Are some people better just off without ULMB?

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
olain
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Joined: 06 Dec 2022, 07:10

Are some people better just off without ULMB?

Post by olain » 06 Dec 2022, 07:25

My first post here, long time lurker.

I own a Acer XB271HU 165 hz display w. dedicated G-Sync HW, and it was a big upgrade from my old BenQ XL2420T 120 hz display w/o G-Sync. Having played FPS titles a while with G-sync engaged, FPS capped @ 160 FPS/hz, I tried the old BenQ, and it was unplayable for me.
The smoothness of G-Sync with OD set to Normal was just perfect.

But now I am in search of a new display, to give me and edge with regards to display response time and input lag.
So I've read up on the latest tech for 1440p 240+ hz monitors.
I have a PC that can output 240-300 FPS in my favorite game @ 1440p, so this is what I am looking for.

I see that more or less half of the popular 1440p 240 hz do not come with a version of BFI/DyAc/ELMB/ULMB, and I am asking if I should opt for a model that has this.

My only experience with ULMB, is from the Acer XB271HU. I set the hz to 120, enabled ULMB, and immediately the display dimmed down, I changed some color and brightness settings to mitigate the dimming, but I also thought ULMB was straining on my eyes. I played for 2 minutes and it was no way nearly as fluid as without ULMB +g-sync. It was downright terrible.

This makes me wonder, could it be that the particular Acer model has a terrible feature for which I can see absolutely no use case, in that case why would they even make it? Has the tech matured? Is it better @ 240 hz? Why do so many displays come without this feature?

Finally, could this be down to the user?
Full disclosure, I consider myself super sensitive when it comes to my perception of fluid FPS gameplay. For instance if I don't cap the FPS, I will notice the tearing and stuttering that appears at high refresh rates outside the limit of my 165 hz G-sync display, to the point that it bothers me.

Kyouki
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Re: Are some people better just off without ULMB?

Post by Kyouki » 06 Dec 2022, 17:13

I'm glad you realized how nice Gsync is, its underrated good tech.
--- on topic
As someone who went from an ASUS PG279Q ULMB@120hz to a Alienware AW2521H ULMB@240hz...

I like it a lot more on the on the newer Alienware model; which was faster in response time; lesser dimming (?) - not only was it higher in refresh rate it also just feels much nicer to use.
I've heard of people getting eyestrain, I think I had this at the start but not seeing it or getting it anymore... Seemingly adjusted to it.

With this whole experience I learned a lot that I am more of an object tracker for players rather than fixed gaze point, that's why ULMB or any blur reduction helps for me. At the same time, I also noticed that I am sensitive to blur and that any form of reduction for me it's much better. TAA and stuff like that tears my eyes up like super badly and it actually makes me incapable of playing some games where it might be enforced...

So yeah, I do believe it depends on monitor, entirely. But also, on what type of gamer you are. :)
CPU: AMD R7 5800x3D ~ PBO2Tuner -30 ~ no C states
RAM: Gskill Bdie 2x16gb TridentZ Neo ~ CL16-16-16-36 1T ~ fine tuned latency
GPU: ASUS TUF 3080 10G OC Edition(v1/non-LHR) ~ disabled Pstates ~ max oced
OS: Fine tuned Windows 10 Pro, manual tuned.
Monitor: Alienware AW2521H ~ mix of ULMB/Gsync @ 240hz/360hz
More specs: https://kit.co/Kyouki/the-pc-that-stomps-you

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Discorz
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Re: Are some people better just off without ULMB?

Post by Discorz » 07 Dec 2022, 02:41

Everybody would play better with blur reduction features if they were done right and people didn't have eyestrain issues.

Unfortunately ULMB was designed to work without gsync and if frame rate is not equal to refresh rate than some tearing and microstutter/jitter can be noticed. Especially in low persistence and low refresh rate modes where its even easier to notice. So for perfect strobing we must hold onto Hz=FPS rule, preferably with perfectly flat frame times. But its hard to maintain perfect frame rate cap without vsync or tinkering around with third-party limiters and introducing additional lag.

On sample and hold display (strobing OFF, VRR ON):
when FPS<Hz u get ideal motion with blur doubling
when FPS>Hz u get micro stutters and tearing
when FPS=Hz u get ideal motion

On strobed display (strobing ON, VRR OFF):
when FPS<Hz u get dublicate images/blur doubling, amplified microstutters and tearing
when FPS>Hz u get amplified micro stutters and tearing
when FPS=Hz u get ideal motion

There are very few monitors that allow strobing + vrr to work simultaneously but implementations are not done quite right (due to pwm fill).

