LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

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jorimt
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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by jorimt » 20 Oct 2021, 14:13

NeonPizza wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 13:03
I know the Sony's motion will be equally as bad as the LG, but at least it's Game mode will a lot better than the crap LG is whipping out. There's nothing else on the Market that will be able to top it, so.
I own a CX myself, but off-hand, I thought for sure the C1 had one of the lowest display latencies for an OLED in game mode though? I'd have to recheck the reviews to confirm about the Sony.
NeonPizza wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 13:09
Also, regardless of the Q90A QLED being sample & Hold like the LG C1 OLED, due to the Q90A's slower motion response time, wouldn't there still be more motion blur/smearing?
Yes, because you'll then have GtG and MPRT blur. OLED is the best sample and hold motion clarity you're going to get in the TV market right now.
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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by NeonPizza » 20 Oct 2021, 14:36

jorimt wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 14:13
NeonPizza wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 13:03
I know the Sony's motion will be equally as bad as the LG, but at least it's Game mode will a lot better than the crap LG is whipping out. There's nothing else on the Market that will be able to top it, so.
I own a CX myself, but off-hand, I thought for sure the C1 had one of the lowest display latencies for an OLED in game mode though? I'd have to recheck the reviews to confirm about the Sony.
NeonPizza wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 13:09
Also, regardless of the Q90A QLED being sample & Hold like the LG C1 OLED, due to the Q90A's slower motion response time, wouldn't there still be more motion blur/smearing?
Yes, because you'll then have GtG and MPRT blur. OLED is the best sample and hold motion clarity you're going to get in the TV market right now.
Ahh, thought so about the Q90A's crappier motion. It was quite obvious during comparison videos between it and the C1 on YouTube that i've seen. :P So much for QLED(Neo QLED/Mini LED) base motion which will be even more terrible for movies etc, plus i've heard that game mode has lighter black levels and motion interpolation is busted...At least with De-Judder. De-Blur, unless i'm mistaken can still be used and hit 20ms of latency.

I'm down to either the A80J OLED or my Panasonic S60 plasma. A80J's base motion on paper is just as bad the LG C1's, but at least it's game mode is sharper and much brighter(Aside from being brighter in SDR, you also get access to the peak brightness setting, which is greyed out with the C1).

Nobody told me that C1's Boost mode and VRR in game mode would raise near black gamma. you can use the stabilizer settings, but it's never perfect. So instead of thinking I'd get 10ms of lag, now I'm back to 13ms which is still fine. But because game mode looks lousy on the C1 i'm currently using Bright ISF Expert mode....and that's about 89ms of lag. LOL i'm screwed. I could probably snag $3000 for my 65" C1 and put it towards the A80J if my S60 doesn't float my boat. At least with the S60 plasma, i'll be getting far better motion resolution with a LOT less blur, but it's dim, Whites are grey, blacks are weaker and has about 35ms of latency which isn't ideal and i dont think there's any way to disable it's ABL either, if it wasn't already dim enough.

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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 20 Oct 2021, 15:59

jorimt wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 14:13
Yes, because you'll then have GtG and MPRT blur. OLED is the best sample and hold motion clarity you're going to get in the TV market right now.
Yep. The refresh rate definitely dictates the sample and hold, and OLED is the fastest-GtG sample and hold technology at these big screens, but only if LCD and OLED refresh rates are equal.

Now, this will be dethroned by the 4K 240Hz panel sampling by AUO. Even with OLED's faster pixel response time, 4K 240Hz LCD will have less sample-and-hold motion blur at 240fps 240Hz. Now, a double-Hz LCD has less motion blur than a half-Hz OLED, since the sheer doubled Hz usually outweighs the marginally slower pixel response (until you're in ~360-to-480Hz-ish territory)

It does requires strobing (like a plasma or CRT) for some LCDs to become far better than OLEDs in motion resolution.

