Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
PYRUSWON
Posts: 7
Joined: 21 Jan 2020, 02:57

Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by PYRUSWON » 21 Jan 2020, 03:05

Hey everyone.

As a disclaimer it's 3 AM here and I'm exhausted, I've been reading almost constantly about cross-talk and motion blur things on this forum for the past few hours and I'm really burnt out, so I've decided to ask my own questions before I decide to keep or return this moniter (Zowie/BenQ XL 2546)

I like play lots of esports titles, and ontop of that I also enjoy playing other competitive games, but after buying this new moniter I realized that I don't really like 240hz, and was looking to return this moniter in favor of another decent 144hz one, that was, until I read a good bit into cross-talk among other things to remove motion blur and then I started to reconsider.

I want to essentially remove as much crosstalk as absolutely possible when playing a game at 144hz, as I'm used to 144 and like 144 hz lots, so my main question is; is it possible for me to setup a CRU/Vertical Tool or whatever at 144hz to effectively eliminate the crosstalk and motion blur that I'm seeing? to be frank I don't understand this well, and generally the thought of creating custom resolutions, going into secret menus among other things actually really worries me, even if it's rather irrational, so I want to input from the people who really know what they're doing directly. I couldn't find any information on whether it was possible to use a 240hz moniter at 144 and still setup a cru and eliminate crosstalk. Some of the results I've seen are amazing with that in general.

Ontop of that, I've searched around and haven't really found much of any good results, but, are there any good settings/configurations for this moniter? I really want it to run as well as possible, because I really don't want to have to return it and get a different one. The whole reason why I even upgraded to this one in the first place was because I purchased a RTX 2080 TI, and my previous zowie moniter wasn't compaitible with it, as it had no display ports.

All in all, I just generally need advice on this. Currently I have DyAc on, and intend to keep it on, as well as I would prefer to keep this moniter at 144hz if possible. I feel like my setup can reliably get 144hz on most games almost constantly, so that's what I would like.

Thanks ahead of time!


alapsu
Posts: 17
Joined: 18 Jul 2019, 17:33

Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by alapsu » 21 Jan 2020, 11:33

Not an expert by any means, but here's what I've had success with (same monitor):

Use ToastyX CRU to set a custom resolution based on this image:
https://www.blurbusters.com/wp-content/ ... 79a358.png

Then change the refresh rate from the pictured 182 Hz to 144 Hz and increase the vertical total from the pictured 1584.

I'm not sure how to "properly" determine what settings to try, but I've had success just using the guess-and-check method from there. If you're running at 144 Hz, I think you'll be able to raise your vertical total to 1850-1900 or so (not sure if or by how much panel variance factors in).

Once you've saved the resolution you want to try, run "restart64.exe" file (included with the CRU) to restart your display driver. Then the new resolution should be accessible under "advanced display settings." Then adjust the crosstalk zone using either the BlurBusters strobe utility or the "Area" setting in the monitor's OSD (the strobe utility is just a convenient means of adjusting this setting).

If you raise the vertical total too high, your screen will bug out a bit when you select your new resolution/refresh rate. If this happens, you can just wait 15 seconds for Windows to revert the change. It's failed on me once or twice and I just did a hard-reset to fix it.

You just have to play with your settings a bit. You can think of the the relationship between crosstalk and refresh rate as a positive (roughly) linear function. Highest refresh rate (240 Hz) = high crosstalk. Lowest refresh rate (100 Hz) = lowest crosstalk. (Note here: I've seen a number of posts on here claiming the xl2546 can strobe at a refresh rate as low as 75 Hz, but for the life of me I can't get it to work under 100. At this point I think the 75 Hz claim is just a mistake, but if anyone reading this can prove me wrong please do because I'd love to take advantage).

Fair warning, though - if you don't use V-Sync or Scanline sync to fix frame pacing issues, you might become annoyed by DyAc-exacerbated perception of stuttering. To get an idea of why, play around with the "frame pacing" option on this page:
https://testufo.com/framerates-versus

PYRUSWON
Posts: 7
Joined: 21 Jan 2020, 02:57

Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by PYRUSWON » 21 Jan 2020, 15:06

alapsu wrote:
21 Jan 2020, 11:33
Not an expert by any means, but here's what I've had success with (same monitor):

Use ToastyX CRU to set a custom resolution based on this image:
https://www.blurbusters.com/wp-content/ ... 79a358.png

Then change the refresh rate from the pictured 182 Hz to 144 Hz and increase the vertical total from the pictured 1584.