On strobed vrr display (strobing ON, VRR ON):
when FPS<Hz u get ideal motion
when FPS>Hz u get amplified micro stutters and tearing
when FPS=Hz u get ideal motion

Usually I don't recommend these but if your frame rate is not fluctuating all over the place and u don't mind some crosstalk I guess its worth a try. M27Q X, MAG274QRX, XG27AQM and FI32Q X have vrr strobing.
Compare UFOs | Do you use Blur Reduction? | Smooth Frog | Latency Split Test
Alienware AW2521H, Gigabyte M32Q, Asus VG279QM, Alienware AW2518HF, AOC C24G1, AOC G2790PX, Setup

Kyouki
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Re: Are some people better just off without ULMB?

Post by Kyouki » 07 Dec 2022, 07:51

Discorz wrote:
07 Dec 2022, 02:41
-
Let's say we got a game that gets enough framerate, would ingame/external fps limiters make a difference in this? :?:

Internal means you're lowering engine max, usually which ends up lowering the ceiling.
External means you're capping somewhere at the end of the pipeline and thus not limit the ceiling.
External examples being RTSS/Nvidia Control Panel.

From my understanding/learning... at least.
CPU: AMD R7 5800x3D ~ PBO2Tuner -30 ~ no C states
RAM: Gskill Bdie 2x16gb TridentZ Neo ~ CL16-16-16-36 1T ~ fine tuned latency
GPU: ASUS TUF 3080 10G OC Edition(v1/non-LHR) ~ disabled Pstates ~ max oced
OS: Fine tuned Windows 10 Pro, manual tuned.
Monitor: Alienware AW2521H ~ mix of ULMB/Gsync @ 240hz/360hz
More specs: https://kit.co/Kyouki/the-pc-that-stomps-you

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Discorz
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Re: Are some people better just off without ULMB?

Post by Discorz » 09 Dec 2022, 04:23

Kyouki wrote:
07 Dec 2022, 07:51
Let's say we got a game that gets enough framerate, would ingame/external fps limiters make a difference in this? :?:
Not sure if I understand the question, but for VRR it does make a difference. For ideal, smooth motion we must cap frame rate to stay within VRR range or use Hz=FPS without VRR.
Compare UFOs | Do you use Blur Reduction? | Smooth Frog | Latency Split Test
Alienware AW2521H, Gigabyte M32Q, Asus VG279QM, Alienware AW2518HF, AOC C24G1, AOC G2790PX, Setup

Kyouki
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Re: Are some people better just off without ULMB?

Post by Kyouki » 09 Dec 2022, 05:57

Discorz wrote:
09 Dec 2022, 04:23
Kyouki wrote:
07 Dec 2022, 07:51
Let's say we got a game that gets enough framerate, would ingame/external fps limiters make a difference in this? :?:
Not sure if I understand the question, but for VRR it does make a difference. For ideal, smooth motion we must cap frame rate to stay within VRR range or use Hz=FPS without VRR.
is it better to cap using internal framerate limitors; or externally like NVCP/RTSS? Within each operative monitor mode Strobed or VRR.

Internal lowers the max you get, if the game suffer from stuttering it may max out at lower values -- while if you do it externally you only cap within that range at the end of the rendering thus allowing to reach higher max values, and have less difference between it.
CPU: AMD R7 5800x3D ~ PBO2Tuner -30 ~ no C states
RAM: Gskill Bdie 2x16gb TridentZ Neo ~ CL16-16-16-36 1T ~ fine tuned latency
GPU: ASUS TUF 3080 10G OC Edition(v1/non-LHR) ~ disabled Pstates ~ max oced
OS: Fine tuned Windows 10 Pro, manual tuned.
Monitor: Alienware AW2521H ~ mix of ULMB/Gsync @ 240hz/360hz
More specs: https://kit.co/Kyouki/the-pc-that-stomps-you

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Discorz
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Re: Are some people better just off without ULMB?

Post by Discorz » 10 Dec 2022, 05:20

Kyouki wrote:
09 Dec 2022, 05:57
is it better to cap using internal framerate limitors; or externally like NVCP/RTSS? Within each operative monitor mode Strobed or VRR.

