What are your suggestions for improving BFI?

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
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Anonymous087312

What are your suggestions for improving BFI?

Post by Anonymous087312 » 27 Sep 2022, 20:17

BFI is here to stay, and I hope it becomes standard someday, when it's good enough. Flickering technology in general simply handles motion better than sample-and-hold, and that is true for all frame rates: from 24FPS in film (reducing stutter and making the motion look smoother), to higher frame rates in videogames, like 60 and 120FPS (reducing motion blur, and also making the motion smoother). BFI is crucial in VR as well, because while the flicker can cause headaches in some people, a far more common cause of headaches in VR is excessive amount of motion blur due to image persistente from sample-and-hold.

But there are still plenty of criticisms, misinformation and inconsistency in how BFI is applied.

So, my question: what do you think should be done to improve BFI in all aspects for all sources? To maximize the smoothness and clarity of movement, while minimizing any discomfort from flicker, and also not make the brightness take a huge hit?

Should OLEDs just try to emulate the look of traditional old film projectors, which flickered at just 48hertz (and gave a much smoother motion than OLEDs with BFI turned off)? But then I see a few people saying that even 120hertz flicker in BFI makes them feel ill a bit! I don't get this, CRTs flickered at only 60hertz! Can we find a way for OLEDs to flicker at higher refresh rates than 60hertz, and in the exact same manner that CRTs did? What is exactly wrong with many modern BFI algorythms?

Above all: I just want movies to look like they're supposed to: no stutter, but also no soap opera effect! There must be a way to achieve this, based on all I said above.

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Re: What are your suggestions for improving BFI?

Post by RonsonPL » 30 Sep 2022, 04:30

You cannot have both smooth motion and clear image at the same time with movies.
You'd need to flicker it all with 24Hz refresh (not even 48) and nobody would endure that for more than 2 seconds. Also, 24 is not enough to see detailed motion anyway.

The stutter you mention has nothing to do with motion clarity. It occurs where the refreshrate is not exact multiplier of 24, so 24, 48, 72, 96, 120Hz.
If you use a PC, set your display to one of those and you'll be good. Besides the PC, various TV manufacturers use different methods to deal with the issue. HDTVtest channel usually informs about this so check their review when choosing a TV for movies*. This will help you get rid of the stutter, but if you want to see a bit more, you will need what you called "soap opera effect", which means frame interpolation. Its flawed and strips the movie of its magic sometimes, because it makes you see more, so the motion is more realistic. This is why fight scenes will look like an amateur cosplay attempt, instead of "mighty warriors having a battle". ;) But personally I don't mind and prefer action movies like this. Transformers for example. I could see more details in camera pans, robot animations etc. But if you dislike it, then you'll have to wait for 96fps movies. Sadly this idea seems to have died. In the future 96fps movies will be created and in those, the director may choose to lower the motion quality on purpose for the scenes which require the lack of realism you'll so accustomed throught the centrury of current cinematography. This should solve the problem. It may be year 2050 before this happens, but eventually I'm sure it will. ;)


* but be aware this guy's opinion about gaming displays is completely wrong and never ever buy a TV or monitor for gaming just because he recommends it. He hates low persistence (like BFI) as he's a die hard fan of HDR and lowered brightness disqualifies the TV in his eyes. In truth, you'll be better off buying a good TV with proper low persistence mode for gaming.

About flicker. CRTs flicker in a different way. Personally I can easily tell when my LCD strobes at 100Hz, just as easily as my CRT flickers at 85. That's due to the nature of phosphor, which doesn't switch off so suddenly.

There's no way around the rule FPS=HZ. So to get clear motion at 60fps, you need to strobe it at 60. This means flicker.
With 85-100 it's acceptable to many, at 120 it's acceptable to most.

