Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Ask about motion blur reduction in gaming monitors. Includes ULMB (Ultra Low Motion Blur), NVIDIA LightBoost, ASUS ELMB, BenQ/Zowie DyAc, Turbo240, ToastyX Strobelight, etc.
Angel Soler
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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by Angel Soler » 01 Nov 2020, 15:33

Thank you very much, Chief!!!

Fantastic topic!!

Wednesday arrives my Xl 2411 k!!! :)
Console Gaming with CRT clarity!! Awesome!
Blur Buster Utility is magical!!

I also have got oculus quest 2. I’ll try it!! ;)

Greetings

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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 01 Nov 2020, 16:04

pacman wrote:
01 Nov 2020, 14:12
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 20:50
Cons: KSF phosphor, but tolerable
We will see how that looks. All I ask is something like this: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=7520
Is it possible to get such level of motion clarity with modern IPS panels?
Yes, some of my IPS can do that now. That's what it looks like on my ViewSonic XG270 at 75Hz strobe rate (no crosstalk for 80% of screen height), and also my Oculus Quest 2 VR headset can do better than that YouTube (zero crosstalk for 100% screen height). Refresh rate headroom is your friend!

The biggest problem is many manufacturers don't properly add 100% strobe phase range (e.g. strobe flash pulse-rise offset adjustable by a full amplitude of a full refresh cycle, in approximately 1/100th refresh cycle increments). Then you use a large blanking interval big enough to hide the crosstalk band between refresh cycles (cramming GtG into VBI). You can hack that via an external backlight controller, but I'd rather manufacturers do this stuff. A Visible:VBI ratio of 25%:75% is possible with 240Hz IPS, doing 4.2ms(visible):12.5ms(hidden). 12ms is more than enough to hide IPS real-world GtG99% from human eyes,
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valfranx
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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by valfranx » 02 Nov 2020, 11:49

undoubtedly great news, in the future is good to develop a method to take advantage of the natural anti-aliasing benefits that we see on crt monitor screens that are mentioned a lot by users of these monitors, where we don't need to use anti-aliasing of software that greatly reduces the fps of a game.

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AddictFPS
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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by AddictFPS » 03 Nov 2020, 07:38

I still use 21" shadow mask CRT for some games, and the fact subpixels are circles in a triangle array Vs 90 degree corners in LCD, make aliasing a bit less agressive than LCD of the same pixel size. Differece is very subtle. Of course, is needed also high quality GPU AA for get excellent results.

CRT hardware antialiasing is another thing, is apply supersampling with beam. With custom resolution, increase progressive resolution above monitor specs and reduce frequency to not exceed KHz limit. This maintain GPU load, but refreshrate is reduced. Beam is forced to draw more tight horizontal lines. This cause a type of "hardware AA" (uncontrolled), but increase flicker (reduced refresh), add input lag (betwhen refresh time), and there are color mixing (blurred image).

I prefer maintain pixel sharpness, color quality and higher frequency. Ok high quality GPU AA cause excesive GPU load, is needed upgrade GPU, but result in better image quality. If resolution is forced beyond physical pixel size, allways result in blurred image.

Some people use CRT even with custom interlaced resolutions, in order to double vertical resolution maintaining the frequency. This cause blurred anti-aliasing effect, and introduce interlaced motion artifacts, the same ones of old video interlaced signals.

This can't be done with LCD or OLED. Increase resolution to 4K 8K 16K and GPU horsepower, is the way to erradicate aliasing and shimmering completely in a natural way. Goal is a bit above max know retina resolution. Above this = useless waste of resources. GPU AA is a temporal patch to emulate it.

Samsung OLED can manufacture up to 10,000 dpi panels. For monitor is not needed insane 10,000 at 50cm distance to reach retina. At this point, AA becomes obsolete. Like place smartphone QHD at 50cm and try see pixels, only light and colors, never more ugly square dots. Text fonts become amazingly sharp, perfect curves.

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valfranx
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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by valfranx » 03 Nov 2020, 15:55

AddictFPS wrote:
03 Nov 2020, 07:38

I prefer maintain pixel sharpness, color quality and higher frequency. Ok high quality GPU AA cause excesive GPU load, is needed upgrade GPU, but result in better image quality. If resolution is forced beyond physical pixel size, allways result in blurred image.

Some people use CRT even with custom interlaced resolutions, in order to double vertical resolution maintaining the frequency. This cause blurred anti-aliasing effect, and introduce interlaced motion artifacts, the same ones of old video interlaced signals.

This can't be done with LCD or OLED. Increase resolution to 4K 8K 16K and GPU horsepower, is the way to erradicate aliasing and shimmering completely in a natural way. Goal is a bit above max know retina resolution. Above this = useless waste of resources. GPU AA is a temporal patch to emulate it.

i have been using gpu scaling to run games in low resolution that calibrates images well, makes them sharper and hides most of the pixel distortions and as much as we push the best filters, i still notice that pixels and edges are distorted when we see objects the distance, more when we get closer the distortions disappear.

so dlss 2 is the only way to obtain sharp and less jagged images at low resolutions, while a hardware solution is not yet possible, the only problem is that compatibility with dlss 2 is very limited.

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Chief Blur Buster
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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 03 Nov 2020, 20:53

The upcoming strobed 4K 144Hz NanoIPS should be a great low persistence HLSL CRT filter screen with full 100% CRT color gamut. Closest to a CRT replacement screen you can get spatially AND temporally. Main thing missing is perfect blacks via MiniLED FALD (Full Array Local Dimming) rolling scanning backlight, which I’d hope can be done cheaply/well.