Internal lowers the max you get, if the game suffer from stuttering it may max out at lower values -- while if you do it externally you only cap within that range at the end of the rendering thus allowing to reach higher max values, and have less difference between it.
Someone else might answer this better but from my research I found recommended settings (vrr+cap+vsync) to be smoothest because it removes possible additional tearing. Vsync in vrr should not add lag when capped properly. Although some games and monitors worked just as well without vsync. External limiters always added extra lag no matter what combination of capping I tried. All off provided least amount of latency. All this is at least true for games I tested.

Ideally we want to see game limiters with perfectly flat frame times like RTSS but without extra lag. For strobing without vrr you definitely want RTSS or vsync like consistency.
Compare UFOs | Do you use Blur Reduction? | Smooth Frog | Latency Split Test
Alienware AW2521H, Gigabyte M32Q, Asus VG279QM, Alienware AW2518HF, AOC C24G1, AOC G2790PX, Setup

Kyouki
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Joined: 20 Jul 2022, 04:52

Re: Are some people better just off without ULMB?

Post by Kyouki » 10 Dec 2022, 08:08

Discorz wrote:
10 Dec 2022, 05:20
Kyouki wrote:
09 Dec 2022, 05:57
is it better to cap using internal framerate limitors; or externally like NVCP/RTSS? Within each operative monitor mode Strobed or VRR.

Internal lowers the max you get, if the game suffer from stuttering it may max out at lower values -- while if you do it externally you only cap within that range at the end of the rendering thus allowing to reach higher max values, and have less difference between it.
Someone else might answer this better but from my research I found recommended settings (vrr+cap+vsync) to be smoothest because it removes possible additional tearing. Vsync in vrr should not add lag when capped properly. Although some games and monitors worked just as well without vsync. External limiters always added extra lag no matter what combination of capping I tried. All off provided least amount of latency. All this is at least true for games I tested.

Ideally we want to see game limiters with perfectly flat frame times like RTSS but without extra lag. For strobing without vrr you definitely want RTSS or vsync like consistency.
Thank you! Sorry for being vague in the question. I'll test it out some more.
CPU: AMD R7 5800x3D ~ PBO2Tuner -30 ~ no C states
RAM: Gskill Bdie 2x16gb TridentZ Neo ~ CL16-16-16-36 1T ~ fine tuned latency
GPU: ASUS TUF 3080 10G OC Edition(v1/non-LHR) ~ disabled Pstates ~ max oced
OS: Fine tuned Windows 10 Pro, manual tuned.
Monitor: Alienware AW2521H ~ mix of ULMB/Gsync @ 240hz/360hz
More specs: https://kit.co/Kyouki/the-pc-that-stomps-you

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Discorz
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Re: Are some people better just off without ULMB?

Post by Discorz » 10 Dec 2022, 08:32

Kyouki wrote:
10 Dec 2022, 08:08
Thank you! Sorry for being vague in the question. I'll test it out some more.
I believe you have AW2521H? Nvidia's reflex latency analyzer can get you the latency numbers.
Compare UFOs | Do you use Blur Reduction? | Smooth Frog | Latency Split Test
Alienware AW2521H, Gigabyte M32Q, Asus VG279QM, Alienware AW2518HF, AOC C24G1, AOC G2790PX, Setup

Kyouki
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Re: Are some people better just off without ULMB?

Post by Kyouki » 10 Dec 2022, 09:37

Discorz wrote:
10 Dec 2022, 08:32
Kyouki wrote:
10 Dec 2022, 08:08
Thank you! Sorry for being vague in the question. I'll test it out some more.
I believe you have AW2521H? Nvidia's reflex latency analyzer can get you the latency numbers.
Correct, though I do not have GeForce experience or the overlay... so cannot use that. ^_~ (my mistake/choice though)
can use CapFrameX to achieve the same stats.

Here is also more:
https://old.reddit.com/r/allbenchmarks/ ... atuner_vs/
CPU: AMD R7 5800x3D ~ PBO2Tuner -30 ~ no C states
RAM: Gskill Bdie 2x16gb TridentZ Neo ~ CL16-16-16-36 1T ~ fine tuned latency
GPU: ASUS TUF 3080 10G OC Edition(v1/non-LHR) ~ disabled Pstates ~ max oced
OS: Fine tuned Windows 10 Pro, manual tuned.
Monitor: Alienware AW2521H ~ mix of ULMB/Gsync @ 240hz/360hz
More specs: https://kit.co/Kyouki/the-pc-that-stomps-you

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