ELMB-Sync experiences?

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
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Avean
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Joined: 13 Feb 2020, 07:15

ELMB-Sync experiences?

Post by Avean » 13 Feb 2020, 07:50

So hard finding any actual review on this technology. Is the backlight strobing effect very visible when gaming? And since ELMB-Sync is with the G-sync "compatible" or freesync, if your framerate drops below your refreshrate youre going to experience corona effect due to lack of variable overdrive support right? After reading tons of articles on this it seems there is no perfect monitor, a perfect monitor would be a G-Sync moduled monitor that also worked somehow with ELMB. Framerate hitting your monitor refreshrate, ELMB, going below then full G-Sync with variable overdrive in effect.

ThighHighGap
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Joined: 31 Jan 2020, 22:42

Re: ELMB-Sync experiences?

Post by ThighHighGap » 13 Feb 2020, 10:32

im not too technical with all the proper terms but i have owned Asus TUF Gaming VG27BQ. With ELMBsync turned on it was very blurry it was almost like it wasnt even turned on. text was definitely not readable and playing CODMW you could see the ghosting. There was noticeable flickering when your fps would fluctuate but that didnt bother me too much. oh and elmbsync at 60hz was garbage it looked clearer with turned off. This tech imo isnt ready yet needs way more work.

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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: ELMB-Sync experiences?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 13 Feb 2020, 18:50

I hear ELMB-SYNC is far better on the 280Hz 1ms IPS than the 144Hz VAs. Based on what I've seen with TUF VG32V and the later refinements to ELMB-SYNC seems better with way more refresh headroom. Strobed VRR is very, very, very difficult to do well (motion-vs-flicker tradeoffs had to be chosen -- you have to automatically deviate strobing away from refresh rate with some flicker-eliminating algorithms).

You don't want to strobe near max Hz. With VRR strobing, I highly recommend (A) minimum frame rate above 75Hz, and (B) maximum framerate at least 20% below max Hz.

So for strobed VRR
-- Get the biggest refresh rate range you can get (280Hz...)
-- Stick to games with min-framerate usually above 75fps
-- Have a healthy safety margin below max Hz. Refresh rate headroom is good for strobing.
-- Use a frame rate cap (RTSS ideally, it framepaces strobed VRR better) to cap framerate generously below max Hz

Although I have not yet range-tested, my rough guesstimate of a potentially good usable single-strobe-look refresh rate range is ~80fps-~200fps on a 280Hz TUF. Give or take. Too low, it double-strobes. Too high, it crosstalks (almost as bad as double strobe). If in-game cap causes random double-images, use RTSS frame rate cap (it framepaces MUCH more accurately) -- "Right Capping Tool For Right Job" -- your priority is usable single-strobe frame rate -- and you need microsecond-accurate capping when you're capping strobed VRR. Configure approximately 180 or 200 or 220 into RTSS when using the 280Hz TUF.

Remember: Refresh rate headroom reduces strobe crosstalk. That's why 120Hz strobing looks better on 240Hz monitors than 120Hz strobing on 144Hz monitors. Also the crosstalk is sometimes confused with double-strobing. They produce similar artifacts, but sometimes it's so bad that crosstalk might as well be double-strobe. However, this isn't always the case with ELMB-SYNC. There are excellent strobe-related reasons why you should get 280Hz even if your game only runs at 144fps. Pays the extra money to reduce the strobe crosstalk by creating the refresh rate headroom.

TL;DR: Pay attention to overlapping the venn diagrams properly.
(A) Your game's frame rate fluctuation range
(B) The monitor's double-image-free strobe range

It's much easier with the 280Hz model.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

Ashun
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Joined: 06 Jan 2014, 21:12

Re: ELMB-Sync experiences?

Post by Ashun » 13 Feb 2020, 23:43

Avean, ELMB-Sync is functionally useless. ASUS did manage to achieve simultaneous backlight strobing and variable refresh, but they did so in a way that doesn't benefit motion clarity. In fact, I think it's worse than not strobing at all.

I measured the backlight of the VG27AQ during ELMB-Sync in 10 Hz increments from 30 Hz to 165 Hz. Here's an animation of the responses:
https://www.aperturegrille.com/reviews/ ... MB-Big.png

The yellow line is the frame-time for each refresh rate (one frame at 30 Hz is 33.3 ms, etc). Pay attention to its location relative to the primary pulse!

During ELMB-Sync, a primary pulse fires and lasts about 2.2 ms, but then to keep brightness levels the same at different refresh rates, ASUS adds in a variable length secondary strobe. This double strobing is bad enough, but working backwards from 165 Hz, this continues until 78 Hz, which is when the VG27AQ internally doubles its refresh rate. From 78 Hz down to 40 Hz, the VG27AQ starts quadruple strobing. And below 39 Hz (78/2), it now begins octuple-strobing! But at this point, the pulses are so far out of sync with the framerate, there are only seven distinct pulses at 30 Hz.

