Best low motion blur new monitor with good colours? New LG?

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
KindOldRaven
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Re: Best low motion blur new monitor with good colours? New

Post by KindOldRaven » 03 Apr 2018, 03:00

Chief Blur Buster wrote:How about IPS with ULMB?

IPS with ULMB is much better than OLED in motion clarity.

ASUS ROG PG279Q - 27" 2560x1440 IPS 165Hz G-SYNC
Acer Predator XB271HU - 27" 2560x1440 IPS 165Hz G-SYNC
AOC AG271QG - 27" 2560x1440 IPS 165Hz G-SYNC
Viewsonic XG2703-GS - 27" 2560x1440 IPS 165Hz G-SYNC
Acer Predator XB270HU - 27" 2560x1440 IPS 144Hz G-SYNC

These all have the Dell colors, because they are exactly the same panel technology (IPS) as the Dell.

Except these have 165Hz + G-SYNC and they have a Ultra Low Motion Blur (U.L.M.B.) setting.

ULMB essentially matches CRT motion clarity. ULMB has much less motion blur than the LG OLED, though you will get a slight amount of strobe crosstalk (minor amount of sharp double-image effect).
rasseru wrote:Input lag is a no-no.
While ULMB adds a very minor amount of input lag (half a refresh cycle) -- let's put things in perspective. An molehill for a mountain...

ULMB TN has less input lag than normal VA (non-strobed)
Also all ULMB monitors have less input lag than the LG C6 OLED.
ULMB adds less lag than most OLED and VA LCDs.
And you can turn ON/OFF ULMB, it's a setting that you can turn ON/OFF.
Please pardon me for the offtopic, but even googling isn't getting me much answers on this one: Do you have any links/numbers on the VA panels (or specifically: CFG73 series) input lag? I know about the slow 100%-0% transition times ofcourse when it comes to response times, but on the input I can't find any numbers. I highly doubt it's the 23ms tftcentral claims it is though.

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lexlazootin
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Re: Best low motion blur new monitor with good colours? New

Post by lexlazootin » 03 Apr 2018, 04:59

where does it say it has 23ms of input latency? or are you talking about pixel response? i couldn't find anything about 23ms on the page of the C32HG70 which i'm assuming you're talking about.

TFTcentral would know way more then any of us, i would trust them.

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Re: Best low motion blur new monitor with good colours? New

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 03 Apr 2018, 09:23

VA usually has more input lag than TN, usually at least 1 refresh cycle input lag.

TFTCentral's lag results are VSYNC OFF biased (1000fps SMTT test) so they tend to produce lower numbers than other websites which uses things like Leo Bodnar (VSYNC ON biased lag test, 60fps). I would ignore the decimal digits ("4.89, round them off to the nearest millisecond.

Double-digit numbers is not unusual for 60Hz VA panels at all, unfortunately -- those are common numbers for VA.

If you look at an average VA panel on any lag-test website (like HDTVs tested by RTings/DisplayLag, or monitors tested by TFTCentral), you will see that many VA panels usually are laggier than TN/IPS too. TFTCentral utilizes some BlurBusters inventions for their tests and their lag results are more useful to CS:GO players than sites that use Leo Bodnar, because of the VSYNC OFF bias in their lag tests versus the usual VSYNC ON bias of most other lag tests (which is good for consoles).

We even talk to other lag testing sites and understand the benefits & flaws of specific lag tests and why lag test numbers vary between different websites. We're among the only few people in the world to articulate this very well, so you won't find much in Google except for us when it comes to nuances/subtleties/strangeness/differences in lag test numbers between websites.

The general rule of thumb is strobing adds a half a refresh cycle lag. 240Hz strobing only adds average 2ms lag, and 120Hz strobing only adds average 4ms lag.

And since it's an ON/OFF setting, the lag suddenly disappears when ULMB is turned to the "OFF" setting in the monitor's OSD menu. The clarity is, however, worth it in several games. For eSports CS:GO you may want the fastest 240Hz TN, but if you're concerned about beauty of IPS colors, with a good compromise in latency, image quality, and access to low motion blur, then listen very carefully to my words: "1440p 165Hz IPS GSYNC" -- and you'll get your DELL colors with low lag, and approx >50% less blur than your DELL (in non-ULMB 120fps material) or 90% less blur than your DELL (if you choose to turn on ULMB mode). And GSYNC fixing the stutters too (if you use GSYNC).

