Asus mod has called on our community to shout about backlight strobing

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
liquidshadowfox
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Asus mod has called on our community to shout about backlight strobing

Post by liquidshadowfox » 20 Apr 2023, 21:00

Boys, I made a post on asus's forum about 2 years ago about this great monitor and I decided today to log back into asus forums to see if anything has changed. Well I noticed there was an individual that linked to my post (really good in depth review that I did as an average joe with some suggestions for improvements) but I can no longer see it. I complained about not being able to see the post and an Asus moderator said the following
"Hello liquidshadowfox

The link in the OP's post is the link to your thread on the forum, it's still there.

I'd like to thank you for taking the time to do the testing you've done. You posted it about two years ago and I'm sure it got quite a few views but, it's going to take more than two people to get any real attention. There needs to be a lot more people making noise and/or agreeing with you. So with that, all I can say is, check every now and then at the ASUS Support Center for firmware updates."

I'd post the link but I don't want to break any forum rules here. Anyways, I think we should band together and shout together as a community, not just as a community that owns an Asus XG27AQM but one that are clear motion enthusiasts who want a VRR + backlight strobing monitor that is BLUR BUSTER APPROVED.

Reason why a good VRR + strobed monitor is a big deal
1. IPS monitors are getting brighter and brighter with horrible HDR implementations with no FALD, why not use this huge brightness headroom for backlight strobing?
2. No burn in issues like OLED
3. Backlight strobing with LCD can be seen as superior in certain respects vs OLEDs, yes OLEDs have consistent overdrive and minimal ghosting BUT not many OLEDs can ASYNCHRONOUSLY flicker their light vs the pixel changing how an LCD can. This is why zowie monitors with Dyac still look MUCH clearer in motion vs OLEDs despite having a slower pixel response time! because they can hide their grey to grey during the strobe's OFF phase.
4. 50 fps and above content would not look blurry anymore! Remember the good old days of CRT? This is magical to me even today with a quest 2 (currently one of the best LCDs with low persistence blur!)
6. I'd also implore asus to use an RGB subpixel layout, it works for all the regular document, web browsing and editing tasks we normally do when we aren't gaming.
7. Imagine the QHD 360 hz IPS panel from asus but with ELMB sync that doesn't lock the overdrive (maybe dynamic even), user upgradable firmware for the backlight strobing algorithm and no limits to what we can change! (imagine QFT trick that would reduce crosstalk massively in exchange for a max refresh of 240 hz BUT works from 50 hz - 240 hz or you can have 50 hz - 360 hz with some crosstalk).

Guys I have a dream, I know we are all strangers on here but I am passionate about backlight strobing tech and having perfect motion clarity and want to spread the word that at least an Asus mod might be willing to pass on our message to asus to design such a monitor. Would it be in partnership with blur busters? Maybe yes, maybe no but I want to at least try to see if we can get any traction on this.

RonsonPL
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Re: Asus mod has called on our community to shout about backlight strobing

Post by RonsonPL » 22 Apr 2023, 05:18

I won't complain if strobe mode only works in v-sync mode, not VRR, just let us have it at all (in usable form)

I wouldn't hold much hope in terms of the mod, though. Those can be far away from site admins and even those can be far away from people at Asus who actualy make the calls.

That said. I'm no less passionate about monitor blur elimination in games as you so fingers crossed.

BTW. Is it possible with V50+ firmware on Quest 2 to enforce perfect 60Hz display?
I also have strong feeling towards 16bit era of gaming, as I grew up on 8bit and 16bit (I love just 16bit as I was too poor to upgrade and had to use 8bit Atari for way too long - I developed the hate towards huge pixels as a result ;) ) so I'd love to play some retro stuff on Q2, but 50Hz strobe on an LCD is just waaaay too much flicker for me.
And it's either flicker or blur at 50fps @50Hz.

liquidshadowfox
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Re: Asus mod has called on our community to shout about backlight strobing

