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Can OLED, ULED XD, MicroLED,... be blur free under 60Hz?

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Can OLED, ULED XD, MicroLED,... be blur free under 60Hz?

Postby rasmas » 23 May 2019, 10:02

Hi all,
So, do you know if any of the upcoming tecnologies (OLED, ULED XD, MicroLED, not sure if more) can show close to CRT sharp images under 60Hz, and without strobing? (for monitors at least).

I'm having a hard time replacing an old LG W2261V that broke. It was not too good but i guess i got used to it because everything else i'm trying, look worse. Maybe the problem is that i've been using an old (greeny) CRT, and even not being good at all i get better "feeling" than with LCDs. Maybe, with time, the LCDs i try will get better, like with headphones, but first impression is not as good as it should after all these years.
Strobe backlight could be an alternative but i don't like it as it need 100% stable FPS and a really powerfull PC to sustain them at really high FPS.

So, again, any new tech will be able to show "blurless" images or only strobing can do it?

And, any estimated release date for the technology that can achieve it? Just to know if i can wait for it or keep the CRT xD .

Thank you for this great web ;) .
rasmas
 
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Re: Can OLED, ULED XD, MicroLED,... be blur free under 60Hz?

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 23 May 2019, 10:32

rasmas wrote:under 60Hz, and without strobing? (for monitors at least).

For any display, laws of physics means any nonstrobed 60fps @ 60Hz can never have no motion blur.

CRTs strobed because of phosphor decay, and it requires an impulse-driven display to eliminate motion blur of 60fps.

You can instead increase frame rate (interpolation), there are frame rate amplification technologies that can eliminate motion blur strobelessly. There are low-lag Game Mode interpolation systems now, such as those in several Samsung TVs (beginning with the NU8000 series onwards).

rasmas wrote:Strobe backlight could be an alternative but i don't like it as it need 100% stable FPS and a really powerfull PC to sustain them at really high FPS.

Both CRTs and strobe backlights have exactly the same "100% stable FPS" requirement. There's no difference.

It's already known that stutters are always more visible on CRTs than on LCDs too, same thing. Stutter mechanics can look different at higher framerates (e.g. 120fps) than at a low frame rates.

That said if you don't mind stutters on 60Hz CRT -- just get a 60Hz strobe backlight such as the BenQ Zowie XL2411P. Many vendors strobe-lock their monitors to 100Hz or 120Hz because they don't want flicker complaints, but on an engineering basis, it's easier to strobe at lower Hz -- it's just not a feature available in many models.

The stutter mechanics of a 120Hz strobe backlight is similar to the stutter mechanics of a 120Hz CRT. It's as if some monitors behave like fixed-frequency 100Hz/120Hz CRTs when a strobe backlight is enabled. The main problem is that many strobe backlights are locked to only strobe at a high rate, which makes it hard to lower the refresh rate while keeping strobing. Flexible-Hz strobing is not easy to find, but is found in many BenQ Zowie monitors.

That said, global strobing is a bit more harsh than scanline-at-a-time strobing (CRT scanning meant *something somewhere* was at least always being illuminated at a time, for more constant amount of photons hitting the eyeballs).
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Re: Can OLED, ULED XD, MicroLED,... be blur free under 60Hz?

Postby rasmas » 24 May 2019, 09:46

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
rasmas wrote:under 60Hz, and without strobing? (for monitors at least).

For any display, laws of physics means any nonstrobed 60fps @ 60Hz can never have no motion blur.

CRTs strobed because of phosphor decay, and it requires an impulse-driven display to eliminate motion blur of 60fps.

You can instead increase frame rate (interpolation), there are frame rate amplification technologies that can eliminate motion blur strobelessly. There are low-lag Game Mode interpolation systems now, such as those in several Samsung TVs (beginning with the NU8000 series onwards).

rasmas wrote:Strobe backlight could be an alternative but i don't like it as it need 100% stable FPS and a really powerfull PC to sustain them at really high FPS.

Both CRTs and strobe backlights have exactly the same "100% stable FPS" requirement. There's no difference.

It's already known that stutters are always more visible on CRTs than on LCDs too, same thing. Stutter mechanics can look different at higher framerates (e.g. 120fps) than at a low frame rates.

That said if you don't mind stutters on 60Hz CRT -- just get a 60Hz strobe backlight such as the BenQ Zowie XL2411P. Many vendors strobe-lock their monitors to 100Hz or 120Hz because they don't want flicker complaints, but on an engineering basis, it's easier to strobe at lower Hz -- it's just not a feature available in many models.