There's not much we can do to improve the BFI situation. Sadly, recently we can observe the backward direction. New OLED TVs and panels from LG bring serious BFI limitations, not low persisitence friendly displays are showing up (this can be solved, check Chief Blurbuster's threads and messages on this and Laboratory forum section to learn more about this topic) and we have more and more games, which lack Motion blur OFF option, ray tracing is advertised as "super motion blur quality", badly degrading antialiasing technologies get more popular (TAA, FSR2, checkerboarding, to call the worst three) and Variable Rate Shading is being praised (this may be a good idea for static image and displays which add a ton of their own blur, but is visibly degrading on proper gaming displays)
So I guess this is not going tracktion as well as we'd like.

Anonymous087312

Re: What are your suggestions for improving BFI?

Post by Anonymous087312 » 12 Oct 2022, 21:56

RonsonPL wrote:
30 Sep 2022, 04:30
You cannot have both smooth motion and clear image at the same time with movies.
You'd need to flicker it all with 24Hz refresh (not even 48) and nobody would endure that for more than 2 seconds. Also, 24 is not enough to see detailed motion anyway.

The stutter you mention has nothing to do with motion clarity. It occurs where the refreshrate is not exact multiplier of 24, so 24, 48, 72, 96, 120Hz.
If you use a PC, set your display to one of those and you'll be good. Besides the PC, various TV manufacturers use different methods to deal with the issue. HDTVtest channel usually informs about this so check their review when choosing a TV for movies*. This will help you get rid of the stutter, but if you want to see a bit more, you will need what you called "soap opera effect", which means frame interpolation. Its flawed and strips the movie of its magic sometimes, because it makes you see more, so the motion is more realistic. This is why fight scenes will look like an amateur cosplay attempt, instead of "mighty warriors having a battle". ;) But personally I don't mind and prefer action movies like this. Transformers for example. I could see more details in camera pans, robot animations etc. But if you dislike it, then you'll have to wait for 96fps movies. Sadly this idea seems to have died. In the future 96fps movies will be created and in those, the director may choose to lower the motion quality on purpose for the scenes which require the lack of realism you'll so accustomed throught the centrury of current cinematography. This should solve the problem. It may be year 2050 before this happens, but eventually I'm sure it will. ;)


* but be aware this guy's opinion about gaming displays is completely wrong and never ever buy a TV or monitor for gaming just because he recommends it. He hates low persistence (like BFI) as he's a die hard fan of HDR and lowered brightness disqualifies the TV in his eyes. In truth, you'll be better off buying a good TV with proper low persistence mode for gaming.

About flicker. CRTs flicker in a different way. Personally I can easily tell when my LCD strobes at 100Hz, just as easily as my CRT flickers at 85. That's due to the nature of phosphor, which doesn't switch off so suddenly.

There's no way around the rule FPS=HZ. So to get clear motion at 60fps, you need to strobe it at 60. This means flicker.
With 85-100 it's acceptable to many, at 120 it's acceptable to most.

There's not much we can do to improve the BFI situation. Sadly, recently we can observe the backward direction. New OLED TVs and panels from LG bring serious BFI limitations, not low persisitence friendly displays are showing up (this can be solved, check Chief Blurbuster's threads and messages on this and Laboratory forum section to learn more about this topic) and we have more and more games, which lack Motion blur OFF option, ray tracing is advertised as "super motion blur quality", badly degrading antialiasing technologies get more popular (TAA, FSR2, checkerboarding, to call the worst three) and Variable Rate Shading is being praised (this may be a good idea for static image and displays which add a ton of their own blur, but is visibly degrading on proper gaming displays)
So I guess this is not going tracktion as well as we'd like.
I think you misunderstood some of what I said. The problem of frame rate not dividing smoothly into the refresh rate can cause judder, not stutter.

In high frame rates, flickering technology enhances motion clarity. In lower frame rates, it can make the motion appear smoother. I have no issue with 24FPS expect some camera pans. They look far worse in modern sample and hold displays than they do with traditional flickering technologies like CRTs, film projectors (which generally refreshed at 48 or 72hertz) or plasma TVs.

