Panasonic ST60 & ST50 plasma motion clarity & Persistence?

[NeonPizza]

Would anybody happen to know both the motion clarity & motion persistence of the ST60(2013) & ST50(2012) Panasonic plasma's?
I'm done watching movies&TV on QD-OLED(+BFI) simply because of the there's more flicker on whites(Due to BFI), more film judder(which seems like 2-3x the amount as plasma), and it's 600p motion clarity and 8ms persistence, while solid, aren't great and could be better. Ideally, 1ms-4ms at 1080p motion clarity would be fantastic.

I recently read that both the ST50 & ST60 resolve 1080 lines of motion resolution, but saying 'lines' is just straight up outdated and i'm not entirely sure if that even translates to 1080p motion clarity based on their form of testing. Could of sworn somebody said the ST60 actually had 800-900 back in my AVS plasma forum days, but i'm not entirely sure.

I DO know that the Panasonic S60 has 700p motion clarity, and it's persistence is actually higher than 8ms. I mean it has to be higher than 8 simply because my C1's BFI IS 8ms and it had less motion blur than my plasma based on a handful of side by side tests i did running first person based titles at 60fps and so on.

[jorimt]

Would anybody happen to know both the motion clarity & motion persistence of the ST60(2013) & ST50(2012) Panasonic plasma's?

I had the ST60 (it died on me a few years ago). I don't know the MPRT off-hand, but what I can say is it has a 90Hz, 60Hz, and 48Hz mode for 24 FPS content. 60Hz is the smoothest/least flickery looking, 90Hz is the clearest, and 48Hz is too flickery to be usable in my opinion. The panel barely reaches 100 nits in mixed content at max brightness/contrast, and quite a bit less full field (I think in the 80 nits range, if I remember correctly, but don't quote me).

The downside of plasma, at least the ST60, is it has pretty noticeable phospor trails, especially in 90Hz mode for 24 FPS content, and mine in particular had voltage issues that caused discoloration (red blobs), so I was personally happy to be rid of it (for multiple reasons) when I upgraded to a LG C7 OLED at the time, but to each their own.

[NeonPizza]

Would anybody happen to know both the motion clarity & motion persistence of the ST60(2013) & ST50(2012) Panasonic plasma's?

I had the ST60 (it died on me a few years ago). I don't know the MPRT off-hand, but what I can say is it has a 90Hz, 60Hz, and 48Hz mode for 24 FPS content. 60Hz is the smoothest/least flickery looking, 90Hz is the clearest, and 48Hz is too flickery to be usable in my opinion. The panel barely reaches 100 nits in mixed content at max brightness/contrast, and quite a bit less full field (I think in the 80 nits range, if I remember correctly, but don't quote me).

The downside of plasma, at least the ST60, is it has pretty noticeable phospor trails, especially in 90Hz mode for 24 FPS content, and mine in particular had voltage issues that caused discoloration (red blobs), so I was personally happy to be rid of it (for multiple reasons) when I upgraded to a LG C7 OLED at the time, but to each their own.

I honestly don't think i could plunk both a 65" ST50 or ST60 plasma and a 65" QD-OLED in my living room anyways if I'm being honest.
Just did another semi-side by side comparison(from room to room) with my S60 Vs the LG C1 + MotionPro High BFI with a couple of Netflix movies, and I've got to admit, those true OLED blacks, combined with it's higher brightness and whiter whites make the picture look more alive, have superior depth and pop. The S60 looked a little too dim, and somewhat flat by comparison. Unfortunately, WRGB OLED colour is just awful, unless you use the native colour gamut instead of auto. I had to go native + 56 to get colour similar to my plasma, while diling back the low & high green white color balance settings, just to seek that nasty green out of the picture. Meanwhile, QD-OLED remedies WRGB's weak colour volume, has an even higher colour gamut and native gradient too. It's the true plasma killer, but still suffers with same motion related issues and flicker as wrgb oled.

I just wish there was more of a demand for better BFI implimentation. Most people don't seem to care so these TV manufactures just whip out a completely half baked BFI, just because. I mean, why settle for only 600p @8ms persistence, when they could opt for maybe 800-900p with a 4ms persistence. QD-OLED has more gobs of brightness to spare than regular OLED, so it should be possible while maintaining reasonable SDR brightness higher than 100 nits.

As for phosphor trails, i'd imagine that being far more visable when gaming for first person or 3rd person based titles, but not so much for movies. But again, you had the ST60 so you'd obviously know first hand. ST60 has too much latency to game on to, being in the 70ms range. eek! I've also heard that plasma's black levels raise and they lose brightness as they age over time and who knows how much longer either an ST50 or ST60 may last if i manage to get my hands on one.

I think...I'm going to just settle for a 65" S95C QD-OLED, use it's BFI for streaming movies&tv, and find a way to mitigate the BFI flicker a little. I'll just have to settle for it's 600p motion clarity and 8ms persistence, and more aggressive film judder until something better eventually comes along.

