Could someone "school" me on motion blur by chance? Also Requesting <240hz Strobbed Photos.

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
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HyperSlayer72
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Could someone "school" me on motion blur by chance? Also Requesting <240hz Strobbed Photos.

Post by HyperSlayer72 » 26 Mar 2020, 14:51

Hello, I have a few questions and would appreciate some help from those of greater knowledge.

Currently the only monitor i've owned in the past years is a VG248qe, to this day it seems to be an outstanding performer when it comes to MPRT at 144hz and achieves crt clarity with near zero strobe cross-talk at 120hz light-boost. Unfortunately I still desire higher Refresh rates than 120 when strobbing. Eyestrain does build up, and the input lag increase when using light-boost is quite noticeable.

First major thing I need cleared up is what happened to MPRT as early >144hz TN monitors started to be released. From what I can tell the moment 144hz+ monitors went from PWM to Flicker Free, MPRT just got plane worse. Perhaps motion was smoother at 165, 180, and 240hz but nothing seemed to be as good as the old PWM options. As for Backlight Strobing almost new displays seems to have Strobe crosstalk. (excluding a few like Benq's 240hz Dyac Monitors.)

Are there currently any TN Monitors that are known to produce crt clarity without any strobe crosstalk at something higher than 120hz? Something like 165/180hz. Its my understanding that 240hz Backlight Strobing is still not crosstalk free at all parts of the display.

Lastly, has anyone managed to achieve perfect motion handling on the new 240hz IPS displays? 180hz thats crosstalk free with CRT Clairty on an IPS display would make me reach for my wallet.

I would love to see some pursuit photos of the Viewsonic XG270, Asus VG279QM, Acer Nitro XF252Q, and Benq XL2546 at 120hz, 180hz, and 200hz with Backlight Strobing. I have yet to see this.

alexander1986
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Re: Could someone "school" me on motion blur by chance? Also Requesting <240hz Strobbed Photos.

Post by alexander1986 » 27 Mar 2020, 04:58

from this somewhat low quality video of the xl2740 strobed at 240hz, benqs blur reduction looks quite good at least : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86BV9vdQRgo

I can only imagine that the dyac+ on the new xl2746S (and potentially 2546S if it is coming in near future or at all) will be at least as good, guy who made the video said his xl2546 looks identical on the testufo test as the xl2740 in the video, now the video might not be the best example but better than nothing, i've had a vg248qe since 2012 and it indeed is crt quality clarity with lightboost at 120 hz / 120 fps @ 10% strobing setting IMO, but as you say the input delay is quite noticeable not to mention the lost brightness and less than optimal colors,

I'd still prefer a newer TN panel if I was to upgrade today anyway, just waiting for xl2546S to be released or get a 2746S... ill update if I find more examples of 240 hz strobing or 180-200hz like you requested..


PS I reached out to the guy who made the video in a private message on these forums since he is a member here, "A Solid Lad" and asked him if he still has any of these benq 240 hz monitors, and if possible if he could give us photos / videos of the strobing quality/crosstalk quality on 180hz-200hz-240 hz and so on.

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Re: Could someone "school" me on motion blur by chance? Also Requesting <240hz Strobbed Photos.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 27 Mar 2020, 12:35

HyperSlayer72 wrote:
26 Mar 2020, 14:51
Are there currently any TN Monitors that are known to produce crt clarity without any strobe crosstalk at something higher than 120hz? Something like 165/180hz. Its my understanding that 240hz Backlight Strobing is still not crosstalk free at all parts of the display.

Lastly, has anyone managed to achieve perfect motion handling on the new 240hz IPS displays? 180hz thats crosstalk free with CRT Clairty on an IPS display would make me reach for my wallet.

I would love to see some pursuit photos of the Viewsonic XG270, Asus VG279QM, Acer Nitro XF252Q, and Benq XL2546 at 120hz, 180hz, and 200hz with Backlight Strobing. I have yet to see this.
Refresh rate headroom is very good for reducing strobe crosstalk. Strobed 120Hz mode on a 240Hz monitor has less crosstalk than strobed 120Hz on a 144Hz monitor in many situations.