I think I made a mistake, though, when I said that flickering improves motion clarity on 24FPS. No, it's only about reducing stutter caused by persistence of vision. The lack of clarity in fast motion is 24FPS is artistically intended, and I'm not fighting against that. I'm not one of those people who criticize motion blur in films, they are part of film magic (unless the director is a moron and obscures important details, like written text, with motion blur, or so much of stupid shaky cam action).

James Cameron is trying variable frame rate with Avatar The Way Of Water, and also his remaster of the original Avatar movie. 48FPS in some scenes, 24FPS for the most part.

Still, thanks for the answer.

Anonymous087312

Re: What are your suggestions for improving BFI?

Post by Anonymous087312 » 21 Oct 2022, 21:51

No more replies?

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Re: What are your suggestions for improving BFI?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 21 Oct 2022, 21:56

Usually this forum is for existing BFI technology, there are many BFI-improvement threads in Area 51.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8674
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10240
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10369
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10050
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9486

You might want to browse the "Laboratory" section of Blur Busters Forum, clicking "Display Science, Research & Engineering", and view the BFI threads there. It's a fascinating conversation.
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Anonymous087312

Re: What are your suggestions for improving BFI?

Post by Anonymous087312 » 09 Feb 2023, 18:06

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 21:56
Usually this forum is for existing BFI technology, there are many BFI-improvement threads in Area 51.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8674
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10240
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10369
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10050
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9486

You might want to browse the "Laboratory" section of Blur Busters Forum, clicking "Display Science, Research & Engineering", and view the BFI threads there. It's a fascinating conversation.
I have one more question: what should be the maximum amount of time that a frame is held on screen, so that we would have little to no stutter in 24p content shot with a shutter speed of 1/48th of a second? RTINGS seems to say that a good value would be less than 24 milisseconds. So, if we use OLED Motion Pro Medium, a setting that I think cuts persistence in half, like in the LG C1 model, does that mean far less stutter?

Another question: traditional film projectors didn't have issues with stutter because each frame was shown twice or three times, with a black frame in between. But for how long do digital projectors hold each frame? What is their flickering? Is their quality of motion worse than in old traditional projectors? I literally can't find anything online about the "shutter" of digital projectors, and how they compare to traditional ones.

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Re: What are your suggestions for improving BFI?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 10 Feb 2023, 15:41

Anonymous087312 wrote:
09 Feb 2023, 18:06
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 21:56
Usually this forum is for existing BFI technology, there are many BFI-improvement threads in Area 51.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8674
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10240
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10369
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10050
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9486

You might want to browse the "Laboratory" section of Blur Busters Forum, clicking "Display Science, Research & Engineering", and view the BFI threads there. It's a fascinating conversation.
I have one more question: what should be the maximum amount of time that a frame is held on screen, so that we would have little to no stutter in 24p content shot with a shutter speed of 1/48th of a second? RTINGS seems to say that a good value would be less than 24 milisseconds. So, if we use OLED Motion Pro Medium, a setting that I think cuts persistence in half, like in the LG C1 model, does that mean far less stutter?

Another question: traditional film projectors didn't have issues with stutter because each frame was shown twice or three times, with a black frame in between. But for how long do digital projectors hold each frame? What is their flickering? Is their quality of motion worse than in old traditional projectors? I literally can't find anything online about the "shutter" of digital projectors, and how they compare to traditional ones.
Motion blur hides stutter.

So lower persistence = stutter more visible.

Pick your poison.

(Exception: Single strobing, e.g. motion blur reduction at framerate=Hz by flashing only once per frame, but you never use that with 24Hz.)
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Anonymous087312

Re: What are your suggestions for improving BFI?

