Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 21 Jan 2020, 20:12

PYRUSWON wrote:
21 Jan 2020, 19:40
Also, I really appreciate you stopping by on my post. Did you happen to read my last reply to that useful dude earlier? Could I possibly have your opinion on this current moniter and the vertical things I've been doing along with this one vs the ViewSonic one that you guys officially supported? I've considered just returning this moniter and getting the one that you helped tweak if there's basically no crosstalk/ghosting at all at 144hz.
There is more crosstalk at 144Hz than 100Hz.

That said, 144Hz strobed XG270 has less crosstalk than all of the 144Hz TN strobed monitors at 144Hz. Enough hertzroom is available to compensate for most of the crosstalk, just not as faint as at 100Hz and 120Hz.

Max Hz strobing is always bad on almost all LCDs. For ease, NVIDIA locks your strobe range (preventing user access to bad strobe Hz), while others unlock your strobe range (letting users decide whether or not they want to use the bad strobe Hz). Pros/cons of the strobe range lock approach in quality/ease versus user choice.

Also, manual VT tweaks are generally unnecessary on the XG270 since its refresh cycles are already full velocity at lower Hz. Also, VT tweaks are far less effective on the XL2546 than on the 144Hz 1080p BenQs.

P.S. What I write publicly is primarily generic strobe knowledge I've often written since 2014.
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PYRUSWON
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Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by PYRUSWON » 21 Jan 2020, 20:38

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
21 Jan 2020, 20:12

P.S. What I write publicly is primarily generic strobe knowledge I've often written since 2014.
Alright, so, with all things considered, I'm trying to use a 144hz moniter exclusively, no more or less, as I'm confident my hardware can maintain around that much on every game that I want to play.

Judging by what you said, would the XG270 not require any Strobe utility tweaks or VT tweaks to be even better than my current xl2546? The 144hz version on that moniter is essentially the best that there is for 144hz in that case? Otherwise, are there any tweaks that I would need to do for the XG270?

I read a little bit on the other post that's essentially dedicated to that moniter, and I believe either you or someone else said that that moniter can sport 0.7ms on 144hz, that sounds insane!

Also, sorry about my rather stupid questions, I've been reading constantly, so I genuinely am not being lazy and trying to just get easy answers, I'm just trying to get absolute confirmation before I make any serious decisions.

So, TLDR, The XG270 is both significantly better at 144hz when it comes to having essentially no/unnoticeable crosstalk across the whole moniter than any other option that I could pretty much buy, as well as being slightly cheaper..? That sounds soo good :P

Lastly, assuming I do go with that option, I suppose I can just change resolutions so that my computer isn't using the new custom one that I just set right?

Thanks again.

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Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 21 Jan 2020, 20:43

In preserving manufacturer friendships/relationships I prefer to stick to talking generalities that are generally true (like 120Hz strobing on 240Hz is easier to get better quality and less crosstalk than 120Hz strobing at 144Hz), rather than direct comparisions between just two models in this particular context. Any manufacturer are potential applicants to Blur Busters Approved.

Also, Blur Busters being a kind of an inventor role -- Blur Busters let others do the wide-scale testing and comparing (using my free Blur Busters testing inventions) -- Whether be RTINGS or TFTCentral or PCMonitors or TomsHardware or others. It will take time before several finally test XG270 and compare.

However, as a general rule of thumb, I've seen better 144hz strobing on XG270 than 144Hz storbing on some TN 240Hz monitors -- but it varies across the board. Also the improved IPS color also creates a slight increased tolerance for GtG incompleteness. For example, a sufficiently-faint (approx) GtG97% on IPS can be more tolerable than (approx) GtG98% on TN, if you're witnessing much better colors that makes you see and play better, and other attributes. Everyone has different preferences and weightings on what GtG cutoff they will tolerate.

Also, please note, the firmware for brighter strobe modes (PureXP+ OFF/Light/Normal/Extreme/Ultra settings) is not yet released. I'm awaiting that easy USB firmware upgrade.
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PYRUSWON
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Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by PYRUSWON » 21 Jan 2020, 21:58

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
21 Jan 2020, 20:43
In preserving manufacturer friendships/relationships I prefer to stick to talking generalities that are generally true (like 120Hz strobing on 240Hz is easier to get better quality and less crosstalk than 120Hz strobing at 144Hz)
I understand, that's very professional, I can appreciate that.

