Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
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tygeezy
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by tygeezy » 27 Feb 2023, 19:46

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 15:11
thatoneguy wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 12:37
I think PSVR2 is using double-strobe
That's just a reprojection artifact.

Long-term, reprojection needs to also function on local object movements (e.g. hand controller tracking etc).

Low persistence sample-and-hold via flickerfree brute Hz combined with large reprojection ratios would be vastly superior to flicker-based low persistence. Then artifacts would simply be brief moments of extra motion blur on non-reprojected objects, instead of duplicate images. As long as all objects are reprojected, that fixes the motion blur.

A VR world could generate 100fps which is then reprojected to 1000-4000fps (practical during the 2030s according to our math)
When are we getting micro oled 1000 hz vr displays!? That would be incredible.

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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 27 Feb 2023, 20:55

I have no idea yet.

But I feel confident that 1000Hz consumer displays will arrive before the end of this decade.

There will be a bunch of new 1000Hz-related articles on Blur Busters soon.
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NeonPizza
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by NeonPizza » 27 Feb 2023, 21:55

I can't believe Sony left the default Brightness/motion this way. Everybody is getting a far crappier impression of PSVR2 because of the out of box higher motion persistence. It's like gaming through the eyes of somebody that has one too many drinks, how is that enjoyable?

And while lowering brightness to the lowest setting is a god send at reducing motion blur, it clobbers too much brightness. the picture looks dull, probably just as dull as PSVR1's, maybe more so? Can't remember exactly.

But ya, I have yet to play anything at 90 or 120fps yet, so i can't comment on how well either reduce blur. 120 should eliminate motion doubling correct? As is, after experiencing a small handful of VR2 games, i can't help but feel a little underwhelmed. I thought the vent would of by passed having to wait 20 minutes or so for the PSVR2 to boot up, to prevent lens fogging. But nope, you still have to wait just as you did for PSVR1. Can't stand the cable either, i'm pretty much over 'tethered' VR. And after 10 minutes or so of wearing the headset, my head and upper body starts to get hot. And I don't know about you guys, but the VR2 is less comfortable than the first. it's rough around the nose and i can't stand wearing the the thing for more than 15 minutes. It already NEEDS a 3rd party cushioned Light shield. :P

I've had the thing for 3 days now and I'm already sick of it. Yet i HAVE to play through Resident Evil: Village VR. it's a must and it's the only new VR title so far based on what little that I've played has impressed me. Enjoying Tentacular too, Moss Book 2 and the upgraded Vacation Simulator. However, Kayak Marage VR left me disappointed, and Call of the Mountain has been a complete mixed bag.

Negatives >

* Cable/tethered. Which is a big annoying VR barrier that makes the experience less convenient, cumbersome and sloppy
* Headset is uncomfortable around nose.
* Motion blur at even 'decent' brightness (Have to keep it at 1-2 on the slider bar, anymore and it gradually gets out of hand)
* Head and upper body get hot quickly during use
* Big chunky fat front visor
* Rings on VR controllers
* In order to get good motion you have to settle for low brightness.


Positives compared to PSVR1 >

Deeper Black levels
Resolution is MUCH better
Passthrough mode
Guardian Wand play area setting
Actual VR controllers
Inside out Motion tracking
etc

Anyhoo, any recommendations for 90 & 120fps PSVR2 games?

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tygeezy
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by tygeezy » 27 Feb 2023, 23:19

NeonPizza wrote:
27 Feb 2023, 21:55
I can't believe Sony left the default Brightness/motion this way. Everybody is getting a far crappier impression of PSVR2 because of the out of box higher motion persistence. It's like gaming through the eyes of somebody that has one too many drinks, how is that enjoyable?

And while lowering brightness to the lowest setting is a god send at reducing motion blur, it clobbers too much brightness. the picture looks dull, probably just as dull as PSVR1's, maybe more so? Can't remember exactly.