Post by Anonymous087312 » 10 Feb 2023, 16:20

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
10 Feb 2023, 15:41
Anonymous087312 wrote:
09 Feb 2023, 18:06
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
21 Oct 2022, 21:56
Usually this forum is for existing BFI technology, there are many BFI-improvement threads in Area 51.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8674
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10240
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10369
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10050
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9486

You might want to browse the "Laboratory" section of Blur Busters Forum, clicking "Display Science, Research & Engineering", and view the BFI threads there. It's a fascinating conversation.
I have one more question: what should be the maximum amount of time that a frame is held on screen, so that we would have little to no stutter in 24p content shot with a shutter speed of 1/48th of a second? RTINGS seems to say that a good value would be less than 24 milisseconds. So, if we use OLED Motion Pro Medium, a setting that I think cuts persistence in half, like in the LG C1 model, does that mean far less stutter?

Another question: traditional film projectors didn't have issues with stutter because each frame was shown twice or three times, with a black frame in between. But for how long do digital projectors hold each frame? What is their flickering? Is their quality of motion worse than in old traditional projectors? I literally can't find anything online about the "shutter" of digital projectors, and how they compare to traditional ones.
Motion blur hides stutter.

So lower persistence = stutter more visible.

Pick your poison.

(Exception: Single strobing, e.g. motion blur reduction at framerate=Hz by flashing only once per frame, but you never use that with 24Hz.)
True, I'm not criticizing motion blur here. I'm talking about how BFI reduces stutter because, according to the articles I've read from you, the blur of sample-and-hold displays, which happens because of how long the frames are held on the screen, becomes stutter if the frame rate is low enough. You called it the "stutter-to-blur continuum". That's the kind of stutter I'm talking about. Not micro-stutters or judder (uneven frame pacing).

But what I'm asking really is how does a digital projector work in comparison to a film one?

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Re: What are your suggestions for improving BFI?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 11 Feb 2023, 04:38

Anonymous087312 wrote:
10 Feb 2023, 16:20
True, I'm not criticizing motion blur here. I'm talking about how BFI reduces stutter because
I think that's a misinterpretation of some of the articles you read -- can you please point out to some examples;

I do give lots of tips about reducing BFI stutter (Stuttery BFI versus less stuttery BFI).

I also say that reduced motion blur makes stutters amplified.

Comparing stutter optimizations for (BFI vs BFI) versus stutter optimizations (BFI vs non-BFI) is apples versus oranges.

I don't say anywhere where BFI universally reduces stutter relative to non-BFI (BFI versus non-BFI). There are some cases where it can look smoother than non-BFI (perfect single-strobe framerate=Hz is key). Where BFI'd 60Hz looks smoother than non-BFI'd 60Hz.

But you don't want to strobe BFI at framerate=Hz at too low a frame rates. Perfect stutter-eliminating BFI for 24fps film would flicker at 24Hz very badly. So frame rates where BFI stops flickering, are generally also framerates where non-BFI stops stuttering.

It's the rare small window of framerates (frame rates high enough that BFI flicker is tolerable, but would stutter more visibly in non-BFI situations). A good example is the LG OLED BFI feature, where 60fps 60Hz non-BFI looks like it stutters more than 60fps 60Hz BFI. But when you're going lower frame rates, stutter looks generally worse with framerate-mismatch-Hz. Especially since most gaming monitors don't let you single-strobe (BFI) at less than 75-100Hz, and only a few lets you single-strobe down to 50-60Hz, which means lower frame rates are SOL for stutterless / duplicateless BFI.

Image

For a stutterless-looking BFI would require framerate=Hz, and thus you need framerates high enough not to flicker with single-strobe BFI, but framerates low enough to be stuttery. That's a very tight framerate range, sometimes nonexistent as the threshold can become identical on some displays -- as stutter is essentially the edge-flickering effect.

Note: For terminology purposes "strobing"="BFI", same end result whether it's a signal-based black frame or a strobe backlight.
Anonymous087312 wrote:
10 Feb 2023, 16:20
You called it the "stutter-to-blur continuum".
The stutter to blur continuum discussed is purely non-BFI use cases, and for game use cases (not movie use cases)

www.testufo.com/eyetracking#speed=-1 demoed on non-BFI displays.
Anonymous087312 wrote:
10 Feb 2023, 16:20
But what I'm asking really is how does a digital projector work in comparison to a film one?
24fps movies on standard 48Hz double-strobe film projector: Less motion blur, but feels more stuttery, also has double-image effect.

