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120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Posted: 03 Dec 2020, 15:11
by Clokwork
Coming from plasma (which I can use all day), I thought buying an OLED TV (LG CX55) would be a natural next step. I was severely wrong. I can’t pinpoint the issue. I did try custom motion settings and turning them off all together. RTINGS states this panel doesn’t use PWM, but doesn’t say specifically how it handles “brightness”. When a pixel in a plasma panel is excited, it’s more of a sin wave as it loses voltage. LED and OLED are square waves essentially. I wonder if this is my issue.

I’ve ran through these questions to see the differences.

- Could it be the fault of OLED? Well LG uses WOLED, but Apples (Samsung) panels, while different, give me no issue.

- is it the refresh rate? I don’t know. The iPad Pro supposedly uses 120Hz and I have no issues there.

- is it narrowed down to this tv? No. I returned it and bought a Samsung QLED (not OLED, I know) Q80 which also states 120Hz natively, but I still had issues viewing and gaming. The Samsung introduces PWM for what it’s worth.


My overall concern is that I can’t watch today’s 4K TVs. This is a stretch, but do you think reaching 1000hz some day will help with the issue?. Somehow make “more natural” as I see plasma?

I appreciate any input as this is a large concern to me.

Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Posted: 03 Dec 2020, 21:46
by AddictFPS
Plasma, like CRT, are impulse displays, based in flicker, with almost non existent motion blur. OLED, like LCD, is sample and hold, no flicker, maybe what bothers you is the motion blur.

You have tested Motion Pro settings ? CX have BFI (Black Frame Insertion) to reduce motion blur. Less brightness, but better motion smoothness, feels more clear and focused.

Image

Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Posted: 03 Dec 2020, 23:01
by Chief Blur Buster
Clokwork wrote:
03 Dec 2020, 15:11
- Could it be the fault of OLED? Well LG uses WOLED, but Apples (Samsung) panels, while different, give me no issue.
Do you still have access to the OLED?

I have a series of vision-testing exercises as there are more than 10 different causes, including causes other than PWM. Although PWM is definitely one of the causes, it often become an accidental red herring to a wild goose chase as an incorrect cause of some people (i.e. people thinking their problems was PWM, but it actually wasn't PWM).

As one example, you might be prone to motion blur nausea since OLED / LCD still has motion blur.

Did you ever test the OLED BFI feature?

I will be able to help you 100x faster if you can access an LG CX OLED as well as an LCD HDTV to do some motion tests, to see how your vision behaves with them.
Clokwork wrote:
03 Dec 2020, 15:11
My overall concern is that I can’t watch today’s 4K TVs.
All of them? You might have motion blur sickness.

Your assumed causes are almost assuredly 99% incorrect. But for me to help you diagnose your problem, will require me to step-by-step through various tests on a flexible TV, including a TV that supports a strobe-backlight or black-frame-insertion feature.
Clokwork wrote:
03 Dec 2020, 15:11
This is a stretch, but do you think reaching 1000hz some day will help with the issue?
Depends.
Clokwork wrote:
03 Dec 2020, 15:11
Somehow make “more natural” as I see plasma?
Like turning on max BFI setting on an OLED? Have you tested the max BFI setting on the CX OLED during framerate=Hz motion? It turns the OLED refreshing behavior more similar to a plasma (somewhat)

Interpolation = OFF
BFI = ON

(Remember not to confuse between the two!!!)

Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Posted: 04 Dec 2020, 01:26
by Clokwork
I unfortunately do not have the OLED anymore.

I did try quite a few combinations of motion settings including but not limited to IFS Expert settings, trumotion totally off, and default picture settings with them cranked. I would have thought while in game mode, with most of the bells and whistles off, I would be fine, but it didn’t help there either.

I tried different back light levels regarding brightness. I would say the brightness felt like a secondary issue to the motion sickness. Since it’s stated that PWM isn’t used on the OLED, turning the backlight down along with a warm picture setting did very slightly ease the ability to watch. Not anywhere near enough though.

I do have an older LCD 1080p tv from Sony (KDL-40V2500) that gives me no issue. It’s natively 60hz, doesn’t have dimming zones, and I believe uses a fluorescent bulb as a light source.

