Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
RonsonPL
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Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by RonsonPL » 20 Jan 2023, 08:20

Hi.

Here's the article
https://www.roadtovr.com/pimax-crystal- ... 2023-blur/

Sorry to bring you guys the bad news, but I was very concerned, scared even, about the upcoming VR headsets once I saw the info about HDR.
This article informs that Pimax Crystal's motion reproduction is a disaster.
And the author mentions that Sony's PSVR2 has serious issues as well.

Well. Seems I was right, unfortunately. Contrary to the author of this article, I have no hope left at this point. It's way too close to release dates for both companies. I don't think there will be any changes.

Newest line of OLED TVs from LG doesn't even mention motion in their marketing slides.
So we're regressing and regressing fast. :(


So, what we know so far:
- there is not a single local dimmed display capable of handling low persistence mode correctly
- PSVR. Sony says it's a "HDR display". People who tried PSVR2 complain about both OLED black smearing (if nobody fixed that since 2014, I don't think it will ever get fixed) and about motion clarity. There's a chance it's just stupidity and a choice to set 60fps on a 120Hz display, but...
- now Pimax Crystal shows serious issues. This one is an LCD but local dimmed. Since there's no LCD panel that handles motion well with local dimming, this looks bad
- the upcoming Pimax 12K will use the same tech as Pimax Crystal

Literally, the most interesting piece of tech that is to be released within foreseable future, just stopped being interesting whatsoever to me and to everyone who values quality motion in games.







I am not able to afford Pimax 12K nor the PC it requires. (13900K/7700X3D + 4090 as minimum) But I really wanted this to exist. To look forward to. To have something to save up for. Even if it would take years for me. I really, really thought Pimax 12K will be THE VR headset I wait for since early 1990s.
After seeing the trends in TV industry, this was the last hope.
Sight. I guess I'd better take care of my Quest 2. At least this thing handles motion very well. Too bad it feels like looking through toilet paper rolls. Pimax 12K was supposed to bring the real "Wide FOV" experience. First consumer headset with true 180°, good vertical FOV AND good optics (lenses).
Also, in my opinion, VR was the only hope to get clear motion popularized in mainstream. If people would see the advantages in VR, they would be treating the blur on TVs in a different way, demanding this to be imrpoved by TV manufacturers. But now the last bastion of hope disappears. The whole gaming industry is anti-motion now, with all the motion blur and temporal reconstruction techniques, which do and always will hurt motion. The VRR, the VRS (variable rate shading), the HDR, the 40fps modes on consoles being praised on Digital Foundry. The push towards UE5 (horrible motion quality!) and raytracing (definitely not enough power to get native 120fps for LP mode or for interpolation 120->960). Most games don't even allow you to disable TAA on PC. There are no assets/settings for no-TAA mode, so the games look broken, with heavily undersampled shadows and reflections - even playing at 8K won't fix that. This causes the lack of content for the displays capable of motion handling, whenever they show up in mainstream.
Many games have framerate caps. Even after 360Hz monitors released years ago, we still have caps at 150-200fps in many games.

If VR doesn't "carry the torch of enlightment" then I don't know what will. :(

cgeorgiu
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by cgeorgiu » 23 Feb 2023, 12:15

I had hopes this was not the case but it is indeed true. Not only do some games run at 60fps on a 120hz refresh like horizon call of the mountain but there is noticible persistence blur.

It is definitely because of the brightness increase.

The “good” news is that if you lower the brightness the motion clarity increases. But to make it look decent I had to put it to the minimum from my quick experiments.

This looks far dimmer than my valve index.

The PSVR2 is a massive disappointment for me so far.

It looks even more dim than my LG CX at 60hz with MAX BFI when it has good motion clarity.
Last edited by cgeorgiu on 23 Feb 2023, 16:07, edited 1 time in total.

RonsonPL
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by RonsonPL » 23 Feb 2023, 13:19

cgeorgiu wrote:
23 Feb 2023, 12:15
The psvr2 is a massive disappointment for me so far.
Thank you. Much appreciated. I've looked at multiple reviews and couldn't find any info beyond casual observations, by people who don't know much about low persistence or motion.