Here are some XG270 pursuit photos for 100Hz and 120Hz, from this thread.

Image

Certainly not perfect, but this is about the best 120Hz IPS strobing on the market (currently), from a crosstalk perspective. Pretty competitive with LightBoost, except it's an IPS panel and great colors. For more information, see Blur Busters Approved.

Now, if you wanted max-Hz strobing, the XL2546S is pretty good, but you will want 240fps@240Hz to eliminate the double image effect.
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Re: Could someone "school" me on motion blur by chance? Also Requesting <240hz Strobbed Photos.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 27 Mar 2020, 13:12

You asked for a bit of Blur Busters "school" education! Here goes:

First, read these articles.
- Blur Busters Law And The Amazing Journey To Future 1000 Hz Displays
- The Stroboscopic Effect Of Finite-Framerate Displays
- Pixel Response FAQ: GtG Versus MPRT

Go ahead, this forum thread will be waiting for you. The articles I write tend to be the world's most educational "Popular Science language" articles about display motion blur and display refresh rate artifacts. These articles have since been vetted by multiple researchers. Even NVIDIA scientists/employees spread these articles internally as easy-to-read Cole Notes versions of the advanced stuff some of them do. Designed for readers like you, our articles are much easier to read than a university thesis. If you still don't understand them, just feel free to ask questions here.

Now back to this thread about strobing.

- On sample and hold displays, you need to double Hz to halve motion blur.
This is very hard, since non-strobed 1ms MPRT requires 1000fps at 1000Hz. But the industry is beginning to roadmap towards 1000Hz,

- On strobed displays, you need to halve strobe length to halve motion blur.
This is much easier, since all you need to do is flash a strobe backlight, but you need to be careful about flashing the backlight correctly.

Image

Image

One problem with strobe backlights is you need framerates matching refresh rates. This can create worse motion if you use too high a strobe refresh rate, and your game frame rate cannot keep up. That's why 100fps@100Hz strobing sometimes is more fun to play at than 100fps@120Hz strobing. For motion quality purists, a common technique to reduce refresh rate to match the framerate valley, to avoid the double image effects. This is when you're image-quality-priority over competitive-lag-priority.

Image

Another problem with strobe backlights is not all pixels refresh simultaneously. They refresh top-to-bottom in a sequential scanout. This creates a challenge for strobe backlights which works best when the whole panel is finished refreshing all at once. A TestUFO animation that flashes a different image every different refresh cycle. Several videos are published at www.testufo.com/scanout and www.blurbusters.com/scanout

Non-Strobed
phpBB [video]


Strobed
phpBB [video]


The best time to flash the backlight is when the scanout is between refresh cycles. But sometimes, you've got so slow GtG, they can leak into each other's refresh cycles. That is the main cause of strobe crosstalk.

Three Refresh Cycles, Overlapped
These panels are impossible to strobe without bad strobe crosstalk. Even scanning backlights (rolling strobe) will have major difficulties with this, because 3 refresh cycles overlap at the same pixels in overlapped fade zones.
Image

However, some of this is fixable by lengthening your VBI (Vertical Blanking Interval), either via internal scan conversion in the TCON/scaler, or via Large Vertical Totals. For example, a 240Hz panel can be configured to refresh a 120Hz refresh cycle in a 1/240sec scanout, creating an idle period between scanouts that can allow GtG of the current sweep to finish, before beginning the next sweep. This allows a more crosstalk-free strobe, as found on Blur Busters Approved monitors (Currently, ViewSonic XG720), as well as via Blur Busters Strobe Utility (BenQ/ZOWIE).

Eventually, we'll have insane frame rates at insane refresh rates, eliminating the need for strobing.

