Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

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jorimt
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by jorimt » 24 Feb 2023, 19:41

RonsonPL wrote:
24 Feb 2023, 18:02
Careful. Index, not unlike Quest 2 or Pimax, is far from high quality, durable piece of hardware. Just take a look at YT and watch some videos about Indexes flaws. Search for "don't buy Index" "problems with index".
Do you own one? Because I can only speak to my experience, and I've had no issues with my particular unit over the 2+ years owning it. YMMV of course...
RonsonPL wrote:
24 Feb 2023, 18:02
- very common issues with cable (might be fixed in newer revisions, I'm not sure) and controllers. Rarely work after 2 years of frequent use and are very expensive to replace (read also below)
Haven't had these issues myself. Closest is a bit of the finish on the back of one of the controllers wore off a couple months ago. That's about it.
RonsonPL wrote:
24 Feb 2023, 18:02
- Index price is insane for 2023. It still costs 1000$+tax, while it's technologically very outdated now.
The full kit is pricey, yes (though I'd say something like the Quest Pro is much worse of a value, and it costs more). But as I mentioned earlier, the base stations and controllers will work with many other headsets.

As for being outdated, the display resolution, for sure. The FOV, audio (both headphones and mic), refresh rate, motion clarity/brightness ratio, and overall features are up there with anything, however (currently).
RonsonPL wrote:
24 Feb 2023, 18:02
- it has the worst Fresnel Lens downsides (so called "god rays")
Fresnel lenses aren't the best, but pancake lenses have their issues as well, unfortunately.

Also part of the reason the Index has as high of an FOV as it does is due to the dual-element frensel lenses, which increases those very god rays.
RonsonPL wrote:
24 Feb 2023, 18:02
- the tracking is really good, but very likely already abandoned.
Unlikely, I think.

As for inside-out tracking, the Quest 2 is "okay" (I gave mine to a relative because the standalone games were middling, and PC VR on it was pointless to me due to it basically looking like a streaming video feed).

The Reverb G2 inside-out tracking genuinely sucks, and it's AA controller batteries (two per controller) literally last under 4 hours at best, which is why I use my Index controllers and base stations with it instead, even though getting it to all work is clunky, a reason why I hope the Beyond ends up being as good as it sounds; basically a Reverb G2+ with OLED and native SteamVR tracking support.
RonsonPL wrote:
24 Feb 2023, 18:02
I'm sure if Valve ever returns to PC VR again (sadly, it's not even certain) it will have inside-out tracking.
Big IF, for certain. I'm not holding my breath for "Valve" anything.
RonsonPL wrote:
24 Feb 2023, 18:02
Replacing a malfunctioning Lighthouse sensor or Knuckles controller in 2025 might simply be impossible. I'd be worried about third party support as well. Maybe now there are some on the horizon. Pimax and maybe two more. But when there are no more trackers and controllers being sold, surely this will die out and Steam has "out of stock" on lighthouses and controllers alone for quite some time now.
According to the most recent insider rumors, Valve is going to have HTC start manufacturing the base stations.
RonsonPL wrote:
24 Feb 2023, 18:02
Anyway. I really do think there's no chance for anything other than inside-out tracking.
I think it's more likely VR will crash altogether than it become exclusively inside-out, but we'll see.
RonsonPL wrote:
24 Feb 2023, 18:02
So there's no change since 2014 when I tested Rift Development Kit 2. It had bad OLED smearing and the remedy was to basically abandon the real black, as there were issues. To counter, you'd need to bascically replace true black with a greyish tone.
Yes, that's the simple way of "solving" it; keeping it just above black at all times so the pixels never shut off while the display is active, but this is certainly not the best solution.
RonsonPL wrote:
24 Feb 2023, 18:02
I hope you'll like it but for me it's far off what I expected in 2014 to appear by 2020. I mean FOV. I want the really wide and tall FOV.
I don't personally prioritize FOV in VR. I have a very high FOV in real-life, so a reduced FOV in VR is almost calming (horse blinders), that, and I don't do a lot of eye tracking. I'm more of a fixed gaze player on both flat screens and in VR.