If you say the brightness setting substantially affects the motion quality, I guess there's no chance of a mistake, like seeing 60->120fps reprojection instead of true 120fps.
The console menu or some simpler games should be running at native 120fps, I guess.


The rest is just me rambling about the state of VR.

The reviewers praise the headset for its brightness. That didn't make much sense as it's an OLED, not an LCD, so the brightness cannot be that much better. Well, now we know why. I hate dull, washed out picture. I'd love to have some more brightness and contrast on my monitor. I could set the strobe utility to the brightest setting.

But I never did and never will. Cause I'm a gamer and I know motion clarity matters more for the enjoyment than brighter picture.

Black smearing typical for OLED HMDs, combined with fresnels instead of pancake lenses, and the fact the two biggest games use only reprojection and 60fps instead of 120.. - It all seems like the new Sony management is as bad as we feared it is.

All those design choices are focused on casuals. Core gamers wanted the PSVR sooner. Sony said they postponed PSVR2 by 2 years because people wouldn't afford the PS5 and another expense. They were wrong. Casuals wouldn't, but core gamers would - if only the incentive was good enough - so a good hardware with a very strong game line-up and good prospects for the future AAA VR games supply.

Core gamers wanted more AAA games. Instead we have lack of any teasers for AAA VR games for 2023 and 2024, and focusing on social features instead (foveated rendering is more for social than it is for performance, as its cost could improve the experience in other ways) and things like HDR, This just doesn't bode well for the future of PSVR2 or highend PC VR.

Core gamers would not boycott the PSVR2 because it had no HDR, poor social interactions or graphics detail levels way worse than what average game on PS5 looks like. PSVR2 is not the product for casuals. It's for core gamers. They should've been the main focus.
And just like with Oculus and Facebook failing at VR because they focused on non-gaming and social VR first while not bothering with core gamers, I am sure Sony made a big mistake here as well.
The old management had more "gamer's perspective". The new one seemed like a typical corpo-suits from the very beginning and this is sadly the exact thing that came to my mind when I read the news about the changes at Sony a few years ago.
GT7 VR looks like the dev did it out of necessity and against their own will.
The team behind Astro Bot didn't prepare any game for PSVR2 launch lineup.
Horizon game was supposed to be the first truly huge AAA VR game that will prove that VR doesn't have to be all about the small minigames. It's a good game but it is not of the scale we've hoped for.
Very soon after PS2 was released, we could see the teasers of new generation of games. Gran Turismo 3, Jak & Daxter, Devil May Cry.
We're after the launch of PSVR2, which was delayed by 1 or 2 years. Where are the teasers of something really big?
I even saw a youtuber saying his recommendation for PSVR2 is not to buy it now, but to wait for more games so the purchase can be justified. He also said he's worried about Sony doing another "Vita" with PSVR2.

Let's hope not, but if people at Sony didn't wake up by now, there may be too late to change the course. The iceberg called "not enough awesome AAA VR games" may cause too much damage upon impact.
It's always those corpo-suit idiots who ruin it for us gamers. Just like abandoning PC VR by Valve or Facebook, just like releasing PSVR1 based on PS3's Move controllers. Just like releasing first Oculus Rift with Xone controller instead of touch controller from the start. It's always. Those. Cluless. Corporate. Idiots. :(

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jorimt
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by jorimt » 23 Feb 2023, 14:21

RonsonPL wrote:
23 Feb 2023, 13:19
cgeorgiu wrote:
23 Feb 2023, 12:15
If either of you are already into PC VR (or looking into it), keep an eye out for Bigscreen Beyond:
https://www.bigscreenvr.com/

A couple of insider VR YouTubers I follow have helped test it (among others) for the past couple of years, and both have said they will consider replacing their Index with the Beyond as their daily-drivers once the production models release. And that's saying something, since both of them have seen many other upcoming VR products with similar specs and have passed on them all (as their main) thus far.