24fps movies on modern digital projector (sample and hold): More motion blur, less stuttery.

Some people prefer the formers; others prefer the latter. It's a personal preference.

BTW, a 35mm film projector can be simulated on PC via a 96Hz-capable display + DesktopBFI app, while playing windowed 24fps videos. (double strobing every 24fps frame twice, in a 4-refresh cycle cadence per movie frame, VISIBLE, BLACK, REPEAT VISIBLE, BLACK).
*Performance Tip: It also works best if DesktopBFI is launched in Administrator mode, and set it to REALTIME priority, and the video player set to BELOW-NORMAL mode, for less erratic flickering of software-based BFI. Also be noted about possible image retention effects of some LCDs due to unwanted interactions between software BFI and the panel's voltage inversion logic. Some workarounds exists.

P.S. Software-based double-image effect demo, for those unfamiliar with double image effect (e.g. CRT 30fps at 60Hz, or film projector 24fps at 48Hz double strobe):
www.testufo.com/blackframes#count=2&multistrobe=2&easteregg=1

BFI is fantastic in a Right Tool For The Right Job. But it's important to understand that using BFI to properly "fix stutter" for low frame rates will create more eyestrain than even a PAL 50Hz CRT.

A good compromise for some is double-strobe for movie material, as 48Hz flicker at 50% duty cycle is reasonably tolerable to most at standard cinematic brightness in a dark environment. The perception of stutter can be subtle enough if you are more sensitive to the blur reduction relative to the stutter increase, some hate it and some love it.
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Anonymous087312

Re: What are your suggestions for improving BFI?

Post by Anonymous087312 » 11 Feb 2023, 10:13

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
11 Feb 2023, 04:38
Anonymous087312 wrote:
10 Feb 2023, 16:20
True, I'm not criticizing motion blur here. I'm talking about how BFI reduces stutter because
I think that's a misinterpretation of some of the articles you read -- can you please point out to some examples;

I do give lots of tips about reducing BFI stutter (Stuttery BFI versus less stuttery BFI).

I also say that reduced motion blur makes stutters amplified.

Comparing stutter optimizations for (BFI vs BFI) versus stutter optimizations (BFI vs non-BFI) is apples versus oranges.

I don't say anywhere where BFI universally reduces stutter relative to non-BFI (BFI versus non-BFI). There are some cases where it can look smoother than non-BFI (perfect single-strobe framerate=Hz is key). Where BFI'd 60Hz looks smoother than non-BFI'd 60Hz.

But you don't want to strobe BFI at framerate=Hz at too low a frame rates. Perfect stutter-eliminating BFI for 24fps film would flicker at 24Hz very badly. So frame rates where BFI stops flickering, are generally also framerates where non-BFI stops stuttering.

It's the rare small window of framerates (frame rates high enough that BFI flicker is tolerable, but would stutter more visibly in non-BFI situations). A good example is the LG OLED BFI feature, where 60fps 60Hz non-BFI looks like it stutters more than 60fps 60Hz BFI. But when you're going lower frame rates, stutter looks generally worse with framerate-mismatch-Hz. Especially since most gaming monitors don't let you single-strobe (BFI) at less than 75-100Hz, and only a few lets you single-strobe down to 50-60Hz, which means lower frame rates are SOL for stutterless / duplicateless BFI.

Image

For a stutterless-looking BFI would require framerate=Hz, and thus you need framerates high enough not to flicker with single-strobe BFI, but framerates low enough to be stuttery. That's a very tight framerate range, sometimes nonexistent as the threshold can become identical on some displays -- as stutter is essentially the edge-flickering effect.