[jorimt]

Unfortunately, WRGB OLED colour is just awful, unless you use the native colour gamut instead of auto. I had to go native + 56 to get colour similar to my plasma, while diling back the low & high green white color balance settings, just to seek that nasty green out of the picture. Meanwhile, QD-OLED remedies WRGB's weak colour volume, has an even higher colour gamut and native gradient too. It's the true plasma killer, but still suffers with same motion related issues and flicker as wrgb oled.

WOLED has no issue reaching full SDR color coverage, it's HDR where it struggles against a QD-OLED due to the white subpixel.

Whatever differences you're seeing between the panel types is down to out-of-box color differences that can mostly be worked out by calibration. Also, different panel types give a different perception of color temperature, even if they're set the same between each other. I forget the name, but there is one for that phenomena.

Regardless, older WOLEDs did indeed tend to have a greenish cast at the lower end of the grayscale out-of-box. My 77" C2 doesn't.

I just wish there was more of a demand for better BFI implimentation. Most people don't seem to care so these TV manufactures just whip out a completely half baked BFI, just because. I mean, why settle for only 600p @8ms persistence, when they could opt for maybe 800-900p with a 4ms persistence. QD-OLED has more gobs of brightness to spare than regular OLED, so it should be possible while maintaining reasonable SDR brightness higher than 100 nits.

Dunno, take it up with the manufacturers. I assume if there were high enough demand in the media market, there would be more OLED TVs with better strobing implementation. The best MPRT on an OLED was the CX at "High" with a 3-4ms persistence, but it's limited to 60Hz and very dark and flickery.

Future OLED monitors may be more promising where strobing is concerned, seeing as there's a market for it in gaming (like the recent release of ULMB 2, albeit on LCD).

As for phosphor trails, i'd imagine that being far more visable when gaming for first person or 3rd person based titles, but not so much for movies. But again, you had the ST60 so you'd obviously know first hand.

It was very visible in gaming. Not so much in 60Hz mode with 24 FPS content, but again, in 90Hz mode, it was about as bad as it was in gaming on the faster and/or longer pans.

ST60 has too much latency to game on to, being in the 70ms range. eek! I've also heard that plasma's black levels raise and they lose brightness as they age over time and who knows how much longer either an ST50 or ST60 may last if i manage to get my hands on one.

Yes, pretty high latency, but I played Destiny 1 for a couple hundred hours on it regardless; burned in the UI too (plasma isn't nearly as IR resistant as modern OLED). And yes, voltage drift and aging can cause gradual, but noticeable uniformity changes where color tinting and black levels are concerned (that, or I had a particularly bad unit).

[Clear Motion Seeker]

The concept of "motion resolution" has always puzzled me, i'm not sure what it truely means actually.

From what i've seen so far, no plasma is comparable to CRT in terms of motion clarity, even the best models ever produced. Just the closest technology behind it along with DLP.

But it's soooo much better than sample-and-hold displays like OLED and LCD. Hence why the concept of "upgrading" from plasma to oled is very relative.
Most LCD users can't understand that, so for them oled is a huge upgrade at every level, and i'm sure that most people have completely forgotten the natural clear motion of CRT.

I don't like the route TV manufacturers have taken, technology shouldn't be so frustrating.

[NeonPizza]

The concept of "motion resolution" has always puzzled me, i'm not sure what it truely means actually.

From what i've seen so far, no plasma is comparable to CRT in terms of motion clarity, even the best models ever produced. Just the closest technology behind it along with DLP.

But it's soooo much better than sample-and-hold displays like OLED and LCD. Hence why the concept of "upgrading" from plasma to oled is very relative.
Most LCD users can't understand that, so for them oled is a huge upgrade at every level, and i'm sure that most people have completely forgotten the natural clear motion of CRT.

I don't like the route TV manufacturers have taken, technology shouldn't be so frustrating.

For people who value motion >


*Panasonic ST60 Plasma - Streaming, Blu-ray's and maybe DVD's(depending on screen size)

*QD-OLED - Modern gaming, at 120fps preferably, or using Black frame insertion if you can't handle the base/vanilla high persistence and low Mclarity.

*CRT - Retro SD gaming, DVD's & VHS


Plasma's can't seem to offer anything below a 4ms(At their best) motion persistence, but that's still excellent compared to what OLED is hawking at 16. Question is, when will modern or future TV's be able to hit 4ms, or better yet 1ms, @1080p+ motion clarity and offer less film judder(More in line with plasma) than the Choppy excess garbage we're getting currently with OLED. Heck, I'll probably be too old to even care by the time that happens, IF it even happens. Won't hold my breath.