I've pre-ordered one myself. Hopefully it will pan out, because (barring the 90Hz max refresh rate, a necessary evil to allow the remaining specs) it's exactly what I've personally been looking for in my next PC VR headset.

As for standalone/non-PC VR, yeah, besides the already aging Quest 2, there's really nothing going on right now, with the recently released PSVR2 effectively being a swing-and-a-miss hardware-wise (the brightness/persistence trade-off decision is brutal).
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

cgeorgiu
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by cgeorgiu » 23 Feb 2023, 16:43

I have a few more updates. I played Star Wars tales from the galaxy's edge and managed to find the sweet spot of brightness and motion clarity.

The game runs at a native refresh rate so there is no double image.

The image looks ok motion wise when the brightness is at 25%. The motion blur was so bad at default brightness that if you moved the head left and right while keeping your eyes focused on an object, the whole image would warp like jello. I honestly don't know how Sony released the product in this state and it is honestly gut wrenching.

This is with dark scenes as well so the BFI is not dynamic based on image brightness.

Another problem is black smearing which is really bad with this headset. For reference I had the original Rift, PSVR1, Quest 1 and 2 and still have a valve index.

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jorimt
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by jorimt » 23 Feb 2023, 17:27

cgeorgiu wrote:
23 Feb 2023, 16:43
Another problem is black smearing which is really bad with this headset.
Sounds like it needs a method similar to what LG does to counteract near-black smearing on their own current-gen OLED panels, but said method introduces another artifact called near-black chrominance overshoot.

OLED typically has a hard time natively switching out of black to near-black without causing smearing.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

Zodasaur
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by Zodasaur » 23 Feb 2023, 17:42

That really sucks that Big Screen VR requires an overpriced iPhone in order to buy one. What a bizarre deal breaker for non Apple users/rich people. I'm starting to feel like it's futile waiting for a next generation headset and that perhaps I should just get the Valve Index dispite it's age.

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jorimt
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by jorimt » 23 Feb 2023, 17:51

Zodasaur wrote:
23 Feb 2023, 17:42
That really sucks that Big Screen VR requires an overpriced iPhone in order to buy one. What a bizarre deal breaker for non Apple users/rich people. I'm starting to feel like it's futile waiting for a next generation headset and that perhaps I should just get the Valve Index dispite it's age.
Technically, you could buy a used iPhone XR, download the scanning app, and use it once (meh), or use a friend's (more viable), but yeah, not ideal. Hopefully they'll expand the app to other devices in time (may have to do with the camera requirements).

As for the Index, I've owned it, a Quest 2 and a HP Reverb G2, and other than the relatively outdate (but not unacceptable) resolution of the displays, the Index is still technically the best jack-of-all-trades PC VR headset around (there are serious trade-offs on the higher fidelity headsets, currently), and if you invest in the whole kit, you'll be able to use your controllers and base stations with any future headset that supports them.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

RonsonPL
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by RonsonPL » 24 Feb 2023, 18:02

