Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
JDnoob
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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by JDnoob » 12 Sep 2021, 23:04

If anybody can verify that they can get 60hz-single-strobing working stutter-free on Oculus Quest 2 with a test-UFO pattern over Virtual Desktop, please tell us what GPU you have and if you did anything special.

It appears that even over oculus link (wired to computer), there are still stuttering issues when using the steam version of virtual desktop (wired). This also applies to the desktop in oculus home and in the steam menu.

A potential factor with this problem is that the Quest 2 is not like a monitor in the sense that it is plugged in with a DisplayPort cable. Over oculus link, the usb-3 cable connection is just encoding and decoding a video feed. There are potentially problems somewhere in the encode-decode process that make stutter-free nearly impossible with the Quest 2 whether it's wired or not. This is a huge disappointment for motion purists. It also makes no sense because VR games can be streamed stutter-free but not the desktop. Its clearly designed for VR gaming so they made it work well just for that.

NOTE: If anyone has a higher end Nvidia graphics card, please see if you can get virtual desktop stutter-free as most of my testing has been on AMD and lower-tier Nvidia GPUs. The encoding to the headset could be dependent on the GPU which could be causing the stuttering for AMD and older Nvidia users.

The closest I could get to stutter-free was with the steam version of virtual desktop (wired) with oculus link at 72hz, 80hz, 90hz, and 120hz when matching the display refresh rate by using CRU. 60hz doesn't work reliably for most games over oculus link as 60hz is not technically supported with a wired connection (really Oculus?). The steam version of VD seems to also be inferior for text clarity on the desktop.

Don't read my slightly personal rant:

Its obvious Facebook and Oculus put in 60hz strobing as an afterthought to save battery and performance is some circumstances. I'm doubtful they actually gave any thought to it being used for 60fps content like consoles and YouTube even though this tech would have been a blessing to this community. It's clearly not meant to work for this purpose despite being perfect for it because why else would it be so janky. The Quest 2 probably has the best motion clarity and crosstalk since CRT so why, just why?

For 60hz single-strobing lovers, It still stands that the industry is mostly rigged against us. Not enough consumers and therefore companies understand or care about motion clarity for 60fps content. It's as if console games limited to 60fps aren't serious games anyway so we get few attempts to "bandage" them to look better. It's as if only PC games with higher framerates deserve good motion treatment. We still live in dark times for making 60fps motion look good. Hopefully things keep getting better.

I can't wait for Blur Busters 2.0 monitors to be available and in-stock for my own mental health. The oculus quest 2 is not a great alternative with its jankiness. The fact that playing YouTube videos on the Quest 2 built-in OS still produces stuttering problems is hilariously frustrating.

JoseJL
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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by JoseJL » 13 Sep 2021, 08:02

JDnoob wrote:
12 Sep 2021, 23:04
If anybody can verify that they can get 60hz-single-strobing working stutter-free on Oculus Quest 2 with a test-UFO pattern over Virtual Desktop, please tell us what GPU you have and if you did anything special.
Sadly, I'm finding the same issue on my PC. (RTX 2070 Mobile)
Setting my main display to 60 hz makes it much better, but there's some stutter once in a while.
I have tried some SteamVR desktop applications, like Desktop+. It's free so I guess it's worth a try.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1494460/Desktop/

The stutter is gone there for me, but sadly the picture quality isn't as good as VD.

JDnoob
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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by JDnoob » 13 Sep 2021, 14:48

JoseJL wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 08:02
Sadly, I'm finding the same issue on my PC. (RTX 2070 Mobile)
Setting my main display to 60 hz makes it much better, but there's some stutter once in a while.
Thanks for response!

How often is “once in a while” when referring to 60hz-single-strobing on wireless oculus store version of Virtual Desktop?

For me it stutters randomly about once every couple of seconds or so but can sometimes go for many seconds without stuttering. Overall its super obvious and completely ruins the enjoyment for me and probably most motion purists.

I would say that acceptable stuttering would be no more than around 6 per minute or every 10 seconds. Over wireless VD I probably get around 30 per minute that is not always evenly paced and can have bursts and breaks.

Its worth noting that the other refresh rates also seem to have terrible stutter so I don’t think the problem is related to 60hz in wireless Virtual Desktop but rather something else.

JDnoob
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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by JDnoob » 17 Sep 2021, 23:57

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
31 Oct 2020, 18:59
HOWTO: Use Oculus Quest 2 VR Headset as 60 Hz Single Strobe Monitor
for non-VR Gaming / Emulators / Videos

...

Currently, IMHO, this is one of the best "60Hz single strobe PC monitor" money can buy for true real world MPRT(100%) under 1ms at 60 Hz refresh rate. As long as you're OK with a very smidge of latency. Funny that the best 60 Hz single-strober is, currently a VR headset, being used to emulate a virtual computer monitor in 3D space...