But really, if those 3 issues were tackled and greatly improved upon, I'd have no problem never using the world "plasma" in a sentence ever again. I mean really, QD-OLED has already pretty much perfected color, SDR & HDR brightness, offers true blacks etc etc, the only area in needs to improve on is MOTION. I can't tolerate watching movies on my LG C1 OLED anymore, i always fall back to my S60 plasma. Motion is much cleaner, smoother and natural. the OLED movie expereince may look wonderful when the screen is static, but as soon as things start moving it's just an artificial, juddery mushy motion fest. But with the S60 i'm getting 700p motion resolution, a lower motion persistence and what seems to be 2x less film judder.

[Clear Motion Seeker]

For people who value motion >

Which should concern everyone, i mean...a TV is supposed to display moving images permanently, unless for those who desire a giant digital photo frame.

*Panasonic ST60 Plasma - Streaming, Blu-ray's and maybe DVD's(depending on screen size)

*QD-OLED - Modern gaming, at 120fps preferably, or using Black frame insertion if you can't handle the base/vanilla high persistence and low Mclarity.

*CRT - Retro SD gaming, DVD's & VHS

ST60 is a good set, it's one of the most luminous plasma ever produced. The problem is its high input lag, which doesn't make it suitable even for non-competitive gaming.
I'm looking for a VT60 for this reason alone, or a Pioneer KRP-500A.

DVD is excellent on plasma.
I favor more emulation for retrogaming, when conditions are at least as good as offered by the original hardware. But for older consoles, CRT is almost mandatory.

OLED would be excellent if it weren't for motion. But i can't imagine paying thousands bucks for a blurry mess.

Plasma's can't seem to offer anything below a 4ms(At their best) motion persistence, but that's still excellent compared to what OLED is hawking at 16. Question is, when will modern or future TV's be able to hit 4ms, or better yet 1ms, @1080p+ motion clarity and offer less film judder(More in line with plasma) than the Choppy excess garbage we're getting currently with OLED. Heck, I'll probably be too old to even care by the time that happens, IF it even happens. Won't hold my breath.

I can only judge through my eyes, and panning isn't as crisp as CRT, but it's still sharp. Play any 2D or scrolling game, it's very clear on a plasma.

I don't know if it's possible to get a crisp motion while sparing a good brightness level on oled, but manufacturers should work on it.

But really, if those 3 issues were tackled and greatly improved upon, I'd have no problem never using the world "plasma" in a sentence ever again. I mean really, QD-OLED has already pretty much perfected color, SDR & HDR brightness, offers true blacks etc etc, the only area in needs to improve on is MOTION. I can't tolerate watching movies on my LG C1 OLED anymore, i always fall back to my S60 plasma. Motion is much cleaner, smoother and natural. the OLED movie expereince may look wonderful when the screen is static, but as soon as things start moving it's just an artificial, juddery mushy motion fest. But with the S60 i'm getting 700p motion resolution, a lower motion persistence and what seems to be 2x less film judder.

That's the difference between specs and actual viewing. In theory, oled completely destroys plasma. In reality, plasma is still better overall : more natural colors, more natural motion, far less black crushing effect...

[tisurame]

For people who value motion >


*Panasonic ST60 Plasma - Streaming, Blu-ray's and maybe DVD's(depending on screen size)

*QD-OLED - Modern gaming, at 120fps preferably, or using Black frame insertion if you can't handle the base/vanilla high persistence and low Mclarity.

*CRT - Retro SD gaming, DVD's & VHS

That's odd.

Considering Plasma is better in motion, why movies would take precedence over games considering motion is something MUCH more present on games?

Besides, only games can be played at 60fps to take advantage of the 60Hz motion.

I'm still using a Plasma monitor as my main TV (Panasonic VT60) and I never thought that movies would have a difference regarding motion resolution, since they are played at 24fps.

Games running at 30fps looks horrible on Plasma displays.

60fps at 60Hz (something only achievable in games) is the biggest reason to use a Plasma. So, I can't understand why it would be even better for movies.

[Clear Motion Seeker]

For people who value motion >


*Panasonic ST60 Plasma - Streaming, Blu-ray's and maybe DVD's(depending on screen size)

*QD-OLED - Modern gaming, at 120fps preferably, or using Black frame insertion if you can't handle the base/vanilla high persistence and low Mclarity.

*CRT - Retro SD gaming, DVD's & VHS

Games running at 30fps looks horrible on Plasma displays.

30 fps games (console ones to be clear) usually add a motion blur effect, so it's not that bothersome compared to a sample-and-hold display.

The good thing with OLED screens is that you can choose between either the basic sample-and-hold motion and the BFI mode, without having to deal ghosting and crosstalk.

Sure it gets darker, but plasma displays were quite dim anyway.

However plasmas are still more balanced in terms of motion clarity, color accuracy, lighter flickering effect when we're talking about getting all of them at once.

[Supermodel_Evelynn]

I will never get over how we got rid of good CRT displays for all these garbage LCD as replacement and we all accepted it like there was nothing wrong.

Imagine if we supported the CRT industry today we would have 240HZ CRT just imagine the kind of CRT we would be using today