ULMB vs CRT

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
konchy
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ULMB vs CRT

Post by konchy » 29 Sep 2019, 05:30

Hi all,

I"m currently using a 144Hz Acer lcd monitor with Visual Response Boost (Acer's version of ULMB).
At the moment, there is someone selling a CRT that can do 1280 x 1024 x 75Hz.

Will the CRT give me less motion blur than my current LCD monitor during fast flicks in FPS games such as Rainbow Six Siege?

Thanks!

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RealNC
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Re: ULMB vs CRT

Post by RealNC » 29 Sep 2019, 07:39

Yes. But that CRT sounds like a cheap low-end model. Usually, CRTs are around 1600x1200@120Hz.
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konchy
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Re: ULMB vs CRT

Post by konchy » 29 Sep 2019, 08:11

Thanks.

I may go ahead and get that monitor then. Because in my region, it is pretty had to find any crt better specced than 1024 x 768 x 75Hz. And I've been searching for months too...

It would be great if there is some high speed camera footage of 144hz ulmb vs 60hz / 75 hz / 85 hz / 100hz / 120 hz and see at which point ulmb catches up to crt.

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Re: ULMB vs CRT

Post by RealNC » 29 Sep 2019, 08:38

It's safe to say it can't compete with CRTs. For example, there is no such thing as crosstalk and brightness loss with CRTs. Also, you can run a CRT at 60Hz if you want for 60FPS-locked games and the flicker will not be as severe as 60Hz ULMB. 60Hz CRT is much easier on the eyes. There is still flicker, but not as bad as ULMB.

As for motion blur, it depends on the quality of the phosphor of the CRT, and perhaps how much use it has seen over the years. CRTs that were used 24/7 for years for example could have smearing (and also poor contrast) due to the phosphor having deteriorated.
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Re: ULMB vs CRT

Post by konchy » 29 Sep 2019, 20:24

I see.

The main reason I am planning to purchase a CRT is for better motion blur. Is there any way to check the quality of the phosphor before I purchase? Will just turning it on and looking at the color be sufficient?

Edit: Nvm, found several articles on checking for geometry, color, contrast, etc.

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Re: ULMB vs CRT

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 30 Sep 2019, 11:31

Depending on your goals --

The quality of the best motion blur reduction modes on the best monitors can be preferable to an average CRT, but it does take some heavy cherrypicking (model & blur reduction quality) in order to get something extremely good.

For example, properly changing expectations too. The best 100Hz and 120Hz strobing I've seen is usually with 240Hz panels, because refresh rates far lower than max are the ones that typically has least strobe crosstalk. So a 1080p 240Hz panel (1ms GtG ballpark, either TN or IPS, I've seen both) can provide much more stellar 120Hz strobing. On these, the strobe crosstalk on some of these can be made virtually unnoticeable (below human noticeable threshold >90% of the time), and you get similar zero-motion-blur experience to a CRT. Even CRTs can still phosphor-ghost (green ghosting; CRTs are also used for radar), so they're not 100% perfect either, given brighter phosphors tend to be the longest-decaying type. The rise might be nanoseconds but the decay can sometimes be milliseconds on the slower phosphors.

Nontheless, you won't get the good black levels of a good CRT. But lots of CRTs are worn and several have dim brightness that is darker than even a strobed LCD. And you can't beat the pixel geometry (perfect pixel grid, no pincushion, bow, astig, keystone, warping, etc) of an LCD.

It's simply just challenging to get good strobing, but:
(A) MORE hertzroom above your planned strobed Hz (e.g. 120Hz strobing on a 240Hz)
(B) FAST response (1ms), either TN or IPS
(C) Reasonably-well strobe tuned. Not all of them are optimally strobe tuned (proper strobe-otimized overdrive settings, etc) and preferably automated equivalent of large vertical total support (like ULMB or 240Hz DyAc) or manual large vertical total support (like BenQ). The large vertical totals accelerate scanout and create a long VBI to hide GtG between refresh cycles.

To improve strobe crosstalk on 144Hz, try 120Hz or 100Hz strobe with VRB. Also, I don't know how VRB responds to manually-created large vertical totals, but it's worth a try since most FreeSync-compatible 144Hz 1080p panels are scanrate-multisync and tends to respond well to large vertical totals.

Temper your expectations regardless of CRT or LCD strobe backlight.

Moral of the story:
(1) Used CRTs can be cheaper than cherrypicking a top-of-the-line strobe backlight LCD, if you're aiming for smaller screens/lower-rez
(2) It's easy to get a bad CRT with a worn picture, given age of many monitors.
(3) It's easy to get a bad strobe backlight LCD, given that many manufacturers just simply flash the backlight without proper tuning
(4) It's possible to get a strobe backlight LCDs that produces motion clarity preferable over many CRTs, depending on your goals.
(5) Nothing beats a fresh, newly manufactured CRT with good tuned electronics, for black levels and certain criteria.
(6) Nothing beats an LCD for other categories such as perfect geometry (for native resolution)
(7) It requires totally different expectations (i.e. for strobe backlight LCDs do not expect crosstalk-free CRT-clarity strobing at max Hz, you need hertzroom) to get the best of what you're aiming for. Your goals. And your open wallet.

Change variables and you may get by easily with a used 1024x768 75 Hz CRT. But change the variables and your only option can easily steer to strobe-backlight LCD. Not even the storied Sony FW900 CRT gives you good 1080p 120Hz, but you can get relatively crosstalk-free 1080p 120Hz with certain models of 240Hz monitors, both TN and IPS (VESA 1ms ballpark GtG10->90%).
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Re: ULMB vs CRT

Post by sdx » 01 Oct 2019, 14:26

You will be thoroughly disappointed with the CRT. Today's modern gaming LCDs outperform CRTs in almost every way. I had a Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 2070SB sitting in the closet which can do 1024x768@160hz, one day I hooked it up to compare and I immediately put it away again (now it's gone I gave it away).

Stick with LCD.

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Re: ULMB vs CRT

Post by konchy » 02 Oct 2019, 10:04

Thanks for your reply Chief,

I just received my HDMI - VGA adapter today. Will try to get a good CRT soon if I can find it. Been trying VRB for a few days, but getting a lot of eye strain. Because VRB only works at a locked brightness and it's too bright for me. Going back to gsync-vsync for the time being until hopefully I can find a decent CRT monitor.

sdx, thanks for your reply. I used to game a lot at 1024 x 768 ages ago. Hoping that I can find a CRT with better resolution with at least 75Hz.

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Re: ULMB vs CRT

Post by flood » 02 Oct 2019, 19:06

RealNC wrote:Usually, CRTs are around 1600x1200@120Hz.
that corresponds to a horizontal scan rate of above 144kHz, which is no crt monitor can achieve. (highest is around 140kHz in 2070sb + rebrands, 137kHz in sony gdm f520).
konchy wrote: Will the CRT give me less motion blur than my current LCD monitor during fast flicks in FPS games such as Rainbow Six Siege?
idk what you do in rainbow six siege, but if it's an fps game where you mostly stare at the crosshair to aim, motion blur isn't going to be very different between a CRT and an LCD at similar refresh rate.

low persistence only matters when your eyes are tracking something that is moving.

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Re: ULMB vs CRT

Post by RealNC » 03 Oct 2019, 11:11

flood wrote:
RealNC wrote:Usually, CRTs are around 1600x1200@120Hz.
that corresponds to a horizontal scan rate of above 144kHz, which is no crt monitor can achieve.
I meant as maximums, not as a supported mode.
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