I'm not sure how to "properly" determine what settings to try, but I've had success just using the guess-and-check method from there. If you're running at 144 Hz, I think you'll be able to raise your vertical total to 1850-1900 or so (not sure if or by how much panel variance factors in).

Once you've saved the resolution you want to try, run "restart64.exe" file (included with the CRU) to restart your display driver. Then the new resolution should be accessible under "advanced display settings." Then adjust the crosstalk zone using either the BlurBusters strobe utility or the "Area" setting in the monitor's OSD (the strobe utility is just a convenient means of adjusting this setting).

If you raise the vertical total too high, your screen will bug out a bit when you select your new resolution/refresh rate. If this happens, you can just wait 15 seconds for Windows to revert the change. It's failed on me once or twice and I just did a hard-reset to fix it.

You just have to play with your settings a bit. You can think of the the relationship between crosstalk and refresh rate as a positive (roughly) linear function. Highest refresh rate (240 Hz) = high crosstalk. Lowest refresh rate (100 Hz) = lowest crosstalk. (Note here: I've seen a number of posts on here claiming the xl2546 can strobe at a refresh rate as low as 75 Hz, but for the life of me I can't get it to work under 100. At this point I think the 75 Hz claim is just a mistake, but if anyone reading this can prove me wrong please do because I'd love to take advantage).

Fair warning, though - if you don't use V-Sync or Scanline sync to fix frame pacing issues, you might become annoyed by DyAc-exacerbated perception of stuttering. To get an idea of why, play around with the "frame pacing" option on this page:
https://testufo.com/framerates-versus
Hey man, I seriously appreciate this detailed reply.

As I said before, I get really irrationally worred over these kinds of things so I want to ask a few questions if you don't mind.

First of all, do you mind sharing your settings on your moniter? As in the brightness, contrast, R/G/B, etc, mine looks a bit wonky right now.. lol, I'm not sure what's best.

Secondly, I've read a little bit before on the forums from the chief guy (he's a wizard with this stuff, kind of crazy how impressive his knowledge is) that you can somewhat "clock" moniters to run at the 240 frequency while the refreshrate is at 144?.. I would have to go specifically pick out the parts where I saw something like that. Does this really matter in my case?

Aside from that, is there any damage/issues that can arise from restarting your display driver? and what do you necessairly mean when you say that the screen will kind of bug out? To be totally honest, I'm trying my best to make my screen as absolutely motion blur free for League of Legends, as that's my favorite game, and I want an ultra smooth experience on there, meanwhile having primarily a 144 HZ experience on almost every other game I enjoy.

When it comes to Vsync, I run that on almost every game I play, as I despise screen-tearing.

Thanks ahead of time.

Edit: I figured out what I was talking about, and it was the Pixel clock/dotclock(?) rate. I did what the cross-talk post suggests and tried to figure out the maximum one for my moniter by setting it to it's highest resolution and then going from there, but I think it said the maximum was 600... is that normal? Surly I cannot use a 600 pixel/dogclock for this custom resolution right?

AddictFPS
Posts: 79
Joined: 15 Jan 2020, 14:13

Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by AddictFPS » 21 Jan 2020, 17:43

I think that no current LCD monitors can strobe 100Hz with Full Quality at this moment, no matter what settings you make, there are a technology limit, 100% GtG pixel shades transition time is unable to offer the speed that exigent gamers need.

I'm talking about gamers that we appreciate every detail at moving images, gamers that used and are accustomed since years to the high quality movement speed and focus of CRT proffessional monitors, and get angry even if only there are a bit of crosstalk.

For me quality 100Hz strobe is:

1) Without any sign of crosstalk
2) 1ms MPRT (10% refresh time) over stable color pixel (100% GtG time), not over a pixel still in GtG transition (blurring, bad colors, bad contrast, bad focus/sharpness).
3) Brightness range 20-400 whit 1ms MPRT, so whe need a very high native sample-and-hold bright strobe backlight.
4) No flicker, and allways single strobe pulses. So don't want strobe below 100Hz, except games locked a 60FPS that need 60Hz.
5) No overshot
6) High quality strobe backlight, full panel instant ON/hold 1ms/OFF/wait 9ms, very fast swap.

TN 240Hz

BenQ XL2540 (https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/ ... wie-xl2540)
BenQ marketing say: Response time 1ms GtG

With recommended OD High (AMA), the highest 100% GtG times ( 20.5 :!: / 15 / 12 / 10 ) and a heavy +40% overshot at 0-20% shade.

If want remove overshot, need to set OD Off, highest 100% GtG times ( 20 / 15 / 12 / 11 ), again the same bad performance.