But same Hz-for-Hz in sample and hold mode, OLEDs blow away LCDs, definitely. Exactly what you said. That's never questioned.

(Just want to point out some nuances that commonly confuse many people)
NeonPizza wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 14:36
But because game mode looks lousy on the C1 i'm currently using Bright ISF Expert mode....and that's about 89ms of lag. LOL i'm screwed.
I used to self-calibrate a NEC XG135 CRT projector to ISF specifications. It had 0ms signal-to-scanout latency, like any analog CRT! (I used to work in the home theater industry, and worked with video processors including RUNCO, Key Digital, etc.) I also was the former moderator of the AVSCIENCE Home Theater Computers Forums, from 1998-ish to 2001-ish.

If you like OLED BFI (impulse driven mode), then you could attempt to "downgrade" from C1 to CX OLED to get half motion blur during BFI mode (75% blur reduction relative to 60Hz). That specific model has motion very roughly competitive to plasma when interpolation is disabled and BFI is enabled in its purest mode. It does add a little latency but not nearly as much as 89ms. But unfortunately the mode is fairly dim unlike overvoltage-boosted strobe backlight modes found in certain LCD displays.

Another left-field big screen "CRT clarity" experience -- is to watch an IMAX-sized movie in BigScreen on a Quest 2 or a different high-resolution headset. It looked far better than plasma and I could scale the virtual image to about 200 inches, while I was able to look down to stare at a virtual sofa or virtual movie theater seat with cupholder, and look around the 3D rendered room the virtual 200 inch screen is in. The way 3D is done on Valve Index and Quest 2 is 100x more comfortable than Real3D or Disney3D cinema glasses, because it more 1:1 maps to human vision 3D in perfect 1:1 sync for certain VR apps. That said, the effective resolution for movie-watching or TV-watching on a big virtual screen is only about 1080p, despite Quest 2 being near-4K due to the FOV it covers and the 3D rendered room surrounding the screen you're staring at. Of all the video apps, I would avoid the Netflix app (480p) and use other apps though or simply stream your PC screen to the big virtualized VR screen, and switch refresh rate to 72Hz (for 24fps movies) and switch refresh rate to either 60Hz or 120Hz (for 60fps video) via SideQuest setting.

Now, many don't want to do that though, but it's put there for motion-resolution-videophiles like me...

Displays are inherently imperfect compromises for quite a while.
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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by jorimt » 20 Oct 2021, 19:00

NeonPizza wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 14:36
Nobody told me that C1's Boost mode and VRR in game mode would raise near black gamma. you can use the stabilizer settings, but it's never perfect.
OLED VRR gamma shift is tied directly to frametime; The more jittery it is, the more flicker there is.

Basically, each Hz would need different gamma tuning for this to be avoided, which would effectively require a LUT (look up table) of Hz 1 through 120 during VRR operation. As far as I'm aware, no OLED TV can do this...yet, and it would have to be introduced at the hardware-level to be fully effective.

And VRR-capable LCD TV's, few that there are, are usually even worse in this respect (for different reasons), so pick your poison, sadly.

That said, if you can maintain a locked framerate and relatively stable frametimes in the given game when the OLED is in VRR mode, it's usable (that's how I do it, which also avoids GPU-limited situations as a welcome side effect of preventing max GPU usage), but no, it's not ideal (VRR stands for variable refresh rate, after all).
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 15:59
jorimt wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 14:13
Yes, because you'll then have GtG and MPRT blur. OLED is the best sample and hold motion clarity you're going to get in the TV market right now.
Yep. The refresh rate definitely dictates the sample and hold, and OLED is the fastest-GtG sample and hold technology at these big screens, but only if LCD and OLED refresh rates are equal.

