Do any OLED TVs support interpolation-free BFI?

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
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SeeNoWeevil
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Do any OLED TVs support interpolation-free BFI?

Post by SeeNoWeevil » 07 May 2016, 07:38

Or any on the horizon? I can't seem to find much info about LG's OLED panels in this regard.

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lexlazootin
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Re: Do any OLED TVs support interpolation-free BFI?

Post by lexlazootin » 07 May 2016, 07:49

Frame interpolation? like creating a higher framerate from the source material? Because that can typically be turned off in pretty much every TV.

SeeNoWeevil
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Re: Do any OLED TVs support interpolation-free BFI?

Post by SeeNoWeevil » 07 May 2016, 08:00

No, black frame insertion that *doesn't* also use interpolation i.e suitable for gaming.

RLBURNSIDE
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Re: Do any OLED TVs support interpolation-free BFI?

Post by RLBURNSIDE » 07 May 2016, 09:02

Haven't heard of any OLED TVs supporting greater than 60hz, even high end ones running at 1080p, so no BFI (yet).

However OLEDs don't need to insert complete black frames so they don't need to run at 120hz internally. I think a better approach is a bellcurve anyway.

Your best bet is wait for 2017 when DisplayPort 1.3 becomes more commonplace or perhaps USB-C with DP 1.4 then you can get both 120hz at UHD but also with HDR too.

I believe that VR headsets like the Rift that operate at 90hz also do strobing so that pixels are set to black for a % of the frame duration, which doesn't necessarily need to be 50% duty cycle (requiring 180hz internal operation). Interesting topic I'll try looking into it more.

SeeNoWeevil
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Re: Do any OLED TVs support interpolation-free BFI?

Post by SeeNoWeevil » 07 May 2016, 10:11

RLBURNSIDE wrote:Haven't heard of any OLED TVs supporting greater than 60hz, even high end ones running at 1080p, so no BFI (yet).

However OLEDs don't need to insert complete black frames so they don't need to run at 120hz internally. I think a better approach is a bellcurve anyway.

Your best bet is wait for 2017 when DisplayPort 1.3 becomes more commonplace or perhaps USB-C with DP 1.4 then you can get both 120hz at UHD but also with HDR too.

I believe that VR headsets like the Rift that operate at 90hz also do strobing so that pixels are set to black for a % of the frame duration, which doesn't necessarily need to be 50% duty cycle (requiring 180hz internal operation). Interesting topic I'll try looking into it more.
I should probably rephrase my question as, when will OLED likely match the motion clarity of strobed LCD @60Hz/60fps while being low enough latency for gaming. I realise OLED has a faster pixel response, but still suffers eye-tracking S&H blur.

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lexlazootin
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Re: Do any OLED TVs support interpolation-free BFI?

Post by lexlazootin » 07 May 2016, 11:51

Now? Strobe and Rolling shutter OLED monitors already exist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTfvwOGu4EI

All it requires is some one too do it. TV and monitor manufactures are acting very slow ATM so who knows.

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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: Do any OLED TVs support interpolation-free BFI?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 23 May 2016, 22:45

Chief Blur Buster speaks.
RLBURNSIDE wrote:However OLEDs don't need to insert complete black frames so they don't need to run at 120hz internally. I think a better approach is a bellcurve anyway.
Regardless, persistence is directly proportional to motion blur. Even 0.5ms persistence (over 90% dark) can still produce human-visible display-enforced motion blur, especially fast smooth motion of sharp details on higher resolution displaus (2560x1440 and up).
RLBURNSIDE wrote:I believe that VR headsets like the Rift that operate at 90hz also do strobing so that pixels are set to black for a % of the frame duration, which doesn't necessarily need to be 50% duty cycle (requiring 180hz internal operation). Interesting topic I'll try looking into it more.
Yes, Oculus does stroving via OLED rolling scan.

