120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

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Monstructs
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Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Post by Monstructs » 13 Sep 2021, 07:21

I found this thread while searching for a solution to my monitor sickness with my new LG C1 48” OLED. I’m coming from a 50” Samsung LED UN50H6350. I tuned the tv using setting from Rtings.com. Any advice @chief blur buster ?

I still have about 25 days to return the tv if necessary.

RonsonPL
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Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Post by RonsonPL » 13 Sep 2021, 16:01

Monstructs wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 07:21
I found this thread while searching for a solution to my monitor sickness with my new LG C1 48” OLED. I’m coming from a 50” Samsung LED UN50H6350. I tuned the tv using setting from Rtings.com. Any advice @chief blur buster ?

I still have about 25 days to return the tv if necessary.

Take a look at this:
https://youtu.be/Qtve0u3GJ9Y?t=815

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They say the image in motion is great. I don't know what you guys are doing wrong. Maybe you did not enable the "black frame insertion" low persistence mode?

Also, a guy from Digital Foundry, who a veteran who still uses CRTs at home, says the feature works great on OLED TVs.

(at least in terms of 2020 and 2021 LG OLED TV models)

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Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 14 Sep 2021, 22:55

Monstructs wrote:
13 Sep 2021, 07:21
I found this thread while searching for a solution to my monitor sickness with my new LG C1 48” OLED. I’m coming from a 50” Samsung LED UN50H6350. I tuned the tv using setting from Rtings.com. Any advice @chief blur buster ?

I still have about 25 days to return the tv if necessary.
What is your viewing distance? Increase/decrease and see if it affects things, same problem will occur with LCD too.

Make sure motion interpolation is disabled, and use a computer to test.

1. Test only 60fps material at 60Hz (BFI disabled)

2. Test only 120fps material at 120Hz (BFI disabled)

3. Test motion blur reduction (Black frame insertion) with framerate=Hz material, preferably with 120fps 120Hz

Do any of the above fix motion sickness?
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Clokwork
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Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Post by Clokwork » 21 Dec 2021, 06:52

Hello again!

Since the issue with the returned LG CX OLED, I have found that projection works for me. Particularly 3LCD. That takes care of the big screen, but I seem not to be able to use any current apple devices with displays. I cannot say for sure that FRC (temporal dithering) is the exact issue, but I do suspect it. I feel off even when there is a static image on the screen. At first I didn't know what to make of that, but with a still image, I assumed the only thing that could be occurring is flickering for color (temporal dithering).

I would love to find a way to test this theory. Possibly a stereo microscope on known "bad" devices. I would love to hear what you think.

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Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 22 Dec 2021, 10:50

Clokwork wrote:
21 Dec 2021, 06:52
Hello again!

Since the issue with the returned LG CX OLED, I have found that projection works for me. Particularly 3LCD. That takes care of the big screen, but I seem not to be able to use any current apple devices with displays. I cannot say for sure that FRC (temporal dithering) is the exact issue, but I do suspect it. I feel off even when there is a static image on the screen. At first I didn't know what to make of that, but with a still image, I assumed the only thing that could be occurring is flickering for color (temporal dithering).

I would love to find a way to test this theory. Possibly a stereo microscope on known "bad" devices. I would love to hear what you think.
3LCD projection is one of the most stable images possible for projection, yes -- no temporals on good 8-bit LCDs.

FRC and inversion flicker are some LCD temporals that may need to be measured.

There are some forums (LEDstrain.org etc). But be careful over there, since there's some legit information mixed in with assumptions / bad information. For example -- while some of them have mixed up terminology ("LCD inversion algorithm" versus "LCD inversion artifacts" are two completely different things that most people don't understand are different). All LCDs have inversion algorithms, but only some of them have LCD inversion artifacts.

Don't forget that inversion algorithms can also occur computer-side too, but there are some ways to disable it (e.g. NVIDIA temporal dithering)..

Eyestrain factors from these things are really, really hard to diagnose.
- LCD inversion artifacts (scrolling chessboard patterns, scrolling lines opatterns)
- Temporal dithering, monitor side
- Temporal dithering, GPU side
- Color spectrum issues (slight differences in blue primary, for example)
- Etc.
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Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Post by Clokwork » 22 Dec 2021, 16:15

Thank you immensely for your response. I am a member over there at ledstrain. I don't want to add any bad information over there as that community truly wants answers as do I.