Now, this will be dethroned by the 4K 240Hz panel sampling by AUO. Even with OLED's faster pixel response time, 4K 240Hz LCD will have less sample-and-hold motion blur at 240fps 240Hz. Now, a double-Hz LCD has less motion blur than a half-Hz OLED, since the sheer doubled Hz usually outweighs the marginally slower pixel response (until you're in ~360-to-480Hz-ish territory)

It does requires strobing (like a plasma or CRT) for some LCDs to become far better than OLEDs in motion resolution.

But same Hz-for-Hz in sample and hold mode, OLEDs blow away LCDs, definitely. Exactly what you said. That's never questioned.

(Just want to point out some nuances that commonly confuse many people)
Correct. Since the majority of mainstream TVs max out at 120Hz currently, from a sample and hold + pixel response time perspective, a current-gen 120Hz OLED will virtually always win against a current-gen 120Hz LCD TV where non-strobed motion clarity is concerned.

Now, if there were a 240Hz LCD TV, MPRT could indeed be superior to a 120Hz OLED in the right conditions, as you mentioned with the AUO.
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 15:59
NeonPizza wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 14:36
But because game mode looks lousy on the C1 i'm currently using Bright ISF Expert mode....and that's about 89ms of lag. LOL i'm screwed.
If you like OLED BFI (impulse driven mode), then you could attempt to "downgrade" from C1 to CX OLED to get half motion blur during BFI mode (75% blur reduction relative to 60Hz). That specific model has motion very roughly competitive to plasma when interpolation is disabled and BFI is enabled in its purest mode. It does add a little latency but not nearly as much as 89ms. But unfortunately the mode is fairly dim unlike overvoltage-boosted strobe backlight modes found in certain LCD displays.
Right, "High" BFI on the CX can be great, especially for certain retro-scrolling titles. Super clear. But yes, brightness suffers. I, however, calibrated all of my displays to 100 nits (for SDR), so it's not a deal breaker for me, personally.
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 15:59
Displays are inherently imperfect compromises for quite a while.
You can say that 1000 times over; talk about multi-layered Venn diagrams where current-gen display trade-offs are concerned :lol:
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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 22 Oct 2021, 09:27

Good reply, jorim! All hit the nail.
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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by jorimt » 22 Oct 2021, 10:13

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
22 Oct 2021, 09:27
:)
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by NeonPizza » 29 Oct 2021, 21:45

jorimt wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 19:00
NeonPizza wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 14:36
Nobody told me that C1's Boost mode and VRR in game mode would raise near black gamma. you can use the stabilizer settings, but it's never perfect.
OLED VRR gamma shift is tied directly to frametime; The more jittery it is, the more flicker there is.

Basically, each Hz would need different gamma tuning for this to be avoided, which would effectively require a LUT (look up table) of Hz 1 through 120 during VRR operation. As far as I'm aware, no OLED TV can do this...yet, and it would have to be introduced at the hardware-level to be fully effective.

And VRR-capable LCD TV's, few that there are, are usually even worse in this respect (for different reasons), so pick your poison, sadly.

That said, if you can maintain a locked framerate and relatively stable frametimes in the given game when the OLED is in VRR mode, it's usable (that's how I do it, which also avoids GPU-limited situations as a welcome side effect of preventing max GPU usage), but no, it's not ideal (VRR stands for variable refresh rate, after all).
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 15:59
jorimt wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 14:13
Yes, because you'll then have GtG and MPRT blur. OLED is the best sample and hold motion clarity you're going to get in the TV market right now.
Yep. The refresh rate definitely dictates the sample and hold, and OLED is the fastest-GtG sample and hold technology at these big screens, but only if LCD and OLED refresh rates are equal.

Now, this will be dethroned by the 4K 240Hz panel sampling by AUO. Even with OLED's faster pixel response time, 4K 240Hz LCD will have less sample-and-hold motion blur at 240fps 240Hz. Now, a double-Hz LCD has less motion blur than a half-Hz OLED, since the sheer doubled Hz usually outweighs the marginally slower pixel response (until you're in ~360-to-480Hz-ish territory)

It does requires strobing (like a plasma or CRT) for some LCDs to become far better than OLEDs in motion resolution.