My apologies, I forgot that I had a few years old 4K tv (LG 60UH6035 ) in the basement that, while I haven’t watched extensively, doesn’t seem to give me any issues. This tv is actually LED, but no local dimming. Motion stuff turned off. This panel is also 60hz.


I just boxed up the Samsung Q80, but I still technically have it. QLED with 120Hz native. While the vertigo was nowhere near the levels of the OLED, especially with the motion settings off and a warm color temperature, I still couldn’t focus while gaming. The backlighting feels aggressive to me, but dimming the picture seemed to come at the cost of pertinent detail.
Have you tested the max BFI setting on the CX OLED during framerate=Hz motion? It turns the OLED refreshing behavior more similar to a plasma (somewhat)

Interpolation = OFF
BFI = ON
In IFS mode, either de-judder or de-blur was set to max while the other was at zero. I’m sorry that I cannot remember which. Is that to what you were referring?

On a side note, I’m very sensitive to the soap opera effect.

I truly, truly appreciate the help here.

Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Posted: 04 Dec 2020, 01:44
by Chief Blur Buster
Clokwork wrote:
04 Dec 2020, 01:26
My apologies, I forgot that I had a few years old 4K tv (LG 60UH6035 ) in the basement that, while I haven’t watched extensively, doesn’t seem to give me any issues. This tv is actually LED, but no local dimming. Motion stuff turned off. This panel is also 60hz.

I just boxed up the Samsung Q80, but I still technically have it. QLED with 120Hz native. While the vertigo was nowhere near the levels of the OLED, especially with the motion settings off and a warm color temperature, I still couldn’t focus while gaming. The backlighting feels aggressive to me, but dimming the picture seemed to come at the cost of pertinent detail.
It might be a color spectrum issue. Hard to tell without further tests -- everybody sees differently. But it seems like certain LEDs is causing major problems.

You stated that Plasmas don't bother you. I presume that extends to CRTs as well.

Does any Apple LCDs bother you? Apple iPads, laptops?

On the SAME display, does 120Hz motion bother you more than 60Hz motion?

You might also be prone to the nausea uncanny valley effect that I've discovered afflicts some people in regards to the HFR effect -- www.blurbusters.com/ultrahfr .... Whereas that 120Hz sample-and-hold is smooth but still has too much motion blur. The SOE is where motion is smooth but not motion-deblurred to compensate (e.g. Like 24fps motion that's turned to 120fps but still has the original 24fps motionblur -- feels unnatural).

Displays are getting bigger and brighter, and sometimes those enroaches the issues -- are your modern displays much bigger than the older displays? Have you tried sitting further back to maintain similar FOV (vision coverage)?

If this is true, you might need a display roughly along the lines:
(A) Reduced blue spike (like the older fluorescent and certain LED-backlights, and the low-blue-light seemed to help a bit)
(B) Low persistence seems to help you too (CRT/Plasma) but as long as it's soft phosphor-like strobe

What's your computer monitor / laptop / tablet / VR experience? How does your eyes react to these? Also, have you ever tried any in-VR big screen theaters (like the Netflix/Prime/YouTube app on Oculus Quest 2?).

It's hard to find a modern display that roughly follows this type of effect. Displays are inherently imperfect windows of real world.

Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Posted: 04 Dec 2020, 13:43
by Clokwork
You stated that Plasmas don't bother you. I presume that extends to CRTs as well.
This is true. I have zero issues with CRT and any bulb lit screen.
Does any Apple LCDs bother you? Apple iPads, laptops?
On the SAME display, does 120Hz motion bother you more than 60Hz motion?
None of my apple displays bother me. iPad Pro claims 120hz (not sure if it's on all the time), but no issues. iPhone and MacBook Pro don't bother me either.


You might also be prone to the nausea uncanny valley effect that I've discovered afflicts some people in regards to the HFR effect -- www.blurbusters.com/ultrahfr .... Whereas that 120Hz sample-and-hold is smooth but still has too much motion blur. The SOE is where motion is smooth but not motion-deblurred to compensate (e.g. Like 24fps motion that's turned to 120fps but still has the original 24fps motionblur -- feels unnatural).