For CRT oldtimers but those who have never, ever seen strobing before, the magic of an LCD suddenly magically responding 10x faster when turning on a "ULMB" checkbox, is sometimes somewhat shocking improvement to motion blur (back in 2012, see disbelieving "WOW" testimonials of the old-fashioned LightBoost. Back then, people were genuinely shocked that an LCD could match CRT motion clarity... We understand how it can be done (high speed video of LightBoost that explains strobing can essentially break the GtG pixel response barrier in a creative way). This YouTube video has been seen 250,000 times, and has long been the gold standard in explaining how a strobe backlight can hide most LCD GtG pixel limitations from human eyes. Now monitor manufacturers make strobe backlight features standard in many high-Hz monitors, for motion-blur-sensitive people. Some people don't care much, but other people really do -- and the subject line of this forum post is "best low motion blur new monitor with good colors". So these links are mandatory reading for those people who still do not believe LCDs can approach CRT motion clarity via a strobe backlight mode (ULMB, LightBoost, ELMB, Blur Reduction, DyAc, or all the various trade names manufacturers now come up for darn nearly exactly the same technique). We're the website that originally started up to design a strobe backlight, until LightBoost hacks were found, and now some manufacturers utilize our Engineering a strobe backlight guide -- some monitors have a strobe backlight now because of us.

Or you could get a strobed VA monitor. Still, you're going to have unavoidable VA lag, they have tended not to be ideal championship-league eSports monitors due to that.

VA are nice panels for what they do, great colors, but let's put things in perspective -- blur reduction is an "avoidable" lag since it's an ON/OFF setting, and blur reduction lag is a smaller lag penalty than VA lag itself.
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KindOldRaven
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Re: Best low motion blur new monitor with good colours? New

Post by KindOldRaven » 03 Apr 2018, 14:28

lexlazootin wrote:where does it say it has 23ms of input latency? or are you talking about pixel response? i couldn't find anything about 23ms on the page of the C32HG70 which i'm assuming you're talking about.

TFTcentral would know way more then any of us, i would trust them.
I'll go check the link when I get back home tomorrow. But I meant in the c27fg73 and it's smaller brothers. They fast, strobing VA panels with crazy colors and image quality if you're lucky to get a good panel, but something felt 'off' to me in CSGO/OW/FN and it felt like the slightest disconnect between mouse and cursor, even though my girl and best friend said I was crazy. Couldn't find anything despite extensive Googling and insane praise for the panels but didn't think it deserved its own thread quite. But I think Chief's response above clears things up quite a bit. Guess I'm not a total mental patient just yet ;D Please excuse the slight hijack and thanks to you, Chief, for the in depth answer.


EDIT:
Can confirm wat Chief said below this post: there are no purple artifact issues on this monitor. Even uniformity is quite good, way better than I expected to be honest. I'll even go as far as to say it's nigh-perfect for me so far, besides it feeling slightly ''off'' compared to the TN's I've tested. But this might be because the slightly more pronounced smearing & VA input lag combined make it feel different when playing CSGO or other fast titles. It also strobes at 60hz btw, but the result isn't all too pretty, as expected. Tested it with Dark Souls 3 to try both 60hz strobing & use the dark scenes to spot any purple artifacting with or without strobing. No artifacts found, though.
Last edited by KindOldRaven on 03 Apr 2018, 16:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: Best low motion blur new monitor with good colours? New

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 03 Apr 2018, 15:42

One additional note: For those considering the CFG70 series, consider the -73 series because those fix the purple VA ghosting problems. I hear good reports from the CFG73 if you're more worried about quality than input lag. I suspect newer revisions of the CFG70s have fixed the purple ghosting issue already, but it's worth mentioning this for those people who would like to see a little more progress in VA ghosting issues.

TIP: VA panels are more thermally sensitive than TN, ideally warm them up for 30 minutes to reduce strobe crosstalk during VA strobing. The crosstalk double-images effect becomes worse on a "just-only-turned-on" strobed VA in a cold room during the winter. We all know what happens to an freezingly-cold LCDs, and that even affects monitors too! Even 5 degrees makes a big difference in dark-greys VA ghosting improvements.
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Re: Best low motion blur new monitor with good colours? New

Post by rasseru » 03 Apr 2018, 16:49

Well, i've ordered a PG278QR & XB272, with 14 day money back guarantee, i'll have to see how they are. if these arent enough, i guess i'm a bit stuck till future tech. i'll know more on thursday


I didnt realise it was such a complex subject! kudos for all the work people ;)

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Re: Best low motion blur new monitor with good colours? New

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 03 Apr 2018, 20:56

rasseru wrote:Well, i've ordered a PG278QR & XB272, with 14 day money back guarantee, i'll have to see how they are. if these arent enough, i guess i'm a bit stuck till future tech. i'll know more on thursday
Just a heads up, these two displays are both TN panels (not as good as DELL colors).