The stutter mechanics of a 120Hz strobe backlight is similar to the stutter mechanics of a 120Hz CRT. It's as if some monitors behave like fixed-frequency 100Hz/120Hz CRTs when a strobe backlight is enabled. The main problem is that many strobe backlights are locked to only strobe at a high rate, which makes it hard to lower the refresh rate while keeping strobing. Flexible-Hz strobing is not easy to find, but is found in many BenQ Zowie monitors.

That said, global strobing is a bit more harsh than scanline-at-a-time strobing (CRT scanning meant *something somewhere* was at least always being illuminated at a time, for more constant amount of photons hitting the eyeballs).

Thank you for the detailed answer, and sorry for late reply ;) .

I had no idea strobe could work fine at 60Hz. I had read that at 60Hz, although possible, it would look way worse than on any CRT, and only at +100FPS it was worthy-similar to CRTs. And also (not sure about this), with big changes of framerate (100-30) LCDs strobing work worse than CRTs (double-strobing?).

Anyway, so there is no newer technology that will have better blur?(at least better than LCDs). Although i "know" about OLED blur, i thought OLED will make it much better than LCDs; and with ULED XD, MicroLED,... i thought that maybe these will have less blur without the OLED problems. Maybe better with Black Frame Insertion, but a BFI made better than with LCDs.

So, in short, there is no point on waiting for newer technologies, as none will get same "blurless" image than CRTs or Plasma can get, right? And with BFI will all behave equally, or any will be better?

Thank you again ;) .

P.S. I still have not clear some concepts, so sorry if asking stupid questions ;) .
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Re: Can OLED, ULED XD, MicroLED,... be blur free under 60Hz?

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 24 May 2019, 12:09

rasmas wrote:I had no idea strobe could work fine at 60Hz. I had read that at 60Hz, although possible, it would look way worse than on any CRT, and only at +100FPS it was worthy-similar to CRTs.

The chief difference is that 60Hz strobe looks more flickery than 60Hz CRT because:
- It's a global strobe (all screen flashed at once, rather than CRT illuminating part of screen at a time in a scanning fashion)
- It's a squarewave strobe (no gentle phosphor decay curve)

That's why strobing looks better at a higher Hz. However, the "zero motion blur effect" is good, and the "stutter" appearance is the same.
It just simply merely flickers a lot more. 60Hz strobe = more flickery than 60Hz CRT. That's it.

You must compare apples vs apples though. 100Hz stutter versus 60Hz stutter, regardless of whether you do CRT or strobed LCD. Many people compare 60Hz CRT versus 120Hz LightBoost, but the stutter mechanics are totally different, much like comparing 60Hz CRT versus 120Hz CRT. 60fps@60Hz looks smoother than 80fps@120Hz on a CRT, and the same happens when comparing two strobed LCDs. Locking the frame rate to refresh rate often looks better on a CRT.

rasmas wrote:And also (not sure about this), with big changes of framerate (100-30) LCDs strobing work worse than CRTs (double-strobing?).

No, the stutter mechanics looks quite similar on CRT and LCDs. For the same framerate fluctuation onto the same screen.

The same framerate fluctuations show the same amplified-stutter effect of lack of motion blur.

It's simply just that LCD motion blur hide stutter. So that's a double-edged sword. A pro & con. If you hated stutter but didn't mind motion blur, then non-strobed LCDs were so much better for the same stutter-fluctuation. However, if you hated motion blur, then that's a big problem.

rasmas wrote:Anyway, so there is no newer technology that will have better blur?(at least better than LCDs). Although i "know" about OLED blur, i thought OLED will make it much better than LCDs; and with ULED XD, MicroLED,... i thought that maybe these will have less blur without the OLED problems. Maybe better with Black Frame Insertion, but a BFI made better than with LCDs.

BFI can be better on an OLED if it's a rolling-window scan just like on a CRT.

rasmas wrote:So, in short, there is no point on waiting for newer technologies, as none will get same "blurless" image than CRTs or Plasma can get, right?

In some of the better displays, strobing has improved to the point where you'll need to wait another 5 years plus for any big jump. The first OLED strobe will probably cost a lot (I would not be surprised for >$1000-$2000 for the first strobed OLED gaming monitor, it'd probably be priced similar to the 4K 144Hz locally dimmed displays) -- so easily, you'd be waiting many years.

If you're currently on a 60Hz display, whatever you will be getting will be a big upgrade.

A good 240Hz already reduces motion blur by 75% without needing strobing, as 240fps@240Hz can have one-quarter the motion blur of the fastest, possible 0ms 60Hz nonstrobed display (whether that be OLED, LCD, or whatever). So if you want flickerfree blur reduction without interpolation, then your best way is 240Hz. And might as well get GSYNC/FreeSync while you're at it too.

rasmas wrote:And with BFI will all behave equally, or any will be better?