Note: For terminology purposes "strobing"="BFI", same end result whether it's a signal-based black frame or a strobe backlight.
Anonymous087312 wrote:
10 Feb 2023, 16:20
You called it the "stutter-to-blur continuum".
The stutter to blur continuum discussed is purely non-BFI use cases, and for game use cases (not movie use cases)

www.testufo.com/eyetracking#speed=-1 demoed on non-BFI displays.
Anonymous087312 wrote:
10 Feb 2023, 16:20
But what I'm asking really is how does a digital projector work in comparison to a film one?
24fps movies on standard 48Hz double-strobe film projector: Less motion blur, but feels more stuttery, also has double-image effect.

24fps movies on modern digital projector (sample and hold): More motion blur, less stuttery.

Some people prefer the formers; others prefer the latter. It's a personal preference.

BTW, a 35mm film projector can be simulated on PC via a 96Hz-capable display + DesktopBFI app, while playing windowed 24fps videos. (double strobing every 24fps frame twice, in a 4-refresh cycle cadence per movie frame, VISIBLE, BLACK, REPEAT VISIBLE, BLACK).
*Performance Tip: It also works best if DesktopBFI is launched in Administrator mode, and set it to REALTIME priority, and the video player set to BELOW-NORMAL mode, for less erratic flickering of software-based BFI. Also be noted about possible image retention effects of some LCDs due to unwanted interactions between software BFI and the panel's voltage inversion logic. Some workarounds exists.

P.S. Software-based double-image effect demo, for those unfamiliar with double image effect (e.g. CRT 30fps at 60Hz, or film projector 24fps at 48Hz double strobe):
www.testufo.com/blackframes#count=2&multistrobe=2&easteregg=1

BFI is fantastic in a Right Tool For The Right Job. But it's important to understand that using BFI to properly "fix stutter" for low frame rates will create more eyestrain than even a PAL 50Hz CRT.

A good compromise for some is double-strobe for movie material, as 48Hz flicker at 50% duty cycle is reasonably tolerable to most at standard cinematic brightness in a dark environment. The perception of stutter can be subtle enough if you are more sensitive to the blur reduction relative to the stutter increase, some hate it and some love it.
At this point, I would like to know what is your exact definition of stutter. I don't think that we are talking about the same thing.

A common complaint about modern OLED TVs is that they are sample-and-hold displays with such fast response times that they make films look stuttery in a way that they didn’t in plasma TVs or CRT. The kind of stutter I'm talking about is exactly the one from the stutter-to-blur continuum: how display motion blur from sample-and-hold displays becomes stutter at lower frame rates. I'm not talking about BFI stutter.

"Blur Busters Law still applies, except motion blur size is the stutter vibration amplitude instead.

Just like a guitar string that is plucked, high-Hz strings are blurry while low-Hz strings noticeably vibrate. The same is true for display blur versus stutter — Blur Busters Law is simply a function of frequency.

For low Hz where the Hz is so low, the normally high-frequency stutter no longer blends seamlessly into display motion blur. If you stare at www.testufo.com on a common 60 Hz LCD screen, you will see higher framerates tend to show motion blur while lower framerates tend to stutter (vibrate).

Low frame rates such as 15fps (whether be 15Hz, 30Hz, 60Hz or 120Hz sample-and-hold) will noticeably stutter. Instead of '50 pixels of motion blur' it reads as '50 pixels of stutter amplitude' (the vibrate-back-and-fourth span).

However, once the stutter is high-frequency (e.g. 60fps or 120fps) the 60 or 120 stutters per second vibrates so fast, it just blends into motion blur."

If we want to eliminate the sample-and-hold display blur from high frame rates, which becomes sample-and-hold display stutter at the lower frame rates (like the frame rate of film, with stutter being most noticeable in panning shots), we should lower the persistence, right? That means decreasing the amount of time a frame is shown in the screen.

Yes, I'm aware of the double, triple, and so on, motion artifact when refresh rate doesn't match frame rate. But that's not the "stutter" I'm talking about, that's not the motion artifact I'm talking about or complaining about.

I'm also asking all of this because I know of experiences of people with OLEDs saying the BFI makes movie motion far better and less stuttery in their OLEDs.

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