jorimt wrote:
23 Feb 2023, 17:51

As for the Index, I've owned it, a Quest 2 and a HP Reverb G2, and other than the relatively outdate (but not unacceptable) resolution of the displays, the Index is still technically the best jack-of-all-trades PC VR headset around (there are serious trade-offs on the higher fidelity headsets, currently), and if you invest in the whole kit, you'll be able to use your controllers and base stations with any future headset that supports them.
Careful. Index, not unlike Quest 2 or Pimax, is far from high quality, durable piece of hardware. Just take a look at YT and watch some videos about Indexes flaws. Search for "don't buy Index" "problems with index". Cons:
- very common issues with cable (might be fixed in newer revisions, I'm not sure) and controllers. Rarely work after 2 years of frequent use and are very expensive to replace (read also below)
- Index price is insane for 2023. It still costs 1000$+tax, while it's technologically very outdated now.
- it has the worst Fresnel Lens downsides (so called "god rays")
- the tracking is really good, but very likely already abandoned. I'm sure if Valve ever returns to PC VR again (sadly, it's not even certain) it will have inside-out tracking. Replacing a malfunctioning Lighthouse sensor or Knuckles controller in 2025 might simply be impossible. I'd be worried about third party support as well. Maybe now there are some on the horizon. Pimax and maybe two more. But when there are no more trackers and controllers being sold, surely this will die out and Steam has "out of stock" on lighthouses and controllers alone for quite some time now. Basically, you'd need to buy the full package of Index VR and resell the HMD to get the rest. Not ideal.
- the upgrade choices are evaporating. HP VR is dead after MS killed their VR software, which was used by HP Reverb G1 and G2. There were rumours about throwing all the plans for PC into a trashcan and after 1.5 years since that, I'm leaning towards believing those rumors were true. They talk more about Steam Deck 2 than PCVR. I'm afraid it will be a change of direction towards standalone VR. Maybe Deck 2 will be like Pimax portal. Or maybe they will do the reasonable thing and allow you to carry the computer on your belt, with a small short cable connecting it to the display. This would make sense. 30-35W of power easily possible, outpacing 5-10W Quest 2 by quite a lot. Deck 2 might have enough power for very low settings for most of the simpler PC VR games.
Anyway. I really do think there's no chance for anything other than inside-out tracking. I'm not happy with the level of Quest 2 tracking. I'd rather have Lighthouse based system, but seems inside-out became a standard. Most people would not understand why they're supposed to drop the positives of inside-out tracking for better accuracy of outside-in solutions.


jorimt wrote:
23 Feb 2023, 17:27
cgeorgiu wrote:
23 Feb 2023, 16:43
Another problem is black smearing which is really bad with this headset.
Sounds like it needs a method similar to what LG does to counteract near-black smearing on their own current-gen OLED panels, but said method introduces another artifact called near-black chrominance overshoot.

OLED typically has a hard time natively switching out of black to near-black without causing smearing.
So there's no change since 2014 when I tested Rift Development Kit 2. It had bad OLED smearing and the remedy was to basically abandon the real black, as there were issues. To counter, you'd need to bascically replace true black with a greyish tone. The smearing was anything from not noticeable to horrible. I remember a deer head in w wooden house. Its nose looked like some smoke comes out of it whenever there was any head motion with eyes focused on it.


jorimt wrote:
23 Feb 2023, 14:21

If either of you are already into PC VR (or looking into it), keep an eye out for Bigscreen Beyond:
https://www.bigscreenvr.com/
it's exactly what I've personally been looking for in my next PC VR headset.
I hope you'll like it but for me it's far off what I expected in 2014 to appear by 2020. I mean FOV. I want the really wide and tall FOV.
So
- 1000$ + VAT = 1230$. Plus 600-700 for base stations and Index controllers. Thats' almost 2000$. Way above what I could afford and I would consider taking a loan for this only if it was THE headset I'm waiting for since 1994.

Pimax 12K will have the FOV and many other boxes "ticket". But the display is unfortunalely very likely to be very poor in terms of motion quality, which would (will? :( ) disqualify it for me. Then there's price. With tax, shipping and tracking and decent controllers, it would be 3000-4500€.
Way too much. And I'd have to pay for standalone and ultra high-res, which is not what I'd use anyway. You acn get used Quest 2 for 300€ for standalone games with far better game library. And the higher res - no thanks. RTX 4090 is the first card to allow decent settings on Pimax 8K or even Reverb G2 in many games. It's still far from ultra settings, mind you.
Foveated rendering or not, RTX 4090 will be the bare minimum and likely not enough.
6000€ for just VR HMD and the GPU to run it on?
Well. For me, even if it's the VR I'm dreaming about since 1994, it's just beyond my reach.


There's a project focused on community-first approach. Opensource code, no concerns about privacy etc. I like that one.
https://somniumspace.medium.com/somnium ... 3e9dabd9b7
It's not going to be cheap and it's not going to have wide FOV, but maybe it will be a better option than old Index or other currently available choices.

Zodasaur
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by Zodasaur » 24 Feb 2023, 18:26

@RonsinPL Thanks a lot for all that info

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