I suppose I'll try to think it over as much as I can. On one hand I want to buy the moniter since it appears to be the best possible, and on the other hand I'm not sure at the same time.

Thanks for your input, anything else you want to tell me/might influence my decision is welcome.

alapsu
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Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by alapsu » 22 Jan 2020, 11:57

PYRUSWON wrote:
21 Jan 2020, 21:58
Thanks for your input, anything else you want to tell me/might influence my decision is welcome.
Hey, though this was directed at chief I'll give my input on what I think I competently can.
PYRUSWON wrote: First of all, do you mind sharing your settings on your moniter? As in the brightness, contrast, R/G/B, etc, mine looks a bit wonky right now.. lol, I'm not sure what's best.
I change mine depending on what I'm using it for. But for general use (i.e., anything that isn't csgo), I just set the picture/color mode to Standard, AMA to high, DyAc to premium, black equalizer to 0, color vibrance to 10. I really haven't been able to improve the image quality much compared the Standard preset. For CSGO, it's totally personal preference. Here is a list of settings pro players use(d): https://www.prosettings.com/best-benq-monitor-settings/ (no idea how current this is)
PYRUSWON wrote: Hey, so, I went through with it, atleast, I think I did, and I set mine to around 1900 vertical, and it looks really amazing compared to before, like, barely any crosstalk what so ever, accross the whole monitor, except for a small bit on the bottom. My last moniter had a decent amount of ghosting/crosstalk on the tops and bottoms, but I got used to it and stopped noticing it. I'm not 100% sure if I did this whole thing right, but when using the blur buster utility tool I definitely noticed that it was far different and I could move it so that it was barely there at all, so at the very least I know for certain that something changed. If anyone has any more in depth instructions on using the custom resolution thing, then please let me know, but i'm fairly certain this worked.
To get the best feel for what you're looking for, you may want to compare how motion looks at the extremes of the crosstalk/refresh rate spectrum. You can create a custom resolution using the same process as before except set the refresh rate to 100 Hz and the VT to about 2300. Then calibrate using the strobe utility.

Then, switch to 240 Hz and try to calibrate using the strobe utility. You'll notice a massive difference in the size of the crosstalk zone and its severity.
PYRUSWON wrote: I'm rather happy with this, now I just wonder if it was worth 500 dollars for a moniter that is essentially a slightly better version of my last one. Does anyone have any advice on this? I still have about 2 and a half weeks to return it if I like, but I'm not really utilizing 240hz, since I'm using the 144 setting, and I can't help but feel a bit weird about it all.
If today I were to buy a monitor for MBR, it would certainly be the XG270. I bought my XL2546 before good IPS alternatives (like the ViewSonic) were available. I would pick the XG270 if its price were equal to the XL2546, but because it's cheaper (in the US), your choice is actually between the XL2546 or the XG270 plus $80. Easy choice, I think.
PYRUSWON wrote: Could I possibly have your opinion on this current moniter and the vertical things I've been doing along with this one vs the ViewSonic one that you guys officially supported?
My interpretation of this:
Chief Blur Buster wrote: Also, manual VT tweaks are generally unnecessary on the XG270 since its refresh cycles are already full velocity at lower Hz.
is that the ViewSonic monitor effectively does automatically what you've done manually on the Zowie monitor.

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Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 22 Jan 2020, 20:15

<Technical>
From Simple Bandwidth Math 101 -- if you're using Vertical Total of 1125 (VT1125) for 1080p 240Hz then to maintain horizontal scanrate, new VT becomes (originalVT * originalHz / newHz) = 1125 * 240 / 100 = VT2700.

But not all 240 Hz monitors will successfully accept a VT2700 manually.