Post by liquidshadowfox » 22 Apr 2023, 21:53

I'm thinking of making an online petition to show there is at least interest in this because Vsync is good and all but I have many games that I play at different refresh rates so it would be nice to have the set it and forget it option. I mean at LEAST if we could use fixed strobe + vsync + fixed refresh on a per game basis that would be a big improvement imo.

bumbeen
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Re: Asus mod has called on our community to shout about backlight strobing

Post by bumbeen » 25 Apr 2023, 18:38

vsync for whatever reason greatly lowers my fps headroom in valorant even if I have the FPS limit set to below the refresh rate. If I have vsync off and frame rate limiter set to 238, it will sit rock solid at 238 no matter what's going on, but with vsync on it drops into the low 200s on the same scene

freesync does a passable job with tearing but my god is it so incredibly annoying when the monitor shuts ELMB off mid-game and then the OSD for some stupid reason won't let me turn it back on unless I fiddle with the OD settings or sometimes have to power the monitor off and back on. At least with VRR disabled ELMB seems to be less apt to shut itself off and even if it does I never get locked out of the menu in the OSD.

The firmware on this monitor is a piece of hot garbage i tell you what. I was on the verge of replacing it today until I looked into OLED enough to learn they aren't actually that great with VRR.

I don't know if I will ever buy another asus display because of this. are there literally zero 1440p displays that can do VRR in the 200hz range with backlight strobing 😭 I opened a ticket with asus and filled out their "email to the ceo" form bugging them about firmware update

I feel like i'm going to just end up buying a 240hz oled and building a new PC to go with it so i can keep valorant locked at 240 with vsync enabled and be done with VRR entirely

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Re: Asus mod has called on our community to shout about backlight strobing

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 25 Apr 2023, 22:41

bumbeen wrote: ↑
25 Apr 2023, 18:38
The firmware on this monitor is a piece of hot garbage i tell you what. I was on the verge of replacing it today until I looked into OLED enough to learn they aren't actually that great with VRR.
OLED does a great job with VRR if your framerates are steady. So if you can lock at ~230-235, then it's pretty good. The OLED VRR flicker is mainly only during massive framerate drops -- and even LCDs also have a flicker effect too. The worst VRR LCDs can flicker more than OLED VRR does. It's just that displays can generate some compromises with VRR, what you read is really overblown.
bumbeen wrote: ↑
25 Apr 2023, 18:38
I don't know if I will ever buy another asus display because of this. are there literally zero 1440p displays that can do VRR in the 200hz range with backlight strobing 😭 I opened a ticket with asus and filled out their "email to the ceo" form bugging them about firmware update
VRR strobing, in my opinion, isn't as good as non-strobed OLED VRR, because VRR strobing has much more erratic flickering than non-strobed VRR OLED, and the OLED has very fast pixel response. Strobing is really good if you can get really steady frame rates and use RTSS Scanline Sync as the low-lag VSYNC clone.
bumbeen wrote: ↑
25 Apr 2023, 18:38
I feel like i'm going to just end up buying a 240hz oled and building a new PC to go with it so i can keep valorant locked at 240 with vsync enabled and be done with VRR entirely
You can go either way, most of the time OLED VRR is (usually) superior to strobed LCD VRR due to the flicker and variable-crosstalk effect problem of strobed VRR. But Right Tool For Right Job.

Fixed-Hz LCD strobing has less motion blur than OLED does, but 240fps OLED has less motion blur than 360fps non-strobed IPS LCD.

Also, don't combine an in-game framerate cap with VSYNC ON! In-game framerate cap is an averaging-based system. At a 225fps cap, some frames may be 1/200sec and other frames may be 1/250sec, in an attempt to average 225fps. But when you add VSYNC, it will slow down those too-fast frames to below Hz. The VSYNC ON combined with an in-game cap can clamp those too-fast frames to no faster than one refreshtime (1/240sec on a 240Hz monitor), worse if the frames begin to buffer up. The net result is your cap will be way below your in-game framerate cap, when you attempt to combine VSYNC and an in-game cap. This is a side effect of the VSYNC ON hard-cap throttling those too-fast frames, creating a net framerate lower than your cap.

