To LG 24GM77 Owners: DAS + Motion 240

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
Erecshyrinol
Posts: 65
Joined: 05 Aug 2016, 12:25

To LG 24GM77 Owners: DAS + Motion 240

Post by Erecshyrinol » 05 Aug 2016, 13:18

Despite what the manual claims, turning on DAS and Motion 240 at the same time may actually be possible.

Under normal conditions, if you have DAS on, Motion 240 should be grayed out and inaccessible in the OSD menu. In order to turn them both on, follow this procedure:

- Turn DAS off
- Turn Motion 240 on.
- Press the physical "DAS MODE" button located on the bottom of your screen and turn DAS on.

Now if you check the OSD menu, you should see that both options appear to be on:

http://imgur.com/a/TvmAs

Note that Motion 240 does not work under 144hz, so lower your refresh rate to 120hz if necessary.

The thing is though, I've only purchased this monitor today and previously, I've been using a 60hz VA. This monitor is significantly more responsive by default, especially under 120hz. It's all quite fresh to me so honestly, I can't really tell the difference between DAS on and off.

You see, it's my suspicion that despite this "hack" and despite what the OSD menu seems to suggest, DAS is actually automatically turned off. I can confirm that after the "hack", Motion 240 works. It's readily apparent, but I also did a camera test to make absolutely sure that the monitor is flickering - sure enough, it is. So if one of these settings is automatically overridden, it's definitely DAS.

This is where I need your assistance. If one of you has this monitor as well as the means to check for a difference in input lag, I'd very much appreciate if you tried this "hack" and reported your findings.

Falkentyne
Posts: 2557
Joined: 26 Mar 2014, 07:23

Re: To LG 24GM77 Owners: DAS + Motion 240

Post by Falkentyne » 05 Aug 2016, 17:25

Hey there!
This is very similar to the AMA "hack" for improving AMA when blur reduction is disabled, on the Benq Z series monitors (not talking about the hidden AMA low feature written just below in this message, but applying AMA low where it's not supposed to be applied at, for MASSIVE benefits).

The firmware doesn't allow it and only allows 3 settings (off, high, premium). A fourth setting is available for blur reduction (aka AMA high reduced) by setting it to high after enabling MBR, a stealth "feature" added to V003+ firmware, and then you can abuse a bug which applies this to MBR off.

The pictures I posted about here:

http://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467

Its amazing what you can do if vendors actually UNLOCK all setting ranges on their monitors instead of allowing us to only use 2-4 fixed values :( Quality issues aside, a person can always press "restore defaults"...

Q83Ia7ta
Posts: 737
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 09:29

Re: To LG 24GM77 Owners: DAS + Motion 240

Post by Q83Ia7ta » 05 Aug 2016, 17:50

I have bad news for you:
LG's motion blur reduction comes with an input lag that is about 5 ms higher than with, for example, ASUS' Lightboost (at 120 Hz), for no technical reason. Moreover, Motion240 works only for 100 Hz and 120 Hz but not for 60 Hz or 144 Hz.

By default, i.e. when using the factory preset, DAS is enabled (DAS=On) which causes the input lag to be as short as with other monitors. However, DAS is not accessible (and disabled) when motion blur reduction is active (Motion240=On), in which case input lag is increased by virtually one refresh frame duration (effectively, it is a bit lower, see Motion 240 section).

that quotation above from here: http://display-corner.epfl.ch/index.php/LG_24GM77

But it can be neutral news for you if don't play at competitive level and don't feel any input lag.

Erecshyrinol
Posts: 65
Joined: 05 Aug 2016, 12:25

Re: To LG 24GM77 Owners: DAS + Motion 240

Post by Erecshyrinol » 05 Aug 2016, 18:19

Falkentyne wrote:Hey there!
This is very similar to the AMA "hack" for improving AMA when blur reduction is disabled, on the Benq Z series monitors (not talking about the hidden AMA low feature written just below in this message, but applying AMA low where it's not supposed to be applied at, for MASSIVE benefits).