(Tested by me on my Quest 2. Works great.)
I'm sure you are a very busy gentleman Chief but since you seem to have clearly had 60hz-single-strobing on the Quest 2 working at one point, would you mind giving it a quick try again on the latest updates? Other users are reporting the same stuttering issues as me and I suspect it may no longer be possible.

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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 18 Sep 2021, 14:31

JDnoob wrote:
17 Sep 2021, 23:57
I'm sure you are a very busy gentleman Chief but since you seem to have clearly had 60hz-single-strobing on the Quest 2 working at one point, would you mind giving it a quick try again on the latest updates? Other users are reporting the same stuttering issues as me and I suspect it may no longer be possible.
It's been a while, I have not currently recently tested 60 Hz single strobe (it worked fine for Android apps and web browsers playing video) but the easiest way to do 60 Hz single strobe without stutters has for me lately has been:

(A) Use SideQuest app to force Oculus Home to 60 Hz. Thus any Android app you launch, run at 60fps
(B) Sideload an Android .apk (e.g. Android version of MAME). Do this by enabling Developer Mode, and sideload the .apk

You also have at least THREE or FOUR different methods of streaming PC to Quest 2, using Virtual Desktop is only one method.

Some of these are stutter free, others are not. I'd love reports. Right now I'm too busy on another project to re-test the half dozen methods of running 60fps content on the Quest 2 latest firmware, but I know that you can just merely jailbreak your Quest 2 and just merely sideload Android apps. Android apps act as floating screens (like a 100 inch TV floating in the middle of space).

TL;DR: Moral of the Story: Don't limit yourself to AirLink or Virtual Desktop, open up and widen your horizons of flexibility of options. BigScreen also CAN stream PC content (playing PC games), and you CAN also use the Oculus Link cable too (with either Virtual Desktop or BigScreen or other PC streaming apps), to avoid WiFi-related stutter.

There ARE multiple ways to get 60fps third-party-app content onto your Quest 2, including both out-of-box options, developer-mode options, and jailbreak options. (Just because one or two method stutters, does not mean the end of the world).

Also, don't underestimate the use of in-VR web browsers (e.g. FireFox browser or Quest 2 browser) to play content. 60fps content sometimes play better in these in-VR web browsers, than the Quest 2 YouTube app, and some played better in one of the two browsers (the included Oculus browser, or the third party FireFox Reality browser. And of course, you can move your 60fps .mp4 or .mkv file into the Quest 2 to play via BigScreen + 60Hz (via SideQuest forcing). So there, that's yet another option.

I suspect that the Android YouTube app might also work better. Also, the Android version of Netflix is a clearer/sharper (full 1080p method) way of playing Netflix, than the Oculus Store's Netflix player. Sometimes the Android .apk sideload method produces superior solutions (in certain cases).

Also, in all situations you want low-stutter WiFi, always buy (A) 2nd low latency WiFi 6 router (not a USB dongle or built-in USB) and make Quest 2 the only WiFi connection. The Extra Latency / Extra Buffering settings inside Virtual Desktop also helps reduce stutter too (I think also for even hardwired connections too). Although I find sideloaded Android .apks play 60fps much more flawlessly. Don't connect any WiFi devices to your second Quest2-only external (gigahertz-processor with minimum 3 antennas) WiFi 6 router. Expect to spend +$150 for a low-stutter WiFi6 experience.

There's a big soup of methods of 60fps single-strobe methods for a Quest 2, some of which are stutter-free, some of which requires the USB cable, some of which requires developer mode, and some of which requires sideloading, etc.

So I shall summarize things to try for single-strobe 60 Hz (with the help of SideQuest Settings screen to force Quest 2 into a 60Hz mode)

Various Methods of Consuming External Content on Quest 2

(A) Built-in Oculus Browser (videos, Javascript games, etc)
(B) FireFox Reality Browser (videos, JavaScript games, etc)
(C) Sideload Android .apk (video players, applications, emulators, etc)
(D) in-VR BigScreen (ARM app from Quest Store) with .mp4 .mov .mkv copied into Quest 2 memory
(F) in-VR BigScreen (ARM app from Quest Store) streaming PC desktop hardwired (Oculus Link)
(E) BigScreen streaming PC desktop wirelessly (dedicated WiFi6 router)
(G) Virtual Desktop streaming PC desktop hardwired (Oculus Link)
(H) Virtual Desktop streaming PC desktop wirelessly (dedicated WiFi6 router)
(I) Streaming PCVR BigScreen (x86 app from Rift Store) with PC remote desktop -- via AirLink
(J) Streaming PCVR BigScreen (x86 app from Rift Store) with PC remote desktop -- via Virtual Desktop
(K) Streaming PCVR BigScreen (x86 app from Rift Store) with PC remote desktop -- via Oculus Link USB-C
(L) Other virtual desktop apps (e.g. Desktop+ on Steam)


There are more methods, but start by testing all the above. In all cases, launch SideQuest on your PC to reconfigure your Quest 2 to 60Hz single-strobe mode, for use with applications that don't support the option to select a 60 Hz refresh rate.