Even at 120+ Hz, the primary strobe is always slightly out of sync with the refresh rate, so when eye-tracking, the image you see (which is already a double image) cyclically shifts position. And at lower refresh rates, it's grotesque.

I have no idea how anyone at ASUS thought ELMB-Sync was in a good enough state to market it as a feature. More "reviews" should have complained about it.

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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: ELMB-Sync experiences?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 14 Feb 2020, 01:14

Just linking full review, it's really lovely passionate testing work -- really good stuff by Ashun: www.aperturegrille.com/reviews/ASUSVG27AQ/
Some of these tests are superior to what I see on familiar sites.

_____

One thing I noticed is that ELMB-SYNC algorithms is changing between different monitors, and what I briefly saw at CES seemed to be a big improvement. ASUS is tinkering ELMB-SYNC with every new model, and the strobe algorithm looked totally different in a brief demo of the 280Hz monitor.

Simon Baker of TFTCentral seemed impressed with his VG279QM unit, but I need to talk to him to see if that extends to ELMB_SYNC

What I would like a real test on the 280Hz ELMB-SYNC to see if the algorithm used in that model uses dynamic lengthening for the primary strobe. I'd honestly love to help ASUS with a new ELMB-SYNC algorithm, I've already given ASUS an invitation to collaborate with me -- they used my custom-created TestUFO for their 360Hz demo at CES 2020 so I had the opportunity to privately talk about ELMB-SYNC to them.

Hopefully I can find a way to help them improve ELMB-SYNC because I would love to see improved VRR strobing, and improved configurability of VRR strobing. I don't mind the automatic double-strobe algorithm below ~59Hz(ish) but the double-strobe should disappear at higher frame rates.

That said, I want to see reviewers do official tests on the 280Hz ELMB-SYNC.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

Ashun
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Joined: 06 Jan 2014, 21:12

Re: ELMB-Sync experiences?

Post by Ashun » 14 Feb 2020, 01:45

Were they showing both the VG259QM and VG279QM? ASUS also seems to be refreshing the VG27AQ as the VG27AQL1A, although I'm skeptical that ELMB-Sync will be dramatically improved on that one.

TFTCentral got a sample of the VG279QM on Feb. 6, and he was the first to mention the problems with ELMB-Sync, so I look forward to his review.

Avean
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Joined: 13 Feb 2020, 07:15

Re: ELMB-Sync experiences?

Post by Avean » 14 Feb 2020, 02:56

Ashun wrote:
13 Feb 2020, 23:43
Avean, ELMB-Sync is functionally useless.
Subscribed your channel! Amazing reviews and appreciate the reply as well as reply from the Chief :)
Thanks guys, im going to wait with a new monitor until you guys find a monitor with a very good implementation of ELMB-Sync if it will ever come.

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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: ELMB-Sync experiences?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 14 Feb 2020, 04:06

Ashun wrote:
14 Feb 2020, 01:45
Were they showing both the VG259QM and VG279QM? ASUS also seems to be refreshing the VG27AQ as the VG27AQL1A, although I'm skeptical that ELMB-Sync will be dramatically improved on that one.

TFTCentral got a sample of the VG279QM on Feb. 6, and he was the first to mention the problems with ELMB-Sync, so I look forward to his review.
I am going to probably write an article about VRR strobing in the near future. I've been hesistant to write until I've gotten enough information about the IPS and TN versions, since a my VA based unit adds a lot of strobe crosstalk above-and-beyond.

VA really isn't a good panel tech for strobing without a lot of advanced tuning help (true 256x256 overdrive LUTs combined with Y-axis overdrive gain zones) that is 10x+ more complicated than 1ms IPS and 1ms TN. Blur Busters does overdrive tuning services, and VA is just evilly difficult to strobe-tune very well. Only a few such as NVIDIA manages to do a reasonable job, but it still leaves some to be desired in dark colors.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

AddictFPS
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Joined: 15 Jan 2020, 14:13

Re: ELMB-Sync experiences?

Post by AddictFPS » 22 Feb 2020, 07:29

Ashun wrote:
13 Feb 2020, 23:43
Avean, ELMB-Sync is functionally useless. ASUS did manage to achieve simultaneous backlight strobing and variable refresh, but they did so in a way that doesn't benefit motion clarity. In fact, I think it's worse than not strobing at all.

I measured the backlight of the VG27AQ during ELMB-Sync in 10 Hz increments from 30 Hz to 165 Hz. Here's an animation of the responses:
https://www.aperturegrille.com/reviews/ ... MB-Big.png
I saw your VG279Q review in Youtube, very good work, is a pleasure read your fine detailed reviews Image

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