But same Hz-for-Hz in sample and hold mode, OLEDs blow away LCDs, definitely. Exactly what you said. That's never questioned.

(Just want to point out some nuances that commonly confuse many people)
Correct. Since the majority of mainstream TVs max out at 120Hz currently, from a sample and hold + pixel response time perspective, a current-gen 120Hz OLED will virtually always win against a current-gen 120Hz LCD TV where non-strobed motion clarity is concerned.

Now, if there were a 240Hz LCD TV, MPRT could indeed be superior to a 120Hz OLED in the right conditions, as you mentioned with the AUO.
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 15:59
NeonPizza wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 14:36
But because game mode looks lousy on the C1 i'm currently using Bright ISF Expert mode....and that's about 89ms of lag. LOL i'm screwed.
If you like OLED BFI (impulse driven mode), then you could attempt to "downgrade" from C1 to CX OLED to get half motion blur during BFI mode (75% blur reduction relative to 60Hz). That specific model has motion very roughly competitive to plasma when interpolation is disabled and BFI is enabled in its purest mode. It does add a little latency but not nearly as much as 89ms. But unfortunately the mode is fairly dim unlike overvoltage-boosted strobe backlight modes found in certain LCD displays.
Right, "High" BFI on the CX can be great, especially for certain retro-scrolling titles. Super clear. But yes, brightness suffers. I, however, calibrated all of my displays to 100 nits (for SDR), so it's not a deal breaker for me, personally.
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
20 Oct 2021, 15:59
Displays are inherently imperfect compromises for quite a while.
You can say that 1000 times over; talk about multi-layered Venn diagrams where current-gen display trade-offs are concerned :lol:
If i were a 100 nits SDR guy, and could some how get over the flicker when using BFI HIGH than i would be on board for movies & games running at 60fps, even IF there is more black crush from the BFI itself which i'm assuming can be corrected ala' calibration. Either way, doesn't matter because i'm aiming for over 200nits, so BFI high is out of the question. Where as, BFI Low, Medium & auto are 120hz based and work terribly for lower frame rate content. You get motion duplication, unless the game is running at 120fps.

Somebody had mentioned in the AVS forums that the Phillips +936 OLED which is exclusive to the UK unless i'm mistaken doesn't suffer from any brightness loss or noticeable flicker with it's BFI...Sounds too good to be true. it has at least 21ms of lag outside of BFI so you would think it would almost double when actually using it. Either way, its out of the question anyways since they're not going to be available in Canada.

For gaming, i wish I could force everything in 120fps...that alone would reduce quite a bit of blur, and then you use MotionPlus 'medium' to further decrease motion blur and increase motion resolution which ends up looking very close to CRT. It looks FANtastic....Night and day compared to the base motion and spanks BFI HIGH. But, medium has too much of a brightness penalty, so aiming for MP LOW is the sweet spot even if motion doesn't look quite as good as medium.

Problem is, I dont have a PC gaming rig, i have the Switch & PS4 Pro(plan on getting a PS5). Everything is limited to 60fps, and only a small handful of games are in 120fps on PS5 like DOOM Eternal & Monster Boy in the cursed Kingdom. Vhat' to do. I'm Screwed. I've given up on 60fps on OLED.