What you coined "Blur Busters Law Is Also a Vicious Cycle" makes me think. Now that I am looking at 4K as compared to my 1080p screens, are the effects more pronounced?
Displays are getting bigger and brighter, and sometimes those enroaches the issues -- are your modern displays much bigger than the older displays? Have you tried sitting further back to maintain similar FOV (vision coverage)?
I tend to buy the same screen size for every room which is 55 inches. I do agree that the newer panels are much brighter.
If this is true, you might need a display roughly along the lines:
(A) Reduced blue spike (like the older fluorescent and certain LED-backlights, and the low-blue-light seemed to help a bit)
(B) Low persistence seems to help you too (CRT/Plasma) but as long as it's soft phosphor-like strobe
I was coming to a similar conclusion yesterday too, thinking that the backlight type and/or intensity is the main culprit. OLED seemed so piercing as did the QLED. There was no "softness" to the image. I know that's a very relative term.
What's your computer monitor / laptop / tablet / VR experience? How does your eyes react to these? Also, have you ever tried any in-VR big screen theaters (like the Netflix/Prime/YouTube app on Oculus Quest 2?).
I have not used VR yet as I am scared of the Vertigo. Putting the cart before the horse I guess.
It's hard to find a modern display that roughly follows this type of effect. Displays are inherently imperfect windows of real world.
This is what really scares me. Should the display type I need go away I will have no way of looking at TVs/monitors without some nasty side effects. This is what triggers my anxiety pretty badly (and has plagued me this week).

Back in 2013 when I was shopping for a TV and ended up with the plasma, I remember going to the Sony store (long gone) and I tried 2 of their higher end (1080p) TVs. I can't remember the backlight method, but they were LED. I had to return both as they were eye searing at night and just overall hard to look at, even with their fake frame rate upscaling turned off. While I knew nothing about plasma at the time and didn't want to spend that much money, I immediately noticed I had no issues viewing it in store.

Over the years (since the 2000s), I went from:

DLP TV > DLP TV > Sony LCD (fluorescent) > Panasonic Plasma (LG LED 4K in basement years later)

So I see your point about the lighting.

My best guess, when I return the QLED is to try the LG 55UN7000 as it seems to be a successor to the current LG in the basement. I believe it has the same backlight type. I just hope the LEDs are similar.

Again, you have been a real help to me. I appreciate the data and new information you've brought to the table.

Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Posted: 06 Dec 2020, 19:00
by Clokwork
I gave this some seat time and I think I have come to two conclusions.

1). All 4K TVs make it hard for me to focus on the screen no matter the settings. Doesn’t matter if it’s 60hz or 120hz. Motion settings haven’t made a difference. They can worsen the effect though.

2). All known non-problematic TVs are either plasma or of fluorescent backlight.

This is a terrible problem to have as HD TVs are being phased out. I wonder if this has a lot to do with your writing 1000hz-journey#viciouscycle
If much higher frame rates fix my issue, at least I can look to the distant future.

I’m going to have to buy every plasma I see to try and last me.... :(

Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Posted: 07 Dec 2020, 00:23
by Chief Blur Buster
Clokwork wrote:
04 Dec 2020, 13:43
I have not used VR yet as I am scared of the Vertigo. Putting the cart before the horse I guess.
Umm, this is year 2020, not year 2015...

The Oculus Store has a comfort rating for each game. The green-circle "Comfortable" rated ones, the yellow-square "Moderate" rated ones, and the orange-diamond "Extreme" rated ones.

Proper 6degrees-of-freedom in "Comfortable"-rated VR apps, have near-perfect 1:1 vertigo sync between VR world and real world; which helps greatly reduce vertigo. It's the "Moderate" and "Extreme" rated apps that will have vertigo risk.