*Did you know? 1125 is the standard ATSC HDTV vertical resolution for a bog-standard 1080i 60Hz or 1080p 60Hz signal (1080 active, 45 blanking interval/overscan). This number was originally used for the first 1980s analog HD experiments -- Japan MUSE HD -- and was recycled into the FFC ATSC HDTV standards -- and then recycled into 1080p for most of today's 1080p 60Hz displays today.
</Technical>
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Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by Falkentyne » 23 Jan 2020, 00:44

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
21 Jan 2020, 19:34
PYRUSWON wrote:
21 Jan 2020, 19:31
(Ps why does a mod have to approve everything I do on here? I'm not a troll, I promise lol)
It's a global feature until the 5th post. We've had spam epidemics "from fake-legit uses" (mainly from China) that later suddenly edited their posts to Viagara spam or Nigeria spam, or added a SEO link later. I suspect some of them are using artificial intelligence based algorithmns to copy and paste random paragraphs from different posts on different forums, to allow robots to masquerade as legitimate forum users. Unfortunately, this means we've stepped up the post-vetting game. It's a rule that applies blanket-wide till 5 posts for now. We've got legit-poster-sounding AI forum spambots attacking us that's not being filtered by the existing phpBB spamfilter plugins. Ugh.
Oh I remember those. Yikes. Still gives me the shivers in my crosstalk :(

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Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by alapsu » 23 Jan 2020, 10:32

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
22 Jan 2020, 20:15
<Technical>
From Simple Bandwidth Math 101 -- if you're using Vertical Total of 1125 (VT1125) for 1080p 240Hz then to maintain horizontal scanrate, new VT becomes (originalVT * originalHz / newHz) = 1125 * 240 / 100 = VT2700.

But not all 240 Hz monitors will successfully accept a VT2700 manually.

*Did you know? 1125 is the standard ATSC HDTV vertical resolution for a bog-standard 1080i 60Hz or 1080p 60Hz signal (1080 active, 45 blanking interval/overscan). This number was originally used for the first 1980s analog HD experiments -- Japan MUSE HD -- and was recycled into the FFC ATSC HDTV standards -- and then recycled into 1080p for most of today's 1080p 60Hz displays today.
</Technical>
Hey, I have a pretty poor understanding of what you're talking about (ex: I don't know what it means to "maintain horizontal scanrate" or why that formula is useful; I don't really understand why changing the size of the blanking interval/overscan affects the amount of crosstalk we perceive). If I want to learn more about this, where would you suggest I start?

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Re: Zowie XL2546 crosstalk questions/concerns & help needed.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 23 Jan 2020, 14:11

alapsu wrote:
23 Jan 2020, 10:32
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
22 Jan 2020, 20:15
<Technical>
From Simple Bandwidth Math 101 -- if you're using Vertical Total of 1125 (VT1125) for 1080p 240Hz then to maintain horizontal scanrate, new VT becomes (originalVT * originalHz / newHz) = 1125 * 240 / 100 = VT2700.

But not all 240 Hz monitors will successfully accept a VT2700 manually.

*Did you know? 1125 is the standard ATSC HDTV vertical resolution for a bog-standard 1080i 60Hz or 1080p 60Hz signal (1080 active, 45 blanking interval/overscan). This number was originally used for the first 1980s analog HD experiments -- Japan MUSE HD -- and was recycled into the FFC ATSC HDTV standards -- and then recycled into 1080p for most of today's 1080p 60Hz displays today.
</Technical>
Hey, I have a pretty poor understanding of what you're talking about (ex: I don't know what it means to "maintain horizontal scanrate" or why that formula is useful; I don't really understand why changing the size of the blanking interval/overscan affects the amount of crosstalk we perceive). If I want to learn more about this, where would you suggest I start?
The information is scattered throughout many different locations.
But first, understand what video signal timings are first.
Blur Busters Custom Resolution (CRU) Glossary 101
Next, understand how an LCD refreshes
High Speed Videos of LCD Refreshing
Next, understand how a strobe backlight tries to time flashing (between scanouts)
High Speed Videos of Strobe Backlight
Next, the page is old (2014) but understand some strobe backlight science:
Electronics Hacking: Create Strobe Backlight

Finally, if you understand the above, you will understand this explanation: A higher scan rate (more pixels rows refreshed per second) means a faster top-to-bottom sweep in those high speed videos -- which means more pause between refresh cycles -- which means more time for LCD GtG to finish at bottom edge of screen before LCD GtG begins for new refresh cycle at top edge of screen. That's the nutshell of why large VT's (large VBI's) helps in reducing strobe crosstalk of motion blur reduction modes.
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