If there is no work around or anything else available on the market that's around 65" in size that can get motion look great with over 200 nits and no flicker, than I'm thinking about selling my LG C1 and sticking with my Panasonic 60" S60 Plasma and also getting a 32" Sony Wega Trinitron CRT SDTV. :P

I cannot whatsoever tolerate the base motion on the C1. The blur is just terrible and actually makes me feel nauseous. Can't do it-, I tried. OLED sample and Motion blur just doesn't cut it for me whatsoever unless the game is running in 120fps + 120hz MotionPro 'medium' or maybe even low which still retains a bright image or again if BFI High didn't suffer from any brightness loss or flicker.
Last edited by NeonPizza on 29 Oct 2021, 22:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by jorimt » 29 Oct 2021, 22:29

NeonPizza wrote:
29 Oct 2021, 21:45
If there is no work around or anything else available on the market that's around 65" in size that can get motion look great with over 200 nits and no flicker, than I'm thinking about selling my LG C1 and sticking with my Panasonic 60" S60 Plasma and also getting a 32" Sony Wega Trinitron CRT SDTV. :P
For perspective, the peak brightness of an S60 is under 100 nits, and it has around 30ms of input lag:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/panasonic/s60

As for the Trinitron, I'm pretty sure it doesn't reach much more than 100 nits peak brightness either. Most CRTs don't.
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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by NeonPizza » 29 Oct 2021, 22:54

jorimt wrote:
29 Oct 2021, 22:29
NeonPizza wrote:
29 Oct 2021, 21:45
If there is no work around or anything else available on the market that's around 65" in size that can get motion look great with over 200 nits and no flicker, than I'm thinking about selling my LG C1 and sticking with my Panasonic 60" S60 Plasma and also getting a 32" Sony Wega Trinitron CRT SDTV. :P
For perspective, the peak brightness of an S60 is under 100 nits, and it has around 30ms of input lag:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/panasonic/s60

As for the Trinitron, I'm pretty sure it doesn't reach much more than 100 nits peak brightness either. Most CRTs don't.
CNET said the S60 at it's brightest is 58FL(just over 198nits), before ABL kicks in and drops it down to 40nits. I find the 198 nits hard to believe....maybe they're talking about Vivid Mode? Input lag is hitting 34.4ms which obviously isn't ideal. Maybe the S60 also appears brighter than the C1's BFI High setting because there's no severe black crush going on with the plasma. As for my two older early 2000's-something Sony wega trinitrons. They were pretty bright, quite a bit brighter than my S60. lol When i went from my older 32" Sony wega Tinitron to the S60, the S60 was a total downgrade in the motion & brightness department.

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Re: LG OLED CX 120Hz BFI

Post by NeonPizza » 30 Oct 2021, 00:17

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
22 Oct 2021, 09:27
Good reply, jorim! All hit the nail.
Wow, thanks for the wealth of info. I'm a little late to respond, but much appreciated! ;)
I actually had the LG C9 BTW, and BFI Maxed was a disappointment(unless there's a service menu hack that can unlock it's full potential), there's still too much blur present with it and brightness loss with it enabled. C1 seems to do a much better job and seems comparable to mid-tier plasma motion(like the panasonic S60) when set to HIGH but with nearly double the amount of judder with low frame rate content like movies, but i can't tolerate the massive drop in brightness, Flicker(depending) on whites and extra shadow detail crushing which i'm guessing CAN be corrected with a proper calibration? $400-500 later that is. :P The C1's BFI High setting doesn't hold a candle compared to using De-Blur '10' + MotionPro Medium outside of Game mode when gaming, again on the C1. Not recommended as latency skyrockets and brightness takes a nose dive, but the end results for motion resolution and blur are pretty damn amazing. At this point, i'd be 100 percent content that, if brightness didn't take a hit or latency obviously.

Is it possible somehow to force any game into 120fps without latency increasing? that would solve the problem, since that in itself reduced quite a bit of blur. Then combining that with MotionPro 'low'(low barely loses any brightness compared to medium, although medium has the clear edge in motion performance) Seems like the Sweet Spot.

Also, how does the A80J's BFI/Clearness setting when maxed compare to the C1's? At least Sony allows you to use the peak brightness setting in game mode unlike LG to compensate for the loss of nits. BTW, i currently don't have a PC gaming rig, it's just Switch & PS4 Pro(getting a PS5 at some point) so i'm limited to 60fps, with the scarce 120fps compatible PS5 game.

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