The firmware doesn't allow it and only allows 3 settings (off, high, premium). A fourth setting is available for blur reduction (aka AMA high reduced) by setting it to high after enabling MBR, a stealth "feature" added to V003+ firmware, and then you can abuse a bug which applies this to MBR off.

The pictures I posted about here:

http://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2467

Its amazing what you can do if vendors actually UNLOCK all setting ranges on their monitors instead of allowing us to only use 2-4 fixed values :( Quality issues aside, a person can always press "restore defaults"...
Hello!

I am aware of the BenQ hack, I've been lurking here for a while. I suppose that if this DAS hack actually does anything, it would be a similar situation in that the users are doing the manufacturer's job for them. In fact, it would be a degree more hilarious because the manual for the 24GM77 explicitly states that DAS does not work with Motion 240.

Speaking of BenQ, I considered the 2411Z originally. The lack of DisplayPort really threw a wrench in that. Locally, the 2430T is noticably more expensive than the 24GM77 and I figured all the praise for the 24GM77's colors count for something. True enough, it looks very good for a TN panel, but it pales in comparison to my VA. Now I somewhat regret taking color reproduction into consideration because you know, if it's gonna look bad, a bit less or a bit more bad doesn't really matter. It's not like I'm going to be doing anything color sensitive on this.

What do you think, is the 2430T a good choice? Is it capable of everything the 2411z is? How usable is strobing under 144hz? Nothing is stopping me from returning the LG and investing a little bit more. I didn't even peel off the protective plastic yet.
Q83Ia7ta wrote:I have bad news for you:
LG's motion blur reduction comes with an input lag that is about 5 ms higher than with, for example, ASUS' Lightboost (at 120 Hz), for no technical reason. Moreover, Motion240 works only for 100 Hz and 120 Hz but not for 60 Hz or 144 Hz.

By default, i.e. when using the factory preset, DAS is enabled (DAS=On) which causes the input lag to be as short as with other monitors. However, DAS is not accessible (and disabled) when motion blur reduction is active (Motion240=On), in which case input lag is increased by virtually one refresh frame duration (effectively, it is a bit lower, see Motion 240 section).

that quotation above from here: http://display-corner.epfl.ch/index.php/LG_24GM77

But it can be neutral news for you if don't play at competitive level and don't feel any input lag.
I've read this article before and I wasn't able to conclude whether the extra 5~6ms of lag can be attributed to the lack of DAS under Motion 240 or if it's in addition to the lack of DAS.

I don't play at a competitive level, but I guess I play with a competitive mindset. Perhaps I don't feel that extra bit of input lag today because the 60hz VA panel I'm used to is fairly slow, but in a week or so, things could be different. In fact I don't think it matters much whether you actively notice input lag because it can still affect your performance regardless. I remember when I ditched my CRT for being an eyesore and bought the mentioned VA. I decided I wasn't gonna whine and told myself the lower refresh rate and input lag is no big deal, but it did affect my performance quite significantly. So in essence, I'm open to the idea that lowering input lag could improve my play, even if I don't consciously notice a difference. It could mean the difference between getting that flickshot or not.

But my needs aside, above all, I'm really curious whether the hack works or doesn't purely because it would be really funny/interesting if it did work.

Erecshyrinol
Posts: 65
Joined: 05 Aug 2016, 12:25

Re: To LG 24GM77 Owners: DAS + Motion 240

Post by Erecshyrinol » 07 Aug 2016, 10:41

I've dug up my CRT so I can test this out myself.

Is there a free alternative to SMTT 2.0 that I could use? I just need any timer software that will be reliable at 120hz. I can't really find anything.

Q83Ia7ta
Posts: 737
Joined: 18 Dec 2013, 09:29

Re: To LG 24GM77 Owners: DAS + Motion 240

Post by Q83Ia7ta » 07 Aug 2016, 22:37

Erecshyrinol wrote:I've dug up my CRT so I can test this out myself.

