Page 76 of 76

Re: Viewsonic XG270 with 'PureXP" MBR [pre-tuned by Blur Busters!]

Posted: 24 Jan 2023, 22:56
by GammaLyrae
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
05 May 2022, 15:02
SEA_mukilteo wrote:
05 May 2022, 12:32
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
19 Apr 2022, 23:24
SEA_mukilteo wrote:
18 Apr 2022, 16:23
Can I expect no ghosting 3D stereo image with quadro graphic card / stereo 3 pin extension connector/active IR shutter glass and this viewsonic XG270?
Personally I'd consider the ViewSonic XG2431 for even better zero-crosstalk results (using 120Hz with the VT2250 trick).

Make sure the 3D glasses are correct polarization (vertical polarization versus horizontal polarization). IPS is polarized 90 degrees differently from TN screens, so shutter glasses for TN screens won't necessarily work unless you rotate your monitor by 90 degrees to portrait.
I had chance to test ViewSonic XG2431 with active IR shutter glasses(XPAN 105-IR-X1 / for general 3D TV).
The test environment are like followings:
- Prepared side by side green/blue image @120Hz(sView)
- Quadro RTX 5000 with VESA stereo 3 pin extension connector
- Set PureXP as "Ultra" in ViewSonic XG2431

- No blur image on each left/right lens of IR shutter glass
- No polarized issue, it was same as TN screens

Do you know why no polarized issue on ViewSonic XG2431?
This is because XG2431 polarization direction is 90-degrees different from most TN screens. That makes it compatible with different shutter glasses, like repurposed DLP shutter glasses.

- Shutter glasses uses LCD shutters which don't work well with wrong-polarized light.
- DLP emits unpolarized light (compatible with all shutter glasses)
- TN emits polarized light (compatible only with certain shutter glasses)
- IPS emits polarized light 90 degrees different from TN (compatible with DIFFERENT shutter glasses)

So shutter glasses must be compatible with the LCD's polarization.

You can also rotate a screen between portrait/landscape to fix polarization compatibility issues, since TN and IPS are polarized differently. IPS polarization is apparently more compatible with DLP-glasses polarization, because LCD inside shutter glasses don't work well with wrong-polarized light.

You found one of the best kept secrets: Today XG2431 is one of the best tiny 24" 3DTV-compatibles ever released -- near perfect zero crosstalk with the 120Hz VT2250 trick in ToastyX -- then re-calibrated with ViewSonic Strobe Utility to hide the room-temperature-sensitive part of crosstalk (temperature of summer/winter can worsen 3D glasses crosstalk).

I found that XG2431 PureXP is compatible with most DLP-Link glasses, with a "DLP-Link emulator" that has a shutter phase adjustment. And then using 3rd party 3D players that uses sequential-frame.

Voila. Perfect 3D from XG2431 that is superior to most 3DTVs and even better than NVIDIA 3D Vision!

It's very hard to setup, but I've been thinking of creating an open-source adjustable Arduino DLP-Link emulator box. That can turn most strobed LCDs into 3DTVs. It requires adjustable shutter phase, to compensate for refresh-delay difference between LCD and DLP, but other than that, it works perfect to use DLP-Link glasses with many strobed LCDs.

I imagine it'd work great with VorpX (enables 3D in video games), to turn XG2431 into a 3D Vision clone, usable with any generic DLP-Link glasses with compatible polarization.

Actually, I'll post an open source prize pot for this.

Bounty prize offer: $200 USD paid to first forum member who can package a working open source VorpX + DLP-Link solution for ViewSonic XG270 or XG2431

- DLP-Link glasses (cheap at $10 each)
- DLP-Link emulator (simple arduino box, I recommend Teensy 4.0 since it supports 0.125 microsecond USB 8000Hz for accurate sync)
- ViewSonic XG2431 monitor
- Viewsonic Strobe Utility

This probably won't need any changes to VorpX, however, if any is required (to sync between the DLP-Link emulator arduino over a USB cable), that code also needs to be contributed as open source to the VorpX team as a possible VorpX plug-in.

Bonus: Adjustable shutter-open-length per eye, and adjustable shutter-open-phase (relative to VSYNC signalling over USB cable to DLP-Link emulator box from Windows D3DKMTGetScanline() to monitor VBlank events). That should make it compatible with almost all strobed monitors, assuming compatible polarization.
Saw this post linked to in another thread I was reading, and a project like this would also be compelling to use with the in-development "geo-11" software that replaces Nvidia 3dvision for DirectX11 games - it's designed from the ground up to be compatible with existing 3d vision fixes made by the community, while being able to output natively to a variety of formats - 3d vision (of course), SBS/TAB/Interlaced, even full resolution SBS for output to VR. Crucially, it remains a single frame stereo 3d solution, and (eventually) should work with AMD hardware (currently, some shaders do not compile correctly on AMD hardware, resulting in game crashes).