XL2540 can strobe 100Hz ? Let's take out calculator:

240Hz Scanout speed time: 4.166 ms
Max. 100% GtG: 20,5 ms
Temp. margin: 1 ms (temperature changes affect response times, so need a bit of room for it to assure a decent temp range)
Strobe lenght MPRT: 1 ms
Sleep time: 1 ms (to avoid any rest of residual light after strobe Off)

Total process time: 27.66 ms
One second = 1000 ms / 27.66 ms = 36.14 FPS :!:
100FPS need this process completed at 10 ms, so need LCD tech with:

1) 240Hz and max. 100% GtG times 2.833 ms
2) 480Hz scanout (2.08 ms) with 100% GtG 4.916 ms
3) 1000Hz scanout (1ms) with 100% GtG 6 ms

Another problem is bright: SDR Sustained 100% Window: 459 cd/m²

This is what whe see at 100Hz without strobing, 10 ms 100% backlight On, but if MPRT is only 1ms, 459 / 10 = 45.9 cd/m2 :!:

Is needed much more bright backlight to show up to 400 cd/m2 with MPRT 1ms

IPS 240Hz

Surprise, Rtings show that IPS panels has much less (Max. 100% GtG times) that TN XL2540

I think Viewsonic Elite XG270 and Acer Nitro XV273X use the same panel, but Viewsonic is tweaked by BlurBusters Chief ;)

https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/ ... tro-xv273x

With recommended OD Normal, 0% overshot, and the highest 100% GtG time: 8.7 ms :!:

If IPS tech can evolve from 8.7 to under 6.0, can be used with Ultra-High 1000Hz frequency panel in order to do very good 100Hz strobing. Last high-end IPS like PG32UQX can show 1400cd/m2.

PYRUSWON
Posts: 7
Joined: 21 Jan 2020, 02:57

Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by PYRUSWON » 21 Jan 2020, 18:26

AddictFPS wrote:
21 Jan 2020, 17:43
I think that no current LCD monitors can strobe 100Hz with Full Quality at this moment, no matter what settings you make, there are a technology limit, 100% GtG pixel shades transition time is unable to offer the speed that exigent gamers need.

I'm talking about gamers that we appreciate every detail at moving images, gamers that used and are accustomed since years to the high quality movement speed and focus of CRT proffessional monitors, and get angry even if only there are a bit of crosstalk.

For me quality 100Hz strobe is:

1) Without any sign of crosstalk
2) 1ms MPRT (10% refresh time) over stable color pixel (100% GtG time), not over a pixel still in GtG transition (blurring, bad colors, bad contrast, bad focus/sharpness).
3) Brightness range 20-400 whit 1ms MPRT, so whe need a very high native sample-and-hold bright strobe backlight.
4) No flicker, and allways single strobe pulses. So don't want strobe below 100Hz, except games locked a 60FPS that need 60Hz.
5) No overshot
6) High quality strobe backlight, full panel instant ON/hold 1ms/OFF/wait 9ms, very fast swap.

TN 240Hz

BenQ XL2540 (https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/ ... wie-xl2540)
BenQ marketing say: Response time 1ms GtG

With recommended OD High (AMA), the highest 100% GtG times ( 20.5 :!: / 15 / 12 / 10 ) and a heavy +40% overshot at 0-20% shade.

If want remove overshot, need to set OD Off, highest 100% GtG times ( 20 / 15 / 12 / 11 ), again the same bad performance.

XL2540 can strobe 100Hz ? Let's take out calculator:

240Hz Scanout speed time: 4.166 ms
Max. 100% GtG: 20,5 ms
Temp. margin: 1 ms (temperature changes affect response times, so need a bit of room for it to assure a decent temp range)
Strobe lenght MPRT: 1 ms
Sleep time: 1 ms (to avoid any rest of residual light after strobe Off)

Total process time: 27.66 ms
One second = 1000 ms / 27.66 ms = 36.14 FPS :!:
100FPS need this process completed at 10 ms, so need LCD tech with:

1) 240Hz and max. 100% GtG times 2.833 ms
2) 480Hz scanout (2.08 ms) with 100% GtG 4.916 ms
3) 1000Hz scanout (1ms) with 100% GtG 6 ms

Another problem is bright: SDR Sustained 100% Window: 459 cd/m²

This is what whe see at 100Hz without strobing, 10 ms 100% backlight On, but if MPRT is only 1ms, 459 / 10 = 45.9 cd/m2 :!:

Is needed much more bright backlight to show up to 400 cd/m2 with MPRT 1ms

IPS 240Hz

Surprise, Rtings show that IPS panels has much less (Max. 100% GtG times) that TN XL2540

I think Viewsonic Elite XG270 and Acer Nitro XV273X use the same panel, but Viewsonic is tweaked by BlurBusters Chief ;)

https://www.rtings.com/monitor/reviews/ ... tro-xv273x

With recommended OD Normal, 0% overshot, and the highest 100% GtG time: 8.7 ms :!:

If IPS tech can evolve from 8.7 to under 6.0, can be used with Ultra-High 1000Hz frequency panel in order to do very good 100Hz strobing. Last high-end IPS like PG32UQX can show 1400cd/m2.
Hey, I appreciate the reply, but I don't really know what this means, and I am not sure if it answers my questions.