Hope this helps you understand how challenging it is to have a crosstalk-free strobe backlight, and why it's much easier with lower refresh rates (both from a monitor-engineering perspective, as well as from a "fps=Hz" requirement perspective). If you need the best max-Hz strobing for lowest-lag strobing, the XL2546/XL2546S probably becomes your best bet. That said, if you want good IPS colors while strobing, while having low crosstalk, you will want to want to consider the XG270.
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HyperSlayer72
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Re: Could someone "school" me on motion blur by chance? Also Requesting <240hz Strobbed Photos.

Post by HyperSlayer72 » 27 Mar 2020, 14:27

alexander1986 wrote:
27 Mar 2020, 04:58
from this somewhat low quality video of the xl2740 strobed at 240hz, benqs blur reduction looks quite good at least : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86BV9vdQRgo

I can only imagine that the dyac+ on the new xl2746S (and potentially 2546S if it is coming in near future or at all) will be at least as good, guy who made the video said his xl2546 looks identical on the testufo test as the xl2740 in the video, now the video might not be the best example but better than nothing, i've had a vg248qe since 2012 and it indeed is crt quality clarity with lightboost at 120 hz / 120 fps @ 10% strobing setting IMO, but as you say the input delay is quite noticeable not to mention the lost brightness and less than optimal colors,

I'd still prefer a newer TN panel if I was to upgrade today anyway, just waiting for xl2546S to be released or get a 2746S... ill update if I find more examples of 240 hz strobing or 180-200hz like you requested..


PS I reached out to the guy who made the video in a private message on these forums since he is a member here, "A Solid Lad" and asked him if he still has any of these benq 240 hz monitors, and if possible if he could give us photos / videos of the strobing quality/crosstalk quality on 180hz-200hz-240 hz and so on.
Thanks for the reply, definitely the xl2740 looks perfectly fine to me at 240hz strobbed. The cross-talk doesn't look bad at all. I would definitely be curious whether lowering the refresh-rate down a bit makes a meaningful difference for cross talk. Please let me know if he does those tests.

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Re: Could someone "school" me on motion blur by chance? Also Requesting <240hz Strobbed Photos.

Post by HyperSlayer72 » 27 Mar 2020, 14:33

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
27 Mar 2020, 13:12
You asked for a bit of Blur Busters "school" education! Here goes:
Thanks Chief for the info dump, I have already read a fair bit of this but definitely appreciate the effort and will continue to read more. If you by chance have any pursuit camera photos of the XG270 strobbing above 120hz please show me what you got. Also what is / do you have an opinion on how the Asus VG279QM performs when strobbing vs the XG270? I really wish we just had a huge collection of pursuit camera photos on all these 240hz ips displays. Its near impossible to compare pursuit camera photos between tftcentrals VG279QM review using the ufo image and rtings XG270 pursuit image with their "rtings logo".

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Re: Could someone "school" me on motion blur by chance? Also Requesting <240hz Strobbed Photos.

Post by HyperSlayer72 » 27 Mar 2020, 14:39

Additionally a bit of a side question. Its my understanding that VA panels can generally achieve better black levels. Is this true or is the panel simply achieving a higher contrast ratio through peak brightness? I generally want to get a panel with nice blacks and would be curious if any good strobbed VA monitors exist.

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Re: Could someone "school" me on motion blur by chance? Also Requesting <240hz Strobbed Photos.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 27 Mar 2020, 15:48

HyperSlayer72 wrote:
27 Mar 2020, 14:39
Additionally a bit of a side question. Its my understanding that VA panels can generally achieve better black levels. Is this true or is the panel simply achieving a higher contrast ratio through peak brightness? I generally want to get a panel with nice blacks and would be curious if any good strobbed VA monitors exist.
Yes, VA panels have great blacks but their ghosting is extremely bad with dark colors -- literally 10x more ghostly. VA panels are great for movie watching but bad for high-refresh-rate dark games (dungeon games) that uses lots of the slow colors of VA --

VA panels usually do not produce very good strobe quality, unless you're using huge amounts of refresh rate headroom combined with stellar overdrive tuning (e.g. 144Hz panel at 75Hz strobe, or 240Hz panel at 100Hz strobe).