But ya, I have yet to play anything at 90 or 120fps yet, so i can't comment on how well either reduce blur. 120 should eliminate motion doubling correct? As is, after experiencing a small handful of VR2 games, i can't help but feel a little underwhelmed. I thought the vent would of by passed having to wait 20 minutes or so for the PSVR2 to boot up, to prevent lens fogging. But nope, you still have to wait just as you did for PSVR1. Can't stand the cable either, i'm pretty much over 'tethered' VR. And after 10 minutes or so of wearing the headset, my head and upper body starts to get hot. And I don't know about you guys, but the VR2 is less comfortable than the first. it's rough around the nose and i can't stand wearing the the thing for more than 15 minutes. It already NEEDS a 3rd party cushioned Light shield. :P

I've had the thing for 3 days now and I'm already sick of it. Yet i HAVE to play through Resident Evil: Village VR. it's a must and it's the only new VR title so far based on what little that I've played has impressed me. Enjoying Tentacular too, Moss Book 2 and the upgraded Vacation Simulator. However, Kayak Marage VR left me disappointed, and Call of the Mountain has been a complete mixed bag.

Negatives >

* Cable/tethered. Which is a big annoying VR barrier that makes the experience less convenient, cumbersome and sloppy
* Headset is uncomfortable around nose.
* Motion blur at even 'decent' brightness (Have to keep it at 1-2 on the slider bar, anymore and it gradually gets out of hand)
* Head and upper body get hot quickly during use
* Big chunky fat front visor
* Rings on VR controllers
* In order to get good motion you have to settle for low brightness.


Positives compared to PSVR1 >

Deeper Black levels
Resolution is MUCH better
Passthrough mode
Guardian Wand play area setting
Actual VR controllers
Inside out Motion tracking
etc

Anyhoo, any recommendations for 90 & 120fps PSVR2 games?
I’m still getting the blur even with brightness set to minimum. The only cure I have found is to play a native 90hz game. The only one I have is pavlov. I know song in the smoke is also native 90hz and even has a native 120 hz mode. It also is using eye tracked foveated rendering unlike a lot of the launch titles. If you like survival games I think you should pick that up since the devs worked really hard to take advantage of all the features and provide the best experience possible.

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NeonPizza
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by NeonPizza » 28 Feb 2023, 03:12

tygeezy wrote:
27 Feb 2023, 23:19
NeonPizza wrote:
27 Feb 2023, 21:55
I can't believe Sony left the default Brightness/motion this way. Everybody is getting a far crappier impression of PSVR2 because of the out of box higher motion persistence. It's like gaming through the eyes of somebody that has one too many drinks, how is that enjoyable?

And while lowering brightness to the lowest setting is a god send at reducing motion blur, it clobbers too much brightness. the picture looks dull, probably just as dull as PSVR1's, maybe more so? Can't remember exactly.

But ya, I have yet to play anything at 90 or 120fps yet, so i can't comment on how well either reduce blur. 120 should eliminate motion doubling correct? As is, after experiencing a small handful of VR2 games, i can't help but feel a little underwhelmed. I thought the vent would of by passed having to wait 20 minutes or so for the PSVR2 to boot up, to prevent lens fogging. But nope, you still have to wait just as you did for PSVR1. Can't stand the cable either, i'm pretty much over 'tethered' VR. And after 10 minutes or so of wearing the headset, my head and upper body starts to get hot. And I don't know about you guys, but the VR2 is less comfortable than the first. it's rough around the nose and i can't stand wearing the the thing for more than 15 minutes. It already NEEDS a 3rd party cushioned Light shield. :P

I've had the thing for 3 days now and I'm already sick of it. Yet i HAVE to play through Resident Evil: Village VR. it's a must and it's the only new VR title so far based on what little that I've played has impressed me. Enjoying Tentacular too, Moss Book 2 and the upgraded Vacation Simulator. However, Kayak Marage VR left me disappointed, and Call of the Mountain has been a complete mixed bag.