You stated that Nvidia cards may have options to disable temporal dithering. I hope this is true. I contacted them and though I likely didn't get past tier 1 support, they made it seem as if it's not something that can be disabled. I have seen instances where people make registry changes, but I don't know if this is for checkerboard dithering or temporal.

I purposely bought a monitor that does not support temporal dithering. So far I haven't had any issues with it. One thing that concerns me is what does a monitor do with a GPU that uses temporal dithering? Which device ultimately controls what happens before it reaches the end user?

One idea I would like to implement is using a high speed camera with a microscope in an attempt detect temporal dithering. I am exploring this idea to determine if it is feasible.

Your input is invaluable and I appreciate your time.

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Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 25 Dec 2021, 22:47

Clokwork wrote:
22 Dec 2021, 16:15
Thank you immensely for your response. I am a member over there at ledstrain. I don't want to add any bad information over there as that community truly wants answers as do I.

You stated that Nvidia cards may have options to disable temporal dithering. I hope this is true. I contacted them and though I likely didn't get past tier 1 support, they made it seem as if it's not something that can be disabled. I have seen instances where people make registry changes, but I don't know if this is for checkerboard dithering or temporal.

I purposely bought a monitor that does not support temporal dithering. So far I haven't had any issues with it. One thing that concerns me is what does a monitor do with a GPU that uses temporal dithering? Which device ultimately controls what happens before it reaches the end user?
Either can.
A monitor cannot stop a GPU that does temporal dithering.
A GPU cannot stop a monitor that does temporal dithering.

Metaphorically (in a kind of way):
Temporal dithering is like a filter added to an image and you can't remove the filter.
The semantics of whether the GPU or monitor does it, is simply doing it earlier or doing it later.

However, at sufficient color depth by the GPU, the GPU no longer does temporal dithering.
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Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Post by Clokwork » 26 Dec 2021, 16:03

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
25 Dec 2021, 22:47

Either can.
A monitor cannot stop a GPU that does temporal dithering.
A GPU cannot stop a monitor that does temporal dithering.

Metaphorically (in a kind of way):
Temporal dithering is like a filter added to an image and you can't remove the filter.
The semantics of whether the GPU or monitor does it, is simply doing it earlier or doing it later.

However, at sufficient color depth by the GPU, the GPU no longer does temporal dithering.
That's the exact answer I was looking for. Good to know. The next challenge for me is to find out what profiles GPUs offer that won't use it. From my experience, Nvidia is not straight forward with this.

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Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Post by Clokwork » 31 Dec 2021, 04:52

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
22 Dec 2021, 10:50

3LCD projection is one of the most stable images possible for projection, yes -- no temporals on good 8-bit LCDs.
I wanted to revisit this as it hit me days later thinking about it. What does it mean to be a stable image? I currently have the Epson LS500. I am assuming the 3 panels are 8 bit panels, but they accept 10 bit. The product page states the following
Advanced HDR Processing
10-bit HDR3 processing accepting 100 percent of the source information to faithfully reproduce HDR content for an exceptional visual performance
Would I be correct in assuming that they are also utilizing temporal dithering or does 3LCD have a different way of handling color?

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Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 31 Dec 2021, 17:52

Clokwork wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 04:52
What does it mean to be a stable image?
Stable image as in no temporals (if bit depth is well matched) -- no temporal dithering, no flicker, no black frames.
Clokwork wrote:
31 Dec 2021, 04:52
Would I be correct in assuming that they are also utilizing temporal dithering or does 3LCD have a different way of handling color?
Yes, if the color depth is exceeding what the LCDs can handle, they will tend to do temporal dithering. It's much fainter than it is with DLP, since DLP temporals is binary (on-off) and LCD temporals is adjacent-color (e.g. 1/64th or 1/256th differences in brightnesses).

There may be other artifacts such as inversion artifacts (scrolling chessboard artifact or lines artifact) that are much more visible than temporal dithering.
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