<Technical Engineering>
If one moves to advanced strobe-optimized overdrive lookup tables (256x256, not 8x8, not 17x17) combined with a Y-axis Overdrive Gain gradient (e.g. stronger OD gain for bottom edge) -- and a slight gamut reduction to allow overshoot room above white and below black for faster rippleless overdrive control of dark colors -- then you can make some VA panels mostly strobe crosstalk free. This was kinda done for 3D panels back in the day to reduce 3D glasses crosstalk. But such advanced overdrive tuning takes 100x+ more work than basic overdrive tuning. And it can only do so much for VA dark colors, but Costs a lot more in engineering costs.

This is not currently done nowadays for low-cost VA gaming monitors (under $1000), except for LightBoost. NVIDIA does a stellar job of LightBoost and ULMB calibration, though panel limitations can interfere such as those in the new article at www.blurbusters.com/red-phosphor.
</Technical Engineering>
HyperSlayer72 wrote:
27 Mar 2020, 14:33
Thanks Chief for the info dump, I have already read a fair bit of this but definitely appreciate the effort and will continue to read more. If you by chance have any pursuit camera photos of the XG270 strobbing above 120hz please show me what you got.
Keep tuned. This will be coming in the new article that comes after the ViewSonic XG270 firmware release.

Also, BTW, have you read the newer article at www.blurbusters.com/red-phosphor yet for further insight of strobe behaviours? It's so new that it's not published much anywhere.
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Re: Could someone "school" me on motion blur by chance? Also Requesting <240hz Strobbed Photos.

Post by HyperSlayer72 » 27 Mar 2020, 16:03

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
27 Mar 2020, 15:48
Yes, VA panels have great blacks but their ghosting is extremely bad with dark colors -- literally 10x more ghostly.
Ill Stay Tuned for that info on the XG270. I did read the red phosphor article when it came out yes. What do you know about the transition from PWM to DC? Why did even the highest end gaming monitors transition away from pwm? I know the VG248qe had a PWM frequency of 833hz and flicker was imperceptible. Was it for the sake of upping refresh rates beyond 144hz? Good PWM monitors have never caused me eyestrain.

Considering what you said about VA panels what do we have look forward to in the future regarding low persistence low black level displays? I've been curious for a while whether miniled backlight technology by chance have response times fast enough to be paired with high hz TN or IPS monitors to give them true blacks. Is that a possibility or do we have to wait for another technology?

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Re: Could someone "school" me on motion blur by chance? Also Requesting <240hz Strobbed Photos.

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 27 Mar 2020, 16:07

HyperSlayer72 wrote:
27 Mar 2020, 16:03
Considering what you said about VA panels what do we have look forward to in the future regarding low persistence low black level displays? I've been curious for a while whether miniled backlight technology by chance have response times fast enough to be paired with high hz TN or IPS monitors to give them true blacks. Is that a possibility or do we have to wait for another technology?
OLED and MiniLED can have response times fast enough. MiniLED even more so. The problem is in the driver electronics, which needs to be customized -- e.g. Custom 960Hz Scan Electronics.

There is a lot of complexities. Just because fast pixel response exists, does not mean that the driver electronics are fast enough to keep up. LCD is already capable of 1000 Hz refresh rates, but driver electronics aren't keeping up. I expect the first affordable 1000Hz display to be an LCD. But the best high-Hz quality will come from MiniLED once they receive similar driver electronics.

Before then, a possible good compromise is a MiniLED HDR scanning backlight with a fast LCD that can has relatively thin GtG fade zones outside the scanning backlight internal lightbleed zone (to avoid scanning backlight crosstalk). More info about GtG fade zones at www.blurbusters.com/scanout (High speed videos) and scanning backlights at www.blurbusters.com/faq/creating-strobe-backlight (Engineering article).
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       To support Blur Busters:
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       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

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