Now, if you must stream wirelessly instead of over a 10 gigabit/sec USB cable, remember to:

Lowest-Stutter WiFi Streaming To Quest 2

So if you want low-stutter WiFi with Virtual Desktop, you must:
1. Dedicated router separate of your existing router.
2. Not your computer's builtin WiFi.
3. Not a USB WiFi adaptor.
4. Has to have full duplex WiFi like WiFi 6
5. Router must have gigahertz multicore processor for fast low-lag low-jitter routing, WiFi router CPU below 25% utilization
6. Quest 2 is the only WiFi device on that dedicated Quest2-only WiFi6 router. No other WiFi devices on same router.
7. The dedicated router has at least 3 antennas.
8. Completely disable the 2.4 Ghz feature and disable guest WiFi feature of the dedicated WiFi 6 router
9. Dedicated router is in the same room as Quest 2
10. If using Virtual Desktop, Enable the Extra Latency / Extra Buffering modes. Also test out BigScreen too


Remember! On many cheap WiFi routers, even a single packet from a 2nd device such as an single Alexa smartbulb can sometimes create a router-processing dominoe effect to the point of adding 1 frame of stutter to a shared router! You must use a dedicated router where possible. A fast CPU in the dedicated router helps so it has permanently low WiFi jitter which is critically important. Do not connect additional WiFi devices to your Quest2-only WiFi 6 router.

Ideally you want to choose a high-rated router that has gaming-quality features. It's a big spend to add more reliable WiFi, but it's the price of low-stutter WiFi. Many stutters are the Quest 2 fault, but a lot of wireless stutters are solved by the 10-steps above.

Additional Tips

Temporarily Disable Guardian / Avoid Activating VR Grid / VR Sofas / VR Desks
You also *may* have to temporarily disable your Guardian to improve stutters (or just make sure Guardian grid is never accidentally activated -- disable the look-down feature and make sure your space is big enough you never activate it during 60 Hz content). Since you're probably sitting down with your Quest 2 while doing your 60 Hz content (videos, emulators), you can temporarily do without the Guardian anyway during these situations unless it's not causing problems. Since the Guardian is running at an update frequency that sometimes interferes with 60Hz operation. So stutters suddenly appear. It did get worse in some of those recent firmwares, but disabling it solves that problem, but keeping it big that the grid doesn't activate also helps too. Keep your arms close to yourself if using Guardian in seated mode. Avoid the sofa/desk feature of Guardian, it adds processing overheads that interferes with zero-stutter reliability.

Upgrade USB Reliability
For improved-reliability USB, you may want to use a dedicated USB-C controller with the Quest 2 Oculus Link cable the only cable connected to that "hub" chip. If your computer is clogged with USB peripherals, buy a PCI Express USB-C card and connect your Quest 2 to that USB-C port. Also, remember the expensive Oculus Link cable is an actual fiber-optic USB-C cable vastly superior to your cheap $10 Amazon USB-C cable. So if you don't buy the Oculus branded link, and you buy a USB-C cable elsewhere, do not skimp. Even if it means deciding between a $25 5-star cable and a $10 4-star cable, err on the side of caution.

Raise Streaming Priority On PC
Also, use Task Manager to raise the priority of the video streaming compressor on the PC to a higher priority. e.g. Virtual Desktop Streaming app. Monitor what processes consumes GPU, and prioritize the app that streams the GPU on PC side. Sometimes the fault is PC side (e.g. SteamVR streamer vs Oculus streamer vs Virtual Desktop streamer not processing equally reliably PC-side). If using a laptop GPU, keep it plugged into AC. Use Performance Mode (power management disabled), for low-latency low-stutter operations.

Again, Don't Skimp on WiFi if Using WiFi Streaming
For wireless, make sure you have a dedicated 2nd WiFi6 router with gigahertz processor for low latency routing + at least 3 antennas + no other devices connected to that router. There ARE other causes of stutter, but you want to eliminate WiFi fault from stutters where possible. This is such a major upgrade to WiFi-related stutters. Troubleshoot by comparing USB-C wired stutters versus WiFi stutters. Zeroing out the difference requires following the 10 steps above. Today, even a budget gaming router ($150 league) are now gigahertz multicore, and can route packets very fast for a single device (Quest 2), you want ultralow packet jitter -- the next packet cannot be 2ms earlier or 2ms delayed -- it needs to be near zero jitter. Again, I must admonish a full repeat, pony up the money for a dedicated multicore-CPU WiFi 6 router in the same room, if you want to approach wired-quality with your WiFi Quest 2, full stop, mic drop, no excuses, no buts.

