimistic it will come back, ever. And the only chance is to get some mainstream attention to it, like when Digital Foundry sent a STRONG message about Sony's stupid lack of "Automatic Low Latency Mode" toggle. It didn't take long before the feature was added and problem solved.
But Digital Foundry doesn't voice their opinions as strongly about the BFI modes. In fact, the only person among their team who realizes the benefits, thinks he's just having some "weird expectations" and always almost apologizes when he mentions that he uses it on his OLED.
I didn't see any "big" youtuber or website "crying" loudly about the current state of BFI in OLEDs. Sadly.
The best I've seen is "too bad, but oh well... not a big deal"

I think they will not return to 240Hz anytime soon, and if they do, I'm afraid they'll add 240Hz input and jack the price up painfully, pushing it as a gaming hardware, and slapping "gaming hardware" somehow allows for magical +100% price hikes.

I'm losing hope, honestly. The biggest chance for good CRT-like displays, in my opinion, lies within VR tech. Sony just announced their PSVR2 will have cineatic mode. 1920x1080 res (per eye) for the virtual screen. For all the non-VR games :)
It'll be an OLED. Might be the best "TV" for consoles ever released. 1920x1080 with perfect 3D and 60 and 120Hz support. If only they opened it up for PC or somebody hacked it so it could be used on PC.
If the price ends up around 500$ and it actually becomes the best TV for gaming, albeit a virtual one, it would be no brainer at least for me. But Sony is big. If there's no chance of using it with PC, other competitors may not have access to such a good quality display and definitely not at comparable price. Not only they'd pay much more for the display, as Sony can secure bigger orders and use the volume to negotiate the price down, but also the rest of the VR HMD would not be nowhere near the PSVR2, as Sony surely aims to balance the cost of hardware out by profits made on software licencing. [/color]
John constantly brings up BFI in like almost every stream they do. I don't think I've ever heard him "apologize" for it

OLED is clearly stopgap for MicroLED(if the industry doesn't intentionally shelve or eventually nerf that technology because it's really way too good for regular consumers whom they want to continually make money off of) but this industry moves like molasses because it's all about maximizing profits, so they'll milk the shit out of "inbetween" technologies like OLED like they did with Plasma while churning out crappy LCDs because they're the cheapest to produce.

If this industry wasn't this way there would have been much more research on MicroLED 20 years ago and we might have never had to deal with Plasma and OLED, maybe even LCD.
As always the industry backs the wrong horse on purpose first and the consumer has to suffer from it while they have much to gain from said consumers with decades of countless small "improvements".

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Re: Samsung S95B QD-OLED Black frame insertion

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 28 Jul 2022, 21:20

thatoneguy wrote:
28 Jul 2022, 01:03
^Why do we not have Rolling Scan on OLED TVs yet?
Does it have to do with WOLED not being suited to it?

Also, I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure the C2 wasn't all that much cheaper than the C1 or CX.
And that's not mentioning that the C1's BFI mode was nerfed compared to CX.
The LG OLED BFI was a rolling scan, in high speed video.
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Re: Samsung S95B QD-OLED Black frame insertion

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 28 Jul 2022, 21:24

thatoneguy wrote:
28 Jul 2022, 17:35
OLED is clearly stopgap for MicroLED(if the industry doesn't intentionally shelve or eventually nerf that technology because it's really way too good for regular consumers whom they want to continually make money off of) but this industry moves like molasses because it's all about maximizing profits, so they'll milk the shit out of "inbetween" technologies like OLED like they did with Plasma while churning out crappy LCDs because they're the cheapest to produce.
OLED and MicroLED is in many ways converging -- I anticipate a lot of hybrid technologies.

There is a lot of potential left in OLED.

With the way supply chains are going, and how the factory country (China) is slowing down, I think modular discrete MicroLED will probably be pricey until the 2030s.

It will be an option but don't count out LCD or OLED.

Also, there's a shocking number of hybrids possible with OLEDs, see Isn't QD-OLED perfect for backlight strobing? where I describe a number of possible hybrids.

In other words, OLEDs will possibly eventually have the same capabilities of MicroLED, long before modular MicroLED becomes cheap enough to replace OLEDs.
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thatoneguy
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Re: Samsung S95B QD-OLED Black frame insertion

Post by thatoneguy » 29 Jul 2022, 04:03

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
28 Jul 2022, 21:20

The LG OLED BFI was a rolling scan, in high speed video.
Are you sure?
What about Sony's BVM/PVM OLED's? Weren't they limited to 60hz but with rolling scan they could achieve upto 7.5ms or so?
I thought LG were doing traditional BFI(flashing full black frames).

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Re: Samsung S95B QD-OLED Black frame insertion

Post by thatoneguy » 29 Jul 2022, 04:20

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
28 Jul 2022, 21:24
There is a lot of potential left in OLED.
I don't see it. The fact that OLED needs external technology like Quantum Dot to improve spells disaster.
I don't see OLED getting that much brighter. They're already having to install substantial heat-sinks on TVs.
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
28 Jul 2022, 21:24


In other words, OLEDs will possibly eventually have the same capabilities of MicroLED, long before modular MicroLED becomes cheap enough to replace OLEDs.
Well I know this one can't be true.
OLED can't have the same lifetime, it can't have the same endurance to burn in, it can't have the same response time(OLED is microsecond while MLED is sub-nanosecond etc.)

And MicroLED is already going down in price fairly fast. $80K for 89 inch TV by Samsung in Q3 2022 is coming apparently.
Just last year or so there was no sub-100K MicroLED TV in sight.