It's all in the curve, photodiode oscilloscope curve -- whether it's squarewave or whatever. Comparing squarewave versus squarewave, BFI looks identical on all displays regardless of display technology. But there's millions of ways to do BFI. You can do fuzzy-edge rolling-scan BFI. You can do global BFI. You can do a fade-BFI. You can do a squarewave-BFI. The shape of the BFI curve on a light-flicker graph, is the key.

But for identical curve-versus-curve, it looks the same blur no matter what the display tech is (LCD, OLED, whatever).

The most mathematically simple one is the squarewave BFI.

For squarewave (on/off BFI), the motion blur mathematics is quite pure and simple:
50%:50% ON:OFF BFI = reduces motion blur by 50%
25%:75% ON:OFF BFI = reduces motion blur by 75%
10%:90% ON:OFF BFI = reduces motion blur by 90%
Etc.

This is identical on all displays, regardless of tech.

Now, not all displays behave BFI in the same way -- for example phosphor doesn't turn off instantly. It fades. The fade effect softens things a bit but can also make things less harsh on the yes (less flicker appearance) so it's a pro/con. The math is a lot more complicated with curvy BFI like that. But needless to say, how much BFI reduces motion blur is all in the curve. But if it's resembling squarewave (like strobing or rolling-scan OLED pulsing), then the motion blur math tends to be relatively simple.

A ULMB strobe backlight is roughly equivalent to a ~90% BFI (10% ON, 90% OFF)

That said, 50% BFI reduces motion blur by 50%. So you can either use 120Hz+ "50% BFI" or you can use 240Hz (no BFI) to get pretty much exactly the same motion blur. Double the Hz (and frame rate) can halve motion blur on a non-BFI display. So why only 50% BFI if you can also reduce motion blur strobelessly too?

And also, keep in mind if a BFI is designed to do a curve that mimics phosphor decay, it would also look like phosphor decay too. That said, it's challenging because most good blur-reduction modes use global-strobe backlights/edgelights, which don't rollingscan like a CRT does, so it can't easily be made identical unless it is engineered into a FALD design, which has its own engineering complications/issues too.

Now, how this boils down to deciding waiting or buying now, I can confirm there will not be dramatic improvements in the next 5 years so if you're waiting, there is no need to wait much more. On the other hand if you have specific needs like "I want 120Hz plus about 50% BFI in an OLED", then LG may be releasing such a panel in 2020.

It depends on what you're looking for. Console gaming. PC gaming. Television. Desktop monitor. How much motion blur reduction you really want. Etc.
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Re: Can OLED, ULED XD, MicroLED,... be blur free under 60Hz?

Postby rasmas » 25 May 2019, 07:00

Again, great answers, i have to read them twice to start to understand them a bit ;) .

Well, i have nothing at all against strobing (i'm fine with my "greeny" CRT), but i tend to use PCs and monitors for a lot of time so i look for the best that can work fine at low FPS.
I highly doubt i can reach stable 240 FPS for a 240Hz monitor; probably not even 120Hz. I would have to change my PC parts pretty often.

Chief Blur Buster wrote:... "I want 120Hz plus about 50% BFI in an OLED", then LG may be releasing such a panel in 2020.

Thanks for the info, thought only ASUS and DELL were working on OLED; but, while i wait, i'll need something :P .

Chief Blur Buster wrote:...It depends on what you're looking for. Console gaming. PC gaming. Television. Desktop monitor. How much motion blur reduction you really want. Etc.

For me, the perfect monitor would be for PC gaming (50% and browsing-text 50%), should be 1080p (to last more years), it could work with unstable low FPS (60-30, maybe lower), and be as sharp as possible (by any method). I think it should be like a CRT 60Hz without CRT problems (can't really say what problems are :P ).

Maybe the best option (for me) is to find a decent LCD that has not too bad blur and try to get used to it.
I'm testing one right now that seems pretty decent although blurrier than the CRT (obviously), but wanted to know if any newer tech can get closer to CRTs at low FPS.
Guess it is pretty hard to achieve the perfect monitor :D .

Thank you very much for the great answers ;) .

P.S. Just as example as how much do i tend to use PCs, these are my current specs :D : i7 930, 6GB DDR3, AMD 6870.
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Re: Can OLED, ULED XD, MicroLED,... be blur free under 60Hz?

Postby rasmas » 26 May 2019, 08:59

I've been thinking and, if you don't mind: in your opinion which monitors would perform better at low FPS?

I can't really see a big improvement between my CRT and LDCs despite all the years from one to the new ones. Yes, static images are great, and colours too, but there should be a huge difference. Actually cannot see a big improvement from my old LG W2261V (i could revive it a few days and i could compare).
I tried the LG 24MP59G-P but both, with and without strobing, looked pretty much the same and had same blur (yes, ufo test had a bit clearer image while strobing, but on normal use there was no difference), also both modes looked more blurry than the old LG W2261V. I use the photo test (it is the best test for me, thanks for doing it ;) ) and could not see anything clearer than with the old LG.