A project like the one you've put a bounty on, with potentially a little extra work, would result in a completely open source, hardware agnostic replacement for 3d vision that'd work on the latest GPUs (Nvidia or not), on any display of sufficiently fast response time / motion clarity.

Worth mentioning that geo-11 is a free open source alternative to 3d vision and doesn't require the use of VR hardware, and has the backing of the passionate 3d vision community that is still actively developing stereoscopic fixes for games new and old, for the most common rendering API in use (DirectX11). VorpX is still paid software that targets a different, primarily VR based audience.

Re: Viewsonic XG270 with 'PureXP" MBR [pre-tuned by Blur Busters!]

Posted: 25 Jan 2023, 00:48
by Chief Blur Buster
Also, a third party black frame insertion driver in a Windows Indirect Display Driver, would help turn all the upcoming new 240Hz OLEDs into a 3D Vision compatible display.

The black frames are necessary with OLED scanout-based pulsing, so that you've got a completely black frame while the shutter glasses is switching eyes, and then a fully open frame by the time next OLED scanout begins. So because of the non-global strobing of OLED, 240Hz OLED + BFI would be needed to generate excellent crosstalkess 120Hz 3D Vision reborn.

Technically this would work on any non-strobed 240Hz display too; because you can skip strobing support when you use software-based BFI. So any 240Hz generic display could turn into a 60/60 ("120Hz+BFI") frame sequential display.

And if you wanted shutter glasses autoconfigure -- then two computer connected photodiode sensors can be put at top/bottom edges (one each, at top and at bottom), to autorecognize global vs scanout pulsing, and autoconfigure shutter phase / shutter pulse width, to get crosstalkless 3D automatically on any suitable 120Hz+ strobed display or any 240Hz+ display (if a software BFI Windows display driver is developed that emulates a 120Hz display mapped with BFI onto a 240Hz display). Or use SpecialK's built in BFI feature, with some minor modifications.


Generic 3D Vision on virtually any "240Hz+" display, regardless of panel type and regardless of whether it can strobe or not.

Re: Viewsonic XG270 with 'PureXP" MBR [pre-tuned by Blur Busters!]

Posted: 13 Mar 2023, 10:51
by kt1
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
12 Jan 2023, 23:43
Without strobing, 240Hz OLED is ~1.5x clearer than 240Hz LCD due to OLED GtG being near zero.

With strobing, 240Hz LCD can still beat OLED.

Most people will increasingly opt for 240Hz non-strobed at OLED GtG pixel response speeds -- the combination is sufficiently motion nirvana for most people (i.e. people who use basic strobing rather than Custom PureXP or LightBoost 10% etc). Strobing fanatics will still thumb nose at OLED (for now).

ViewSonic is also releasing OLED too, so if you want to wait, there's that option too.

Now that being said, XG2431 supports Strobe Utility while XG270 does not. Just wanted to give you that heads up.
Greetings Blur Chief, ecstatic that our savior has returned. salvation is at hand.

What is the persistence (ms) of the xg2431 strobed at 120hz/240hz vs the new oled coming at 240hz (do these also strobe, bfi)?

Are there any hard metrics we should be aware of going forward to make decisions on oled.

How many years do you suppose OLED might overtake strobed LCDs for motion clarity. :mrgreen:

Re: Viewsonic XG270 with 'PureXP" MBR [pre-tuned by Blur Busters!]

Posted: 13 Mar 2023, 15:52
by Chief Blur Buster
Here are some simple rules of thumb:

Currently, the OLEDs dont strobe yet. So XG2431 strobed beats OLED by a large margin at the moment.

However, if you hate strobing, OLED beats any LCD of the same Hz

Also, remember, strobing does not necessarily always have less motion blur than non-strobed, because it is all about pixel visibility time:



To say, it's possible to have an unstrobed 480fps 480Hz display (2ms pixel visibility time) have less motion blur than a strobed 120Hz BFI display using 4ms pixel flashes.

Brute framerate-based motion blur reduction (helped by DLSS and other frame geneneration tech) is the future, since real life does not flicker, and reducing motion blur without BFI is more ergonomic. But requires 1000fps 1000Hz to hit 1ms MPRT on a sample and hold display without strobing. By 2027-ish, this will be very realistic, especially if Epic adds 10:1 reprojection tech to Unreal Engine Version 6.

GPUs such as RTX 4090 can already do 10:1 reprojection, and thus we already have technology to turn 100fps to 1000fps. Give it a few years.