If you want SMOOTH (jitter-free operation) with LCD or OLED, you probably want:

(A) VRR with a cap
(B) VSYNC without an in-game cap. (RTSS cap is OK, though laggier)
(C) VSYNC OFF + RTSS Scanline Sync to create a tearingless VSYNC OFF (looks like VSYNC ON)

Now that being said, (C) is hard to do with Valorant unless you have an overpowered GPU. With OLED, smooth operation will favour VRR with a cap.

Most use VSYNC OFF, but that does have the tearing and jitter disadvantage.

Now that being said, strobed LCD VRR is fantastic for the right tool for the right job -- it's just very hard to optimize.
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liquidshadowfox
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Re: Asus mod has called on our community to shout about backlight strobing

Post by liquidshadowfox » 26 Apr 2023, 17:17

I have a few problems with OLEDs atm
1. Image persistence blur is bad the lower framerate you go which kinda negates OLED's biggest advantage vs a strobed LCD
2. Burn in is a concern
3 Horrible text fringing because windows cleartype can't handle the sub pixel layout
4. Even if you do a software based BFI on the OLED, it can only do 120 fps work of frames with 8 ms of persistence ( or 60 fps with 4 ms of persistence correct me if I'm wrong here)
5. Current OLEDs are not very bright or at least can't sustain high brightness for long without heating up and possibly causing premature burn in. (this one doesn't bother me TOO much cause I can play in a dark room)

If an OLED 240 hz is equivalent to a 360 hz LCD wouldn't it be better to just go for the more responsive 360 hz LCD?
1. No risk of burn in
2. slow response time (vs oled) is pretty much a none issue with the persistence blur
3. Feels more responsive with the additional frame rate headroom

Still wishing and waiting the VRR + Strobe tuning for eve spectrum (now dough) will actually happen if the 280 hz monitor ever reaches my hands :(

bumbeen
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Re: Asus mod has called on our community to shout about backlight strobing

Post by bumbeen » 02 May 2023, 08:05

Chief Blur Buster wrote: ↑
25 Apr 2023, 22:41
bumbeen wrote: ↑
25 Apr 2023, 18:38
The firmware on this monitor is a piece of hot garbage i tell you what. I was on the verge of replacing it today until I looked into OLED enough to learn they aren't actually that great with VRR.
OLED does a great job with VRR if your framerates are steady. So if you can lock at ~230-235, then it's pretty good. The OLED VRR flicker is mainly only during massive framerate drops -- and even LCDs also have a flicker effect too. The worst VRR LCDs can flicker more than OLED VRR does. It's just that displays can generate some compromises with VRR, what you read is really overblown.
bumbeen wrote: ↑
25 Apr 2023, 18:38
I don't know if I will ever buy another asus display because of this. are there literally zero 1440p displays that can do VRR in the 200hz range with backlight strobing 😭 I opened a ticket with asus and filled out their "email to the ceo" form bugging them about firmware update
VRR strobing, in my opinion, isn't as good as non-strobed OLED VRR, because VRR strobing has much more erratic flickering than non-strobed VRR OLED, and the OLED has very fast pixel response. Strobing is really good if you can get really steady frame rates and use RTSS Scanline Sync as the low-lag VSYNC clone.
bumbeen wrote: ↑
25 Apr 2023, 18:38
I feel like i'm going to just end up buying a 240hz oled and building a new PC to go with it so i can keep valorant locked at 240 with vsync enabled and be done with VRR entirely
You can go either way, most of the time OLED VRR is (usually) superior to strobed LCD VRR due to the flicker and variable-crosstalk effect problem of strobed VRR. But Right Tool For Right Job.

Fixed-Hz LCD strobing has less motion blur than OLED does, but 240fps OLED has less motion blur than 360fps non-strobed IPS LCD.