Also, a couple of the difficulties in achieving high FOV on VR headsets (among others) is keeping the pixel density high enough, as well as avoiding various distortion artifacts.
RonsonPL wrote:
24 Feb 2023, 18:02
There's a project focused on community-first approach. Opensource code, no concerns about privacy etc. I like that one.
https://somniumspace.medium.com/somnium ... 3e9dabd9b7
Yeah, I've heard of it. Another one to look out for.
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by Chamber » 24 Feb 2023, 22:53

RonsonPL wrote:
23 Feb 2023, 13:19
cgeorgiu wrote:
23 Feb 2023, 12:15
The psvr2 is a massive disappointment for me so far.
Core gamers wanted more AAA games. Instead we have lack of any teasers for AAA VR games for 2023 and 2024, and focusing on social features instead (foveated rendering is more for social than it is for performance, as its cost could improve the experience in other ways) and things like HDR, This just doesn't bode well for the future of PSVR2 or highend PC VR.
The foveated rendering actually seems to make a huge difference in PSVR 2's performance. According to a Pavlov dev, the PSVR 2 with foveated rendering performs 10% better than their 3090 TI setup. The PS5's GPU performance is about equivalent to an RTX 2070 for reference, which has less than half the performance of a 3090 TI. Source: https://twitter.com/Flat2VR/status/1622617596376883203. From what I've seen from reviewers, foveated rendering is imperceivable no matter how hard you try to break it and it doesn't seem to have any compromises other than adding to the cost of the VR headset. I've heard the Varjo Aero has foveated rendering and I hope it becomes standard on PCVR headsets. In the future when we hit life-like clarity on VR, rendering 8k or 16k+ resolutions for the entire display won't be practical. I do agree with you that Sony shouldn't have prioritized HDR over motion clarity. VR headsets probably going to need MicroLED or super fast MiniLED displays to pull off HDR at good brightness without compromising motion clarity.

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tygeezy
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by tygeezy » 25 Feb 2023, 03:50

The motion blur is killing me on the psvr 2. I was on the verge of returning it but my man Bradley is saying we can crank down the brightness level to increase black frame insertion and lower persistence! I‘ve already put the headset away for the night but I’m trying this tomorrow.

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https://twitter.com/sadlyitsbradley/sta ... 0t2pvBlb1w

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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 25 Feb 2023, 13:35

tygeezy wrote:
25 Feb 2023, 03:50
The motion blur is killing me on the psvr 2. I was on the verge of returning it but my man Bradley is saying we can crank down the brightness level to increase black frame insertion and lower persistence! I‘ve already put the headset away for the night but I’m trying this tomorrow.
Yes, reducing brightness often lowers persistence too. Try that if you want to reduce virtual reality motion blur in many headsets.
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by tygeezy » 25 Feb 2023, 19:09

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
25 Feb 2023, 13:35
tygeezy wrote:
25 Feb 2023, 03:50
The motion blur is killing me on the psvr 2. I was on the verge of returning it but my man Bradley is saying we can crank down the brightness level to increase black frame insertion and lower persistence! I‘ve already put the headset away for the night but I’m trying this tomorrow.
Yes, reducing brightness often lowers persistence too. Try that if you want to reduce virtual reality motion blur in many headsets.
I lowered the brightness all the way to minimum and it didn’t help at all. I fired up a game called pavlov that I know is 90 fps at 90hz and no motion blur! It looks like it’s an artifact of the reprojection…

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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by elexor » 25 Feb 2023, 22:08

Good chance alot of games on the psvr2 are going against vr best practices using deferred rendering with taa and only running at half the framerate relying on reprojection which is supposed to be a safety net not a replacement for running native framerates.

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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 26 Feb 2023, 01:21

Reprojection should not necessarily add motion blur, at least when using Oculus (erm, Meta) ASW 2.0 algorithm.

I wonder if the reprojection used by PSVR2 has more flaws.

I don't have a PS5 and PSVR2 to analyze this, but perhaps it is something I should at least do a visit to (e.g. a store) to analyze for quick comments.
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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by thatoneguy » 26 Feb 2023, 12:37

I think PSVR2 is using double-strobe

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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by tygeezy » 26 Feb 2023, 13:22

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 01:21
Reprojection should not necessarily add motion blur, at least when using Oculus (erm, Meta) ASW 2.0 algorithm.

I wonder if the reprojection used by PSVR2 has more flaws.

I don't have a PS5 and PSVR2 to analyze this, but perhaps it is something I should at least do a visit to (e.g. a store) to analyze for quick comments.
It would be great for you to experience it and get your input on it. So far this has been a very disappointing experience.

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Re: Very bad news about VR. They're chosing HDR over motion quality

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 26 Feb 2023, 15:11

thatoneguy wrote:
26 Feb 2023, 12:37
I think PSVR2 is using double-strobe
That's just a reprojection artifact.

Long-term, reprojection needs to also function on local object movements (e.g. hand controller tracking etc).

Low persistence sample-and-hold via flickerfree brute Hz combined with large reprojection ratios would be vastly superior to flicker-based low persistence. Then artifacts would simply be brief moments of extra motion blur on non-reprojected objects, instead of duplicate images. As long as all objects are reprojected, that fixes the motion blur.

A VR world could generate 100fps which is then reprojected to 1000-4000fps (practical during the 2030s according to our math)
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