On these, you’d combine 120Hz hardware strobe + 60Hz software BFI in order to halve the KSF red phosphor ghosting, and then it’s fainter than plasma ghosting. 60Hz single strobe will work too, though with a little more KSF red ghosting than the technique above. The KSF ghosting in NanoIPS is acceptable in CRT emulation use cases because it IS phosphor decay-based ghosting (Not normal strobe crosstalk), just like a slower red CRT phosphor. When made sufficiently faint, it’s a nonissue for 60Hz CRT emulator use cases.
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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by Sick_of_Blur » 04 Nov 2020, 00:46

Option two on the list should suffice without too much tinkering in the settings, correct? I'm talking about specifically for console gaming.

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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 04 Nov 2020, 01:11

Sick_of_Blur wrote:
04 Nov 2020, 00:46
Option two on the list should suffice without too much tinkering in the settings, correct? I'm talking about specifically for console gaming.
Xl2411 strobing works with consoles, yes.

You may need to adjust Strobe Phase in either the Factory Menu or first via PC Strobe Utility before playing with the console.
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       To support Blur Busters:
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AddictFPS
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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by AddictFPS » 04 Nov 2020, 14:02

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
03 Nov 2020, 20:53
The upcoming strobed 4K 144Hz NanoIPS should be a great low persistence HLSL CRT filter screen with full 100% CRT color gamut. Closest to a CRT replacement screen you can get spatially AND temporally. Main thing missing is perfect blacks via MiniLED FALD (Full Array Local Dimming) rolling scanning backlight, which I’d hope can be done cheaply/well.

On these, you’d combine 120Hz hardware strobe + 60Hz software BFI in order to halve the KSF red phosphor ghosting, and then it’s fainter than plasma ghosting. 60Hz single strobe will work too, though with a little more KSF red ghosting than the technique above. The KSF ghosting in NanoIPS is acceptable in CRT emulation use cases because it IS phosphor decay-based ghosting (Not normal strobe crosstalk), just like a slower red CRT phosphor. When made sufficiently faint, it’s a nonissue for 60Hz CRT emulator use cases.
Decay is the weak point of CRT motion, GtG transitions than go from light colors to dark colors has atrocious response time. My CRT has aproximately GtG 500ms from high glow white to black. Affect all RGB phosphors, not only red, trail is a grey scale. Of course KSF is not a problem coming from CRT in these transitions, is a massive improvement.

Manufacturer install this decay intentionally, to ensure low flicker intensity at 50-60Hz, for people specialy worried about this but than anyway want enjoy 50p 60p content almost without motion blur. Others CRT, like FD Trinitron tubes, use more short decay, maybe half. This is good for less trail, but with 50-60Hz flicker is more intense. So none solution is perfect for 60p without motion blur. Is a balance of flicker and trail. One imaginary CRT with 1ms decay, will fix trail but at cost of intensify flicker compared with FD Trinitron, like i suppose LCD even with rolling inevitably will show.

With Blue Phase LCD with true GtG 0.1ms + MiniLED FALD rolling + unlocked single strobe BlurBusters tuned, sound like we not need anymore CRT. This seems should be equal or better in all specs. Flicker/Trail balance is a preference, but both sucks. CRT seems never more manufactured, and even 1000Hz LCD emulating decay still the same issue, change smooth flicker with trail.

One of my favorite FPS games is DOOM 3 + mods, 60FPS locked game, i like play it with CRT at 2048x1536@60Hz, no motion blur, low flicker only noticed on light colors, no signal lag, no crosstalk, no overdrive artifacts, deep darks, high peak brightness in light colors, good static contrast, intense scares ;) but decay destroy the motion perfection :( In this type of dark games with glow lights is where CRT weak point becomes annoying. In others games goes unnoticed 99% of time, and the impulse display show its overkill raw speed.

Game developers never should set 60FPS cap, this should be forced by game engine developers, to ensure none game developer take the bad decision. They are condemning gamers to motion blur, or flicker, or trails. DOOM 3 engine have one cvar to unlock FPS, but accelerate all games events "tick rate", enemy speed, gravity, weapon firerate, etc... all doubled at 120FPS/Hz. Is needed another cvar to reduce game time /2 to compensate, than i not find it, maybe not exist.

I have one idea, extend "BlurBusters Approved" to games, cap never under 120FPS, software motion blur post process allways can be disabled, and so on.

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Re: Good News Everyone: 60Hz Single Strobe Options

Post by RonsonPL » 06 Nov 2020, 21:12

Quick 2 questions. As an owner of first XL2411Z, I went out of touch with this Benq series and many years have passed.
Are there mines in the naming or every 2411something is as good as the first XL2411Z models?
Tinkering in service menus or upgrading the firmware like in the old 2411 won't be a problem.

Can you use 120Hz mode on XL2411 when gaming on PS5 and Xbox X? If not, can you use it on 2420Z (displayport input)?


PS. Chief. The PM I sent you. I would've appreciated a response even if the answer is no. Meanwhile first 120fps games are being tested on consoles and sadly I see "up to 120Hz" popping up, which scares me, as I want to use strobed mode for all my gaming and strobed + sync is not yet a viable option for me. 100-110fps would be basically useless in my eyes.
We need the game devs to be aware single strobed gaming is a thing so they don't spoil the glorious 120Hz mode with "up to" or lack of motion blur toggle options.

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