Negatives >

* Cable/tethered. Which is a big annoying VR barrier that makes the experience less convenient, cumbersome and sloppy
* Headset is uncomfortable around nose.
* Motion blur at even 'decent' brightness (Have to keep it at 1-2 on the slider bar, anymore and it gradually gets out of hand)
* Head and upper body get hot quickly during use
* Big chunky fat front visor
* Rings on VR controllers
* In order to get good motion you have to settle for low brightness.


Positives compared to PSVR1 >

Deeper Black levels
Resolution is MUCH better
Passthrough mode
Guardian Wand play area setting
Actual VR controllers
Inside out Motion tracking
etc

Anyhoo, any recommendations for 90 & 120fps PSVR2 games?
I’m still getting the blur even with brightness set to minimum. The only cure I have found is to play a native 90hz game. The only one I have is pavlov. I know song in the smoke is also native 90hz and even has a native 120 hz mode. It also is using eye tracked foveated rendering unlike a lot of the launch titles. If you like survival games I think you should pick that up since the devs worked really hard to take advantage of all the features and provide the best experience possible.

So you're saying that VR2 games running at 90fps eliminates the motion blur and motion doubling completely, or that it just reduces it?
I always assumed that PSVR2 games would at least run at 90, and that 120 would be scarce. Yet here we are still having to put up with reprojected 60fps and all of it's compromises.

Oh, and I've heard that, that Starwars PSVR2 demo also runs at 90fps. Just downloaded it recently, might give it a whirl because i go to sleep and see how it stacks up. Could of sworn i saw a demo for Pavlov as well, if so, I'll definitely check that one out too.

If the PSVR2 didn't have a brightness slider to reduce movement blur, and we were stuck with that horrendous motion blur and next to zero games ran at 90fps to help reduce it, i would be returning it no doubt.

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NeonPizza
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by NeonPizza » 28 Feb 2023, 14:33

Just tried out a couple of VR2 games running at 90fps. Wow, what a difference! Motion doubling is completely gone, and the motion as expected is more life like and smooth. Environmental blur seems to pretty much eliminated as well during in-game movement, be it smooth turning, character animations etc. However, looking around with the headset still has a tiny bit of light blurring with brightness slider set half way(at max, there's obviously more, at it's lowest it's very subtle)

Tried 120hz also, which is nice step up over 90, but I'm more than happy with 90fps being the target. 60fps being reprojected into 120 shouldn't even be a thing.

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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 01 Mar 2023, 00:01

Don't confuse stroboscopic effect (duplicate images) with motion blur. See www.blurbusters.com/stroboscopics
That's unfixable with low-persistence strobing at the moment.

But brightness definitely affects headturn motion blur of VR:
To properly benchmark VR motion blur, eyetrack text while headturning, in a manner similar to this:
twitter.com/SadlyItsBradley/status/1630426329223950337
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RonsonPL
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by RonsonPL » 01 Mar 2023, 19:11

Digital Foundry has a PSVR2 review and the only guy in that team who knows anything about motion in games, mentioned the problem while using a very familiar image ;)
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH2uZMsa-es

This guy is one of us, people who remember CRT era of gaming. Too bad he's way too polite and too forgiving. I wish he was more harsh when criticizing. He uses "I'd love to see" and I'd rather hear him saying "the lack of this is simply unacceptable" (when he talks about fps=Hz mode being absent in GT7 VR)

elexor
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by elexor » 01 Mar 2023, 19:35

I can't believe they are pushing reprojection so hard on this headset instead of just using a lower refreshrate for me it totally ruins presence which imo is what VR is all about.

It might be ok if sony had more advanced reprojection but it seems like they just use basic gen 1 rotation only reprojection/timewarp, like someone to verify this.

They're poisoning the well for the sake of existing AAA games running on the headset

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tygeezy
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by tygeezy » 07 Mar 2023, 23:24

I think the reason that 90 hz is the lowest refresh rate might have to do with their eye tracking. It might not work so well at say 80 hz which I wish was an option over the awful reprojection.

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