Actually:
Black duty cycle is independent of refresh rate. However, percentage of black duty cycle is directly proportional to blur reduction (at the same (any) refresh rate). i.e. 75% of the time black = 75% blur reduction. Or from the visible frame perspective: Twice as long frame visibility translates to twice the motion blur.

Does not matter if full strobe or rolling scan, as it is per-pixel duty cycle.

Note: That said, non-global illumination can cause artifacts (e.g. skewing during scan of any CRT, OLED (including strobed and nonstrobed rolling scans) or nonstrobed LCD -- when viewing http://www.testufo.com/blurtrail will skew in nonlightboost at 32pps -- but stops skewing in lightboost or global strobe. Also, if viewing animation on iPad, rotate display until you see line skew)

Bell curve strobe rather than squarewave strobe can be useful and may look better for some applications other than VR, or slower motion/unsynchronized(VSYNC OFF) motion. As a slight persistence softening can reduce the harshness of microstutters from non-perfect refreshrate-framerate synchronization. But other ultrafast refresh-rate-synchronized motion, minimum motion blur dictates point strobing (as short as possible persistence, which is electronically easier with squarewave...just turn off pixel automatically mid-refresh....independent of refresh rate exact interval....aka Rolling Scan).

There is no such thing as "180Hz internal operation" as Oculus is already 80-90% black duty cycle (2ms persistence, despite 1/90sec = ~11ms refresh cycles) -- it is just a pixel-turnoff time delay, in a rolling scan algorithm. You adjust persistence simply by chasing the off-scan closer to the on-scan. See high speed videos. Screen gets darker the more you shorten a rolling scan OLED persistence, and you may get into color nonlinearities as active matrix transistors turning on/off OLED pixels aren't perfectly squarewave at the sub-millisecond level.

Good VR makes perfect framerate-refreshrare vsyncing mandatory, unfortunately for the Holodeck immersion. No ifs, buts, no protest, it is just the way the cookie crumbles for VR. In this case, striving for CRT-style curve strobing (instead of square wave strobing) is rather useless UNLESS you need it to hide imperfections (e.g. Flaws in the display) or reduce eyestrain at lower strobe rates.

1ms of persistence translates to 1 pixel of motion blur for every 1000 pixels/second motion. (We call this the "BlurBusters Law") For motion on a 4K display going one screenwidth per second, at 1ms strobe flashes, all 1-pixel fine details gets motionblurred to 4 pixels from the act of eyetracking against the visible part of the refresh cycle.

This can also be observed in action by the motion-induced optical illusion that only appears during eye tracking: http://www.testufo.com/eyetracking

If you have an adjustable-persistence monitor:
You can even see the relationship between persistence and motion blur, then use your persistence adjustment (strobe duty cycle adjustment, e.g. ULMB strobe adjustment, BENQ Blur Reduction strobe length, etc) while watching http://www.testufo.com/blurtrail ... The line blurring goes exactly twice the blurring (no matter the refresh rate) for double the persistence, and follows BlurBusters Law (1ms strobe length = 1 pixel added motion blur during 1000 pixel/sec motion, but becomes 2 pixels of blurring at 2ms persistence)

Hz and persistence can be unlinked/unrelated thanks to strobe duty cycle adjustment. But if you wanted to completely eliminate black periods, a 2ms persistence display with no strobing, would need to run 500fps@500Hz flickerfree to match Lightboost 2ms, or Oculus flicker rolling scan 2ms. This is because 1 second divided by 2ms equals 500 visible distinct frames needed to fill all 2ms slots of 1 second to avoid any blackness, while keeping motion of each frame perfectly in sync with eye movements. Even a 2000fps@2000Hz display (needed for 0.5ms full persistence woth zero black cycle) would still have human-visible motion blur in extreme conditions (e.g. Fast head turning with 4K or 8K VR while trying to read fine text on a wall). Oculus knows this. Michael Abrash confirms the relationship between persistence and motion blur.

TL;DR: We are stuck with strobing, even for OLEDs, for a very long time.
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