The "Comfortable" rated applications on Oculus Store are literally 100x less vertigo than 3D cinema (Real3D). As of this moment, modern proper dedicated (not "Google Cardboard") and/or standalone VR 3D is light years more comfortable (and Star Trek Holodeck-like) than any fake-3D you have ever seen in a movie cinema. You simply avoid those roller coaster apps and download those virtual vacation apps such as "Alcove" and simple apps such as "First Contact" or things like "Netflix". When you run the "Netflix" app on Quest 2, you're sitting stationary in a virtual sofa in a virtual living room, staring to a virtual 100 inch television set. Even though you're sitting on a different chair in real life (or even car backseat/train seat). You're simply teleported to a different location /visually/.

Surprisingly, my experience is that 50% of Oculus Quest 2 users are not gamers; but are actually people such as people in hospitals and retirement homes. A non-gamer insta-purchased it after seeing my Quest 2, when listening to music with virtual ocean (Alcove app, with view set to "Ocean"). Correct VR app selection avoids vertigo -- how harmful is sitting in a virtual patio chair next to a virtual ocean and virtual fireplace, just staring around without moving around? The next generation VR is so vastly easier to set up -- I can mail an Oculus Quest 2 to anybody in a Covid-locked-down retirement home, and it's now finally easy autoconfigure enough for most iPad/email-experienced 70 years old to set up. Yesterday's 2015 VR and prior was a complex advanced user affair but 2020 VR in the form of Quest 2 is so easy that any non-geek can now set it up with an easy in-VR step by step wizard. The most complex step is entering the WiFi password but if I am saying that is merely the hardest part (WiFi password), then that's a compliment to how much easier 2020-era high quality standalone VR is now.

It's not as complex as circa 2015 VR was, and the VR app ecosystem is much more mature now than it was in year 2015. No sensors needed, no wires needed. It even automatically detects the room it is in, and brings up a Holodeck-style blue wall grid if you walk too close to walls or coffeetable, allowing you to safely step backwards. (You can even setup a new RoomScale in just 10 seconds in any random guest room). So no worries about stubbing your toe or hitting your head like much of yesterday's more-primitive VR.

Just don't download the rollercoaster apps or other "Extreme" rated apps, and you won't have vertigo issues with modern 2020s-era RoomScale VR, especially the new quick-easy setup models (Quest 2).

Some of the 2D video streaming apps (avoid the 360-degree videos if you have extreme vertigo sensitivity) are just like sitting in a real theater or real living room. You actually tilt your head down, stare down and see a virtual theater seat and virtual cupholder. Except you're sitting at home, or in a kitchen chair, or airplane seat, or car backseat.

It is not a 100% problemsolver for everybody, but for a person of your motion blur sensitivity nature. But.... Quest 2 has some of the best low persistence (0.3ms MPRT) you can buy for $300 -- the cost of a gaming monitor -- and you can even treat Quest 2 like a motion blur reduction gaming monitor (60Hz, 72Hz, 80Hz and 90Hz single-strobe). Switch your PC to the same refresh rate as Virtual Desktop, and play your 2D PC game in VR, with a virtual PC monitor in VR. Even one of the Virtual Desktop themes is just a virtual computer room with a virtual computer chair, to help you stay grounded.

Oh, and.... the near-perfect 1:1 vertigo sync means you can lean over to look under a virtual computer desk, and see the bottom of the virtual computer desk. Or even lean forward and see the rear of the virtual gaming monitor -- natural head tilt and leaning motions -- made possible by 6dof (six degrees of freedom).

So, it is definitely an option on the table. Unconventional as it may be; but Quest 2 is quite revolutionary in what it's able to do (double as a gaming monitor, double as a PCVR streamer, double as a standalone VR, double as a low-persistence CRT style streaming display)

It is quite possible that Oculus is not your fix, but since there are so many causes (including motion blur sickness), and you've indicated you had no problems with CRT or plasma. This leads me to think that Quest 2 (one of the best CRT emulators on the market for under $300), might potentially, in theory, be your option -- provided you only stick to Comfortable-rated apps and/or treat it as a virtual monitor (instead of a rollercoaster ride), with a virtual screen in front of you in virtual space.