They can serve pretty well, as TN is faster, but I guess the IPS 1440p models were too expensive for your budget? (Or you were worried about strobe crosstalk)?

P.S. Which platform games do you usually play?
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Re: Best low motion blur new monitor with good colours? New

Post by rasseru » 04 Apr 2018, 03:51

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
rasseru wrote:Well, i've ordered a PG278QR & XB272, with 14 day money back guarantee, i'll have to see how they are. if these arent enough, i guess i'm a bit stuck till future tech. i'll know more on thursday
Just a heads up, these two displays are both TN panels (not as good as DELL colors).

They can serve pretty well, as TN is faster, but I guess the IPS 1440p models were too expensive for your budget? (Or you were worried about strobe crosstalk)?

P.S. Which platform games do you usually play?

Yeah i'm aware they are TN. (I was worried about strobe crosstalk, I wanted to try the faster panels first and do a bit of testing) Seeing as shops have a 14 day money back guarantee, no questions, I thought I would first:

try two 27", 1080p & 1440p - to see how I feel about either of these sizes with a fast TN panel. Send back whichever I like less. - If I think the ULMB is so perfect I cannot notice any crosstalk or any blurring on the 1440p 165hz TN - then buy an IPS or VA to compare side-by-side and choose the best one.

If I dont think the ULMB is good enough for spending £££ I will probably just keep the cheaper 1080p monitor and wait for HDMI 8K or whatever comes out in the next year or two, follow and chat with you guys on the forum here, keep up with the tech.

I'm sure it will be a big improvement over my current gaming setup anyway - I play a lot of indie games (platformers, shmups, beat em ups) & FPS. Also retro emus.

For example - I have Rayman Legends to play, as well as Great gianna sisters, The Cave, Brothers ToTS, Ori, Trine, etc. I have never played more than a few minutes of these because the whole beauty of the environments and characters turn into a horrible blur when you move. It might as well be VVVVVV because every game just looks like a blur.

I'm guessing ULMB might serve me really well - I have a 1080 and in any FPS game (Prey, Wolfenstein, Vermintide) i'm hitting 150+ FPS with a few tweaks at 1440p

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Re: Best low motion blur new monitor with good colours? New

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 04 Apr 2018, 09:29

rasseru wrote:For example - I have Rayman Legends to play, as well as Great gianna sisters, The Cave, Brothers ToTS, Ori, Trine, etc. I have never played more than a few minutes of these because the whole beauty of the environments and characters turn into a horrible blur when you move. It might as well be VVVVVV because every game just looks like a blur.
Emulator platformers.... Don't forget to do the ULMB 60 Hz Hack!
Both monitors (AFAIK) supports the ULMB 60 Hz hack.

Or enable the emulator's software BFI to convert 120Hz strobing to 60Hz strobing.

You will get CRT-like 60Hz flicker, but that is the price of CRT-style "fast-motion-as-sharp-as-stationary-images" effect.
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Re: Best low motion blur new monitor with good colours? New

Post by rasseru » 04 Apr 2018, 10:38

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
rasseru wrote:For example - I have Rayman Legends to play, as well as Great gianna sisters, The Cave, Brothers ToTS, Ori, Trine, etc. I have never played more than a few minutes of these because the whole beauty of the environments and characters turn into a horrible blur when you move. It might as well be VVVVVV because every game just looks like a blur.
Emulator platformers.... Don't forget to do the ULMB 60 Hz Hack!
Both monitors (AFAIK) supports the ULMB 60 Hz hack.

Or enable the emulator's software BFI to convert 120Hz strobing to 60Hz strobing.

You will get CRT-like 60Hz flicker, but that is the price of CRT-style "fast-motion-as-sharp-as-stationary-images" effect.

Is it exactly the same as old CRT flicker? I used to prefer my Diamondtron at 60hz due to the sharpness of the image - 85hz+ softened it a bit too much. 60hz like this didnt give me eyestrain or headaches, blur is worse for me. (i was born 1980, grew up with CRTs)

I'm quite excited now, I loved that old monitor

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