Is there a free alternative to SMTT 2.0 that I could use? I just need any timer software that will be reliable at 120hz. I can't really find anything.
LED to mouse and high speed camera like http://www.blurbusters.com/gsync/preview2/
Tips: capture whole screen and user high fps like 1000 at ioquake3 for example.

Erecshyrinol
Posts: 65
Joined: 05 Aug 2016, 12:25

Re: To LG 24GM77 Owners: DAS + Motion 240

Post by Erecshyrinol » 09 Aug 2016, 07:19

Q83Ia7ta wrote:
Erecshyrinol wrote:I've dug up my CRT so I can test this out myself.

Is there a free alternative to SMTT 2.0 that I could use? I just need any timer software that will be reliable at 120hz. I can't really find anything.
LED to mouse and high speed camera like http://www.blurbusters.com/gsync/preview2/
Tips: capture whole screen and user high fps like 1000 at ioquake3 for example.
A high speed camera for this purpose alone would be somewhat financially irresponsible. However, I do have a good DSLR as well as a good CRT, so I can do the timer method. The lag difference should be 6ms, so the difference between DAS on and off should be apparent on a timer that updates fast enough for 120hz.

I'm having an unusually hard time finding anything other than the SMTT 2.0, which is expensive.

StrobeMaster
Posts: 48
Joined: 25 Apr 2014, 01:31

Re: To LG 24GM77 Owners: DAS + Motion 240

Post by StrobeMaster » 11 Aug 2016, 05:53

Erecshyrinol wrote:This is where I need your assistance. If one of you has this monitor as well as the means to check for a difference in input lag, I'd very much appreciate if you tried this "hack" and reported your findings.
As expected, it is just another firmware inconsistency. I tried with DVI and DP at 100Hz and 120Hz, but switching DAS via the extra DAS button while Motion240 was on did not make any difference regarding input lag (or regarding anything else).
Erecshyrinol wrote:I've read this article before and I wasn't able to conclude whether the extra 5~6ms of lag can be attributed to the lack of DAS under Motion 240 or if it's in addition to the lack of DAS.
The extra lag is just because of the missing DAS (so not in addition), and it is in comparison to a "zero-lag" monitor that has a strobed backlight and is driven by a VT-tweaked signal. Such monitor could start the accelerated panel update earliest about 2ms after having received the first line of the new image, whereas the LG waits an entire frame cycle before it starts updating (as can be seen in this recording, left panel at 8ms), which makes a lag difference of 8.333ms-2ms=6.333ms (at 120Hz). The LG might gain another millisecond or so by having placed the strobe rather early with respect to VSYNC, but at this point the comparison with other monitors gets rather vague, because the lag value will depend more on how you define "lag" than on what you will measure. So much depends on the strobe timing (phase and width), where on the screen you measure, and what fraction of screen pixels have to have settled to which level at strobe time.

Erecshyrinol
Posts: 65
Joined: 05 Aug 2016, 12:25

Re: To LG 24GM77 Owners: DAS + Motion 240

Post by Erecshyrinol » 11 Aug 2016, 09:08

StrobeMaster wrote:
Erecshyrinol wrote:This is where I need your assistance. If one of you has this monitor as well as the means to check for a difference in input lag, I'd very much appreciate if you tried this "hack" and reported your findings.
As expected, it is just another firmware inconsistency. I tried with DVI and DP at 100Hz and 120Hz, but switching DAS via the extra DAS button while Motion240 was on did not make any difference regarding input lag (or regarding anything else).
Erecshyrinol wrote:I've read this article before and I wasn't able to conclude whether the extra 5~6ms of lag can be attributed to the lack of DAS under Motion 240 or if it's in addition to the lack of DAS.
The extra lag is just because of the missing DAS (so not in addition), and it is in comparison to a "zero-lag" monitor that has a strobed backlight and is driven by a VT-tweaked signal. Such monitor could start the accelerated panel update earliest about 2ms after having received the first line of the new image, whereas the LG waits an entire frame cycle before it starts updating (as can be seen in this recording, left panel at 8ms), which makes a lag difference of 8.333ms-2ms=6.333ms (at 120Hz). The LG might gain another millisecond or so by having placed the strobe rather early with respect to VSYNC, but at this point the comparison with other monitors gets rather vague, because the lag value will depend more on how you define "lag" than on what you will measure. So much depends on the strobe timing (phase and width), where on the screen you measure, and what fraction of screen pixels have to have settled to which level at strobe time.
Thanks a lot man. This settles it then.