I'm not super educated on the stuff that goes on here at blurbusters..

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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 21 Jan 2020, 19:28

AddictFPS wrote:
21 Jan 2020, 17:43
I think that no current LCD monitors can strobe 100Hz with Full Quality at this moment, no matter what settings you make, there are a technology limit, 100% GtG pixel shades transition time is unable to offer the speed that exigent gamers need.
While a lot of what you say is true -- your post leaves out a few facts ;)

Let's consider how necessary/unnecessary GtG100% becomes.

GtG90% = creates 10% crosstalk, much like greylevel(255) versus greylevel(230)
GtG99% = creates 1% crosstalk, much like greylevel(255) versus greylevel(252)
GtG99.9% = creates 0.1% crosstalk, less than 1 shade apart in 8-bit spectrum (256 shades).
At one point, GtG completeness becomes below human detection.

Here's a chart:

Image

Fact:
-- Obviously, VESA GtG90% (see Pixel Response FAQ) is not enough, but most people are fine with GtG99%.
-- Right now ViewSonic XG270 screen center can go better than GtG99% screen centre for 100Hz for most colors. Top/bottom edges are slightly crosstalky but majority of screen is crosstalk free.
-- Personally, I don't mind gaming at 3% or less (tantamount to GtG97% hidden in the black period between strobe flash, and the black period can be several milliseconds long), while others are super picky at 1% or less (=GtG99%)
-- GtG99% can occur several milliseconds before GtG100%, making it easier to hide in the black phase of the strobe flash cycle
-- GtG99% is a comfortabe threshold for most people. During high detailed scenes, the ultrafaint crosstalk disappears below noise thresholds except for scenes with lots of solid colors.

Also, remember the disconnect of the scanout versus global strobe. The panel scans top-to-bottom (high speed videos of LCD scanout) versus the all-at-once global flash. High speed video of LCD scanout:

phpBB [video]


Now high speed video of an old strobe backlight, the famous LightBoost video:

phpBB [video]


But sometimes GtG is not complete at the bottom edge of the screen when GtG begins at the top edge of the screen.

Image
(From the famous old 2014 Strobe Backlikght Hacking FAQ)

That creates a crosstalk gradient where the top/bottom edges may be worst, with screen center clearest. Even 8.6ms GtG is 100% hidden by human eyes for a specific location of screen if a 100Hz refresh cycle is 90% dark (9ms) and 10% visible (1ms) for that specific location on the screen. 100Hz = 1/100sec = 10ms budget.

Who cares about GtG99% taking 6 milliseconds, if that 6 milliseconds is unseen by human eyes, by being put into the darkphase of the strobe backlight cycle? :D :D :D

There IS a catch, though. The chicken and egg problem is that not all pixels are at the same GtG phases at the same time, because not all pixels are refreshed simultaneously.

There IS a solution though. Our tuning service milks a few common-sense facts, and things like redirecting hertzroom to reducing low-Hz crosstalk. For example, 100Hz using full-velocity 240Hz refresh cycles -- creates a VBI that's (1/100sec - 1/240sec) long = 5.8 millisecond blanking interval between fast 1/240sec refresh cycle sweepouts. This is a humongous VBI big enough to drive a slow GtG truck easily to 99% completion for most color-pairs, with well-balanced overdrive, for most of screen surface, for most '1ms' panels.

</micdrop>

This is just general common sense stuff, that I've publicly written since Blur Busters originally launched as www.scanningbacklight.com in 2012 before it got renamed to Blur Busters. And so this is all information that I've written off and on. The Large Vertical Total trick is the VBI-embiggening trick, but it can be internally automated & put on steroids. (That's why VT tricks aren't really recommended for XG270, except if you want the Quick Frame Transport benefits to reduce latency).