Meanwhile OLED might be replaced by LCD with MiniLED dimming zones.
Samsung's 8K MiniLED QN900B apparently has only 2000 dimming zones but with some AI trickery Samsung managed to improve the dimming performance by a lot.
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Re: Samsung S95B QD-OLED Black frame insertion

Post by RonsonPL » 29 Jul 2022, 05:39

thatoneguy wrote:
29 Jul 2022, 04:20

And MicroLED is already going down in price fairly fast. $80K for 89 inch TV by Samsung in Q3 2022 is coming apparently.
Just last year or so there was no sub-100K MicroLED TV in sight.
There's still a ton of issues and you cannot apply the rate of price cuts from 80K to the 8K price range. The rate may slow down by a lot by the time it reaches affordable zone.

As far as I know, they already had to delay "smaller" TVs. There were plans for a smaller model for earlier.
There's a good website to keep yourself up to date with the events on given tech
For Microled it's
https://www.microled-info.com/

The initial optimistic predictions have already been corrected to less optimistic.
Currently, the only hope for reasonably priced MicroLEDs are in VR/AR. Big TVs may need 5, 10 or even 20 years before they can become the saviors (sub 2500$ TVs) or they may never reach this point, just like SED and FED, although those died before even reaching the point MicroLEDs are currently at.

Also, even if you'd want a cheap set, a few tiles for home TV. At current tech, you'd get super low res. And even for people willing to accept compromises, anything below 1080p in 2025 won't fly.
1080p would be a hard sell.
1440p would be a minimum, but the support for this res is a niche.
So you'd basically need the full 4K res anyway. That's a lot of big tiles and shrinking them is not easy, it seems.

Personally I wouldn't mind having 20kg of aluminum radiators on OLED TV to get better brightness. The cost? How about removing all the smart features, fancy design costs, HDR certificates etc. to balance it out ;) )
(Not going to happen though :P)

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Re: Samsung S95B QD-OLED Black frame insertion

Post by thatoneguy » 29 Jul 2022, 12:08

RonsonPL wrote:
29 Jul 2022, 05:39

There's still a ton of issues and you cannot apply the rate of price cuts from 80K to the 8K price range. The rate may slow down by a lot by the time it reaches affordable zone.

As far as I know, they already had to delay "smaller" TVs. There were plans for a smaller model for earlier.
There's a good website to keep yourself up to date with the events on given tech
For Microled it's
https://www.microled-info.com/

The initial optimistic predictions have already been corrected to less optimistic.
Currently, the only hope for reasonably priced MicroLEDs are in VR/AR. Big TVs may need 5, 10 or even 20 years before they can become the saviors (sub 2500$ TVs) or they may never reach this point, just like SED and FED, although those died before even reaching the point MicroLEDs are currently at.

Also, even if you'd want a cheap set, a few tiles for home TV. At current tech, you'd get super low res. And even for people willing to accept compromises, anything below 1080p in 2025 won't fly.
1080p would be a hard sell.
1440p would be a minimum, but the support for this res is a niche.
So you'd basically need the full 4K res anyway. That's a lot of big tiles and shrinking them is not easy, it seems.

Personally I wouldn't mind having 20kg of aluminum radiators on OLED TV to get better brightness. The cost? How about removing all the smart features, fancy design costs, HDR certificates etc. to balance it out ;) )
(Not going to happen though :P)
I know all about that bro. I know the site and LEDInside is an even better source(though inconsistent tagging)
I know about the delays. Some of them were due to technical problems but some of them were due to chip shortage etc.

Regardless if Samsung finally succeeds in launching that 89 inch TV for 80K that will be a huge step towards the mainstream.

Not exactly true, there's been many predictions some optimistic and some less so. At the end of the day they are just predictions.

What makes me a bit optimistic is that there's too many companies invested on the tech whether for VR/AR or normal displays or mobile it doesn't matter. I never really saw that many companies invested in for example, SED/FED.
But the most important thing to consider is that MicroLEDs are just a microscopic version of the LEDs we've had for decades, so MicroLEDs have far more applications than just display technologies so they will keep getting improved because a bunch of MicroLEDs will be far more power efficient than a regular LED(I remember years ago some industry person stating that a 55 inch 4K MicroLED TV would consume less than 5 watts because there's no need for color filters and some other things).

What killed SED was patent trolling but afaik from what I've heard from Chief the SED prototypes were worse than Plasma, although could have been improved.

Well the problem isn't shrinking them at all, this seems to be a misconception. MicroLEDs are <50um. After all you wouldn't have MicroLED contact lenses if you couldn't get them small. The whole point of MicroLED is that it's small in the first place.
The problem is the mass transferring and improving yield. And another problem has been improving efficiency.
Both of these have improved somewhat.

There are already 11 inch 2470x960 screens for cars
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 47771.html

LEDMAN released a 163 inch 8K screen. If you divide that by 4 you get roughly a 81 inch 4K screen
https://www.ledinside.cn/qiye/20220708-52835.html

Leyard's Black Diamond a 162 inch 4K screen for about 500K yuan which is about $70K. Although it is technologically inferior to Samsung since it's using 0.9 pitch but the fact that we're already getting budget variants is promising(plus lot of high end projector guys spend way more than this so this huge 162 inch 4K screen is valid as a projector replacement)
https://inf.news/en/digital/5577e8755f6 ... e746e.html


Sure you wouldn't mind but few people would buy a fat tv nowadays. Also the lifetime would probably suffer greatly and it would consume a ton of power which no doubt environmentalists would screech about.
An LCD with a lot of dimming zones is more practical in comparison to that or even Dual-Layer LCD.

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