In theory, you can even ignore VR; with Virtual Desktop (and the Oculus controller ability to emulate gamepads), the Quest 2 is one kick-ass desktop gaming monitor for your PC, and it's also a good way to get low-persistence Cyberpunk 2077 (1080p 60Hz/72Hz/7Hz/90Hz single-strobe CRT low-persistence)

Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Posted: 07 Dec 2020, 00:40
by Chief Blur Buster
Clokwork wrote:
06 Dec 2020, 19:00
This is a terrible problem to have as HD TVs are being phased out. I wonder if this has a lot to do with your writing https://www.blurbusters.com/1000hz-journey#viciouscycle
The motion blur yo-yo effect is definitely amplified at 4K and 8K -- whereas you've got sudden clarity differences between stationary images (even more stunning spatial resolution) and moving images (still crappy temporal resolution). So yes, this is possible.

You can use most 4K TVs as 1080p TVs, simply by forcing your video sources to 1080p. Try using a lower computer resolution, like 1280x720 and seeing if 4K TVs look more comfortable to you.

The motion blur yo-yo effect is one known cause of motion sickness, and a common cause of soap opera effect (improved motion smoothness without any decreases to source-based motion blur). Sadly, your affliction is real, but there are potentially several more solutions.

This is not usually a problem for 24fps as framerate is low enough to not be smooth. But as soon as you are high frame rate, things look smooth but are still prone to motion blur. 60fps and HFR with heavy blur yoyo effects (thanks to higher resolutions with no improving temporal resolution) can be nauseating, even to me, but some people have rather severe afflictions of this.

Do you get bothered just staring at stationary images? Or only moving images?
Clokwork wrote:
06 Dec 2020, 19:00
If much higher frame rates fix my issue, at least I can look to the distant future.
Clokwork wrote:
06 Dec 2020, 19:00
I’m going to have to buy every plasma I see to try and last me.... :(
Actually I don't think this is necessarily your fate. I've seen thousands of displays at conventions and some of them have quite interesting different looks. There are many potential unturned stones.

1. Have you ever tried a 1ms MPRT strobe backlight during framerate=Hz motion? This has 1/4th the motion blur of most of the best LCD/OLED HDTVs, more than 15x less motion blur than a non-strobed 60Hz LCD. Many gaming monitors massively outperform larger TVs in motion blur reduction abilities nowadays, which is a conundrum.

2. Have you ever tried visiting a convention with thousands of displays and testing your eyes on them? Even if only 20 displays pass, it could be a worthwhile exercise to visit a future CES (2022, after COVID vaccine) or some other display-focussed convention.

3. Have you ever tested a virtual theater in low-persistence VR?

4. Have you ever tried going away from cookie-cutter Best Buy, and instead visited left-field places like a videophile home theater store and/or visited an Apple store? To see if some of the other displays are comfortable to your eyes? Some of those premium displays use dramatically different LED backlights than many common TVs too as well.

5. Have you ever tried multile projector technologies:
- DLP technology (1-chip and 3-chip)
- LCOS technology (JVC DILA, Sony SXRD)
- Different light sources (HID, LED, laser)

6. Have tried an ISF calibrated TV at reduced brightness? (~120 lumens)
Many modern TVs are calibrate too bright, and HDR can be turned off if you are brightness sensitive.

I realize in this COVID era, it is a bit difficult (for the near term), but this will become increasingly easier as 2021-2022 moves onwards. And some places, such as Amazon, you can try out a Quest 2. Worse comes to worse, other family members want to play Quest 2 anyway or maybe Grandma in the covid-locked retirement home might be profusely thankful for letting her do a beachfront vacation for the last time in her life...

Re: 120 Hz OLED TV and Vertigo/motion sickness

Posted: 07 Dec 2020, 08:46
by Clokwork
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
07 Dec 2020, 00:23
Clokwork wrote:
04 Dec 2020, 13:43
I have not used VR yet as I am scared of the Vertigo. Putting the cart before the horse I guess.
Umm, this is year 2020, not year 2015...
My apologies. This wasn’t a shot at you, but at me. By saying that, I meant I was doing things out of order. I should have tried VR by now.

I will take all of your feedback seriously and definitely look into getting a headset to try this out. I will be looking into projectors as well since that seems like another viable option. If I can get to CES 2022, that would be awesome!

Your input has been invaluable. I mean that.