Also, don't combine an in-game framerate cap with VSYNC ON! In-game framerate cap is an averaging-based system. At a 225fps cap, some frames may be 1/200sec and other frames may be 1/250sec, in an attempt to average 225fps. But when you add VSYNC, it will slow down those too-fast frames to below Hz. The VSYNC ON combined with an in-game cap can clamp those too-fast frames to no faster than one refreshtime (1/240sec on a 240Hz monitor), worse if the frames begin to buffer up. The net result is your cap will be way below your in-game framerate cap, when you attempt to combine VSYNC and an in-game cap. This is a side effect of the VSYNC ON hard-cap throttling those too-fast frames, creating a net framerate lower than your cap.

If you want SMOOTH (jitter-free operation) with LCD or OLED, you probably want:

(A) VRR with a cap
(B) VSYNC without an in-game cap. (RTSS cap is OK, though laggier)
(C) VSYNC OFF + RTSS Scanline Sync to create a tearingless VSYNC OFF (looks like VSYNC ON)

Now that being said, (C) is hard to do with Valorant unless you have an overpowered GPU. With OLED, smooth operation will favour VRR with a cap.

Most use VSYNC OFF, but that does have the tearing and jitter disadvantage.

Now that being said, strobed LCD VRR is fantastic for the right tool for the right job -- it's just very hard to optimize.
Thank you for the details on this one. I have replaced my entire PC with a new build that is able to maintain rock solid 270fps with vsync ON. I chose nvidia GPU instead of AMD this time for possibly no reason at all and lost freesync ability, but since freesync on this xg27aqm doesn't work right anyway I don't consider it a big loss. I do see your point about the LCD being as good as the OLED though, since I start changing the OD setting in the service menu every day the monitor is a lot easier to use than before. I didn't know it was that big of a difference, but it really does seem like a completely different monitor

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Re: Asus mod has called on our community to shout about backlight strobing

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 03 May 2023, 10:45

liquidshadowfox wrote: ↑
26 Apr 2023, 17:17
If an OLED 240 hz is equivalent to a 360 hz LCD wouldn't it be better to just go for the more responsive 360 hz LCD?
1. No risk of burn in
2. slow response time (vs oled) is pretty much a none issue with the persistence blur
3. Feels more responsive with the additional frame rate headroom
Depends on your priorities.

If you are in esports and you really need the gold standard, it's hard to beat the 360Hz E-TN panels.

If your priority is more casual gaming (Witcher, Cyberpunk, Star Wars, etc) and you can maintain triple digit frame rates, enjoying 100-240fps versus enjoying 100fps-360fps, you may get better experience on the OLED.

Also, I'm working on some developments to eliminate color fringing on OLEDs: https://github.com/microsoft/PowerToys/issues/25595
In the interim, MacType for Windows which helps greatly.
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liquidshadowfox
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Re: Asus mod has called on our community to shout about backlight strobing

Post by liquidshadowfox » 06 May 2023, 09:22

What about if you play the following games?
Elden ring : locked at 60 fps
League of legends: highest available
Valorant: highest available
Overwatch: highest available
Fortnite: between 120 - 240
Lost Ark: 240 but with many dips (the dips are due to limitations of the engine, wasn't made to run at anything more than 60 fps consistently)
Hunt Showdown: 144 fps (some minor dips, can be mitigated playing at 120 fps)
Star citizen: unknown (fps fluctuates a LOT in this game between 60 fps - 144 depending on scene)
Give me your recommendation Mark, I personally hate seeing blur in most of my games and personally I think backlight strobing is the only way to remove it from 60 fps content.

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Re: Asus mod has called on our community to shout about backlight strobing

Post by bumbeen » 08 May 2023, 06:22

I will note, after building my new PC, some of my dissatisfaction with the xg27aqm was apparently due to my GPU. Freesync would deactivate randomly on the monitor randomly with my old rig(i7-9700k + 5700xt), but on my new rig (7800x3d + rtx 4070) this never seems to happen. I only get intermittent ELMB deactivation but overall it's much better with the nvidia card. Very surprised since I thought freesync was an AMD invention but somehow the nvidia GPU implements it more reliably, at least for the combination of GPUs and whatever monitor firmware mine has.

So at this point I'm fairly happy with it with the only major con having to go into the service menu every day to change the OD setting + sometimes reactivating ELMB. I don't suppose there's any way to control the OSD settings from within windows?

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