Wired Mode Only: Using Oculus Tray Tool with Oculus Link (not Virtual Desktop)
This may help you increase resolution/detail of your Oculus PCVR apps, such as for blurry apps. You can google around for this, e.g. Using Tray Tool / Debug Tool tweaking to increase resolution of PCVR apps. YMMV, it may not apply to the specific app, but might maybe help get a little bit more resolution from PCVR BigScreen or PCVR Desktop+.

As always, please post your reports in this thread, and also please specify method of streaming (including the specs of your dedicated WiFi router). Hold off on your feedback until you test *both* your dedicated WiFi 6 router and a hardwire USB-C connection -- troubleshoot by watching stutter differences between the two methods, with the various methods of running/playing content.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

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JoseJL
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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by JoseJL » 18 Sep 2021, 15:47

JDnoob wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 14:48
Thanks for response!

How often is “once in a while” when referring to 60hz-single-strobing on wireless oculus store version of Virtual Desktop?
Sorry for the late response, it's been a really busy week for me. Anyhow, I'm getting some minor stuttering each 10 seconds or so sometimes. Sometimes I get no stutter at all.

I also have a dedicated router WiFi 6 router for the Quest (PC is connected through Ethernet).

These are my VD streamer settings
Screenshot 2021-09-18 224636.png
Screenshot 2021-09-18 224636.png (18 KiB) Viewed 16310 times
I think disabling the automatic bitrate helped in my case. Also I'm using HEVC codec

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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 18 Sep 2021, 16:06

JoseJL wrote:
18 Sep 2021, 15:47
I think disabling the automatic bitrate helped in my case. Also I'm using HEVC codec
Yes, my RTX 3080 does HEVC pretty excellently, but some older GPUs perform more jitter-free with H.264.
Also, raising the Task Manager priority of the Virtual Desktop streamer a notch, helps a tiny bit too.

Yes disabling automatic bitrate (useful for variable WiFi reception but bad for jitter). You don't need automatic bitrate for a dedicated Quest 2 router running in the same room. Use a fixed bit rate to get fixed latency. You want less jitter in the latency. Unchanging latency is more important than the amount of latency itself, for stutter-free operations.

During 120fps streaming, you have only 8ms (1/120sec) between frames. Even a 2ms latency jitter gives you a 25% chance of missing a VSYNC. It can be less or more than that depending on the VSYNC algorithm it uses -- if it is using a tight margin of 2ms buffer, then a 2ms jitter has a near 100% chance of stutter. Fixing WiFi latency jitter helps massively. Using a bigger buffer / extra latency can help.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

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RonsonPL
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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by RonsonPL » 19 Sep 2021, 06:40

Could you guys please test it on cable connection too?

BTW. I am very curious of the results. If you still cannot make it stutter free (if it's perfect for 9 seconds and one missed frame, then another 9 seconds, I think I could live with it ;) ) maybe co-operating would be a good idea? I mean, Some things the Chief would've done if he had time, could be done by JDnoob or other Quest 2 owner and then Chief could try helping if it's a quick task, not an hour long project ;)

mango87
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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by mango87 » 22 Sep 2021, 08:19

Any news on a monitor? 2021 is almost over and I'm still stuck with my XL2411P. Waiting for the jump to 1440P or 4k with 60hz BFI. :(

JDnoob
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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by JDnoob » 22 Sep 2021, 18:41

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
18 Sep 2021, 14:31
I suspect that the Android YouTube app might also work better.
It would appear that you cannot sideload android apps which require google play services such as the YouTube app and Chrome. How were you able to get this working?

Using browsers such as DuckDuckGo which do not require google play services, I was able to get videos on YouTube stutter-free, but they only run at 30fps because apparently the android player in these browsers does not support 60fps. 60hz-single-strobe videos were only possible at 2x speed.

I would like a way to watch YouTube videos stutter-free with 60hz single-strobe. Is there an android app that does not require google play services but still has a high quality YouTube video player that can do 60fps?
JoseJL wrote:
18 Sep 2021, 15:47
Sorry for the late response, it's been a really busy week for me. Anyhow, I'm getting some minor stuttering each 10 seconds or so sometimes. Sometimes I get no stutter at all.

I also have a dedicated router WiFi 6 router for the Quest (PC is connected through Ethernet).
This is far better than my results and I would actually consider that amount of stutter acceptable. I get stutters and stutter bursts every few seconds or so with stutter-free breaks longer than 10 seconds being rare.

Are you using the test UFO? https://www.testufo.com/, it can be difficult to see every stutter otherwise.

In which case, I envy your results. what exact router are you using?

I will test all of the other routes soon including BigScreen and other wired options, but it takes time so I cannot do it all at once.

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