So, if you don't mind, can you list some monitors so i can take a look?

Thank you in advance ;) .
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Re: Can OLED, ULED XD, MicroLED,... be blur free under 60Hz?

Postby rasmas » 28 May 2019, 10:21

This is a bit off-topic of my own thread but as it is related i don't think i should make a new thead (let me know anyway).

I have reading (again) about OLED and although it, in theory, should not have too much difference about blur (and everything else, except blacks) in comparison with other display methods, people still see less blur and have better experience overall (even at 1080p on a 4k TV).
- Is there any explanation or just placebo? (maybe it adds some kind of black frame insertion or something LED cannot do?).
- Will ULED XD, MicroLED or anything else, be able to match what ever makes OLED "better"?

If only there were a 30" TV or something like that i could try myself..., but still i am seriously thinking on 55" TV just for games (despite no perfect input lag). I would need a side monitor just for browsing, text..., so it is a tricky thing but just want to get some expert input on the matter :P .

Thanks in advance ;) .
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Re: Can OLED, ULED XD, MicroLED,... be blur free under 60Hz?

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 28 May 2019, 10:34

rasmas wrote: have reading (again) about OLED and although it, in theory, should not have too much difference about blur (and everything else, except blacks) in comparison with other display methods, people still see less blur and have better experience overall (even at 1080p on a 4k TV).

GtG still affects blur to an extent. And how imperfect the pixel response is (GtG) -- bad overdrive, ghosting, etc. LCD Motion Artifacts and LCD Overdrive Artifacts.

There's definitely less blur with OLED because of their faster and cleaner GtG pixel response. But they now reach almost the theoretical perfect sample-and-hold display, and are still prone to motion blur from being a sample-and-hold display. You've zeroed out the majority of visibility GtG problems, getting to the lowest possible motion blur without impulsing or strobing.

rasmas wrote:- Is there any explanation or just placebo? (maybe it adds some kind of black frame insertion or something LED cannot do?).

Not all OLEDs have black frame insertion. See Why Does Some OLEDs Have Motion Blur?. They just have less motion blur than many typical LCDs because of the faster pixel response.

But they are still beholden to the law of physics from the sample-and-hold effect (non-strobed displays) because as you track your eyes on moving images, your eyes are in a different position at the beginning and end of a refresh cycle. The pixels of a refresh cycles stay stationary for their duraction, so can be blurred across your retinas as you track your moving eyes. RTINGs has a great video of the motion blurring from the sample-and-hold effect, and how they use a test that I invented:

phpBB [video]


rasmas wrote:- Will ULED XD, MicroLED or anything else, be able to match what ever makes OLED "better"?

The more perfect GtG becomes, the more identical displays become in motion blur, so I will assume identical. One has to add more frames or add black periods between frames, to reduce motion blur further. Display motion blur is dictated by the pixel visibility time

Have you seen motion blur on an OLED monitor? Do you mind or hate the motion blur you see? Are you a CRT/plasma user who has been picky about motion blur?
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       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors
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Re: Can OLED, ULED XD, MicroLED,... be blur free under 60Hz?

Postby rasmas » 28 May 2019, 12:01

That makes sense. Thank you :) .
Chief Blur Buster wrote:...
The more perfect GtG becomes, the more identical displays become in motion blur, so I will assume identical. One has to add more frames or add black periods between frames, to reduce motion blur further. Display motion blur is dictated by the pixel visibility time
...

So all methods would be able to have perfect GtG, but it does not seem an easy task as does not seem that anyone is close to OLED GtG.
Chief Blur Buster wrote:...
Have you seen motion blur on an OLED monitor? Do you mind or hate the motion blur you see? Are you a CRT/plasma user who has been picky about motion blur?

I'd like to see motion blur on an OLED TVs but they always have these "beautiful, slow moving, 4k videos" and to test it with games i'd have to buy one, and if i do maybe i'll have to keep it xD .
With my LCD (LG W2261V) i have always had eye strain, never thought it could be a problem with the monitor, still unsure now but as i have had to use a CRT i had find that blur is something i don't like at all.
I think i can get used to LCD blur (as i did with the LG- that, when i can "revive" it, looks better than newer LCDs i'm trying, no idea why-), but having a CRT i have my doubts if it is worthy to try LCDs or i should stay on the CRT until a "real" upgrade appears.
Unfortunatelly i don't think any real upgrade is going to appear on the market anytime soon (not counting 55" OLED TVs, that maybe are the only alternative).

Thanks for the detailed answers ;) .
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