I played around with this monitor a bit more and discovered an additional bug. For whatever goddamn reason, the on/off for the autobrightess function is reversed in the OSD. Whenever I turned it "off" and lowered the brightness to 0%, I could clearly see it increase a bit within a few seconds. But when I turned autobrightness on, I could dial the thing in properly without it acting up.

Additional note -- LG is actually still producing these and they are not discontinued after all. The sticker on mine said it was manufactured in 2016. If that's no proof enough, it's listed again on LG's website (until recently, this monitor was in the discontinued section):

http://www.lg.com/us/gaming-monitors

I think they realized how sought-after this monitor is. And really, it is a very good model. Apart from the decent contrast and colors, overdrive implementation is just impeccable. If strobing didn't add any input lag and was as configurable as BenQ's, this would be the definite 24'' TN gaming solution.

I was slightly disappointed with the coating though. I was lead to believe that it is lighter than usual for 144hz monitors, but it still appeared quite dirty on bright whites with clearly visible "grease". So this is lighter than usual, huh? I will be returning this and getting the 2430t tomorrow, but honestly, I'm a bit afraid of what the coating will be like on that.

StrobeMaster
Posts: 48
Joined: 25 Apr 2014, 01:31

Re: To LG 24GM77 Owners: DAS + Motion 240

Post by StrobeMaster » 11 Aug 2016, 10:07

Erecshyrinol wrote:I played around with this monitor a bit more and discovered an additional bug. For whatever goddamn reason, the on/off for the autobrightess function is reversed in the OSD. Whenever I turned it "off" and lowered the brightness to 0%, I could clearly see it increase a bit within a few seconds. But when I turned autobrightness on, I could dial the thing in properly without it acting up.
Yes, this is confusing but not necessarily a bug. "Autobrightness on/off" just tells you what will happen when you go there. And changing the brightness setting should actually deactivate Autobrightness automatically.
Erecshyrinol wrote:Additional note -- LG is actually still producing these and they are not discontinued after all. The sticker on mine said it was manufactured in 2016. If that's no proof enough, it's listed again on LG's website (until recently, this monitor was in the discontinued section):

http://www.lg.com/us/gaming-monitors

I think they realized how sought-after this monitor is. And really, it is a very good model. Apart from the decent contrast and colors, overdrive implementation is just impeccable. If strobing didn't add any input lag and was as configurable as BenQ's, this would be the definite 24'' TN gaming solution.
That is interesting. But I guess we shouldn't get our hopes up about LG updating the firmware. Eh, maybe they already did. Could you check the firmware version of your monitor? Anybody out there who sees a FW version > 3.04 in the service menu? (Have the monitor connected to a valid signal source. The service menu can be entered by keeping the ">" button (right-most of the 5 control buttons) pushed while powering on the monitor. The normal OSD menu is replaced by the service menu then and is not available until power-cycling the monitor).
Erecshyrinol wrote:I was slightly disappointed with the coating though. I was lead to believe that it is lighter than usual for 144hz monitors, but it still appeared quite dirty on bright whites with clearly visible "grease". So this is lighter than usual, huh? I will be returning this and getting the 2430t tomorrow, but honestly, I'm a bit afraid of what the coating will be like on that.
Isn't the 2430T using the same panel, which would mean the same coating?

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