<Shameless plug>
No wait, there's more. I'll keep going on under NDA. That's not the only thing that can be done. Other of our tuning techniques, we share under NDA. If you are a manufacturer reading this, contact squad@blurbusters.com to apply for Blur Busters Approved.
</Shameless plug>
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PYRUSWON
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Joined: 21 Jan 2020, 02:57

Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by PYRUSWON » 21 Jan 2020, 19:31

alapsu wrote:
21 Jan 2020, 11:33
Not an expert by any means, but here's what I've had success with (same monitor): ~~~
Hey, so, I went through with it, atleast, I think I did, and I set mine to around 1900 vertical, and it looks really amazing compared to before, like, barely any crosstalk what so ever, accross the whole monitor, except for a small bit on the bottom. My last moniter had a decent amount of ghosting/crosstalk on the tops and bottoms, but I got used to it and stopped noticing it. I'm not 100% sure if I did this whole thing right, but when using the blur buster utility tool I definitely noticed that it was far different and I could move it so that it was barely there at all, so at the very least I know for certain that something changed. If anyone has any more in depth instructions on using the custom resolution thing, then please let me know, but i'm fairly certain this worked.

I'm rather happy with this, now I just wonder if it was worth 500 dollars for a moniter that is essentially a slightly better version of my last one. Does anyone have any advice on this? I still have about 2 and a half weeks to return it if I like, but I'm not really utilizing 240hz, since I'm using the 144 setting, and I can't help but feel a bit weird about it all. I've seen some stuff about the ViewSonic blur-busters approved one, and if what the other post was saying is true, then it seems like it could potentially be even better than the results I've had on here, and I admit that I haven't done that much tweaking and everything, so it could potentially get better from here, but unfortunately I've been reading stuff almost constantly, and my knowledge is starting to run out from here, I am feeling really burnt by now.

If Chief happens to read this, or anybody who has the blur-busters approved viewsonic moniter, how is it at 144hz with the pure technology on and VSync? I'm very interested in it, to be honest, I would rather spend this amount of money on something that is designed from the ground up for this, instead of using this moniter that is both more expensive and potentially worse. Is the crosstalk/ghosting better or worse with this? Is it even noticable almost at all at 144 anywhere on the moniter? If there's none, then I'm basically sold.

Additonally, any settings/configurations for my current XL2546 are very welcomed, I'm all for trying my best to get rid of as much of it as possible.

Thanks for the help you've already given me and anymore you will give me :)

(Ps why does a mod have to approve everything I do on here? I'm not a troll, I promise lol)

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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 21 Jan 2020, 19:34

PYRUSWON wrote:
21 Jan 2020, 19:31
(Ps why does a mod have to approve everything I do on here? I'm not a troll, I promise lol)
It's a global feature until the 5th post. We've had spam epidemics "from fake-legit uses" (mainly from China) that later suddenly edited their posts to Viagara spam or Nigeria spam, or added a SEO link later. I suspect some of them are using artificial intelligence based algorithmns to copy and paste random paragraphs from different posts on different forums, to allow robots to masquerade as legitimate forum users. Unfortunately, this means we've stepped up the post-vetting game. It's a rule that applies blanket-wide till 5 posts for now. We've got legit-poster-sounding AI forum spambots attacking us that's not being filtered by the existing phpBB spamfilter plugins. Ugh.
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       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

PYRUSWON
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Joined: 21 Jan 2020, 02:57

Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by PYRUSWON » 21 Jan 2020, 19:40

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
21 Jan 2020, 19:34
PYRUSWON wrote:
21 Jan 2020, 19:31
(Ps why does a mod have to approve everything I do on here? I'm not a troll, I promise lol)
It's a global feature until the 5th post. We've had spam epidemics "from fake-legit uses" (mainly from China) that later suddenly edited their posts to Viagara spam or Nigeria spam, or added a SEO link later. I suspect some of them are using artificial intelligence based algorithmns to copy and paste random paragraphs from different posts on different forums, to allow robots to masquerade as legitimate forum users. Unfortunately, this means we've stepped up the post-vetting game. It's a rule that applies blanket-wide till 5 posts for now. We've got legit-poster-sounding AI forum spambots attacking us that's not being filtered by the existing phpBB spamfilter plugins. Ugh.
Ah I understand, that makes total sense. Honestly that's kind of what I expected, but I'm not experienced with forums like these so I don't particularly know how they work overall.

Also, I really appreciate you stopping by on my post. Did you happen to read my last reply to that useful dude earlier? Could I possibly have your opinion on this current moniter and the vertical things I've been doing along with this one vs the ViewSonic one that you guys officially supported? I've considered just returning this moniter and getting the one that you helped tweak if there's basically no crosstalk/ghosting at all at 144hz.

Thanks again.

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