Any word on spectrum eve VRR Strobe tuning?

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Re: Any word on spectrum eve VRR Strobe tuning?

Post by Discorz » 10 Dec 2021, 07:19

liquidshadowfox wrote:
08 Dec 2021, 19:21
Even though ES07D02 will be well tuned strobe wise, the biggest turn-off for me would be slow KSF phosphor because it can't really be removed. So be warned. At highest refresh rates it might look ok (in the middle), but as it decreases red trail will be more noticeable (with less crosstalk).
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Re: Any word on spectrum eve VRR Strobe tuning?

Post by liquidshadowfox » 10 Dec 2021, 09:45

I used to use those funky 3D glasses when I was a kid (the one where one was red and the other was blue) to simulate 3D so I'm expecting worse red ghosting to that. Honestly as long as the image looks CLEAR I don't care about the red ghosting. I was youtube videos of the eve spectrum 4k @ 144 with backlight strobing and it looks GREAT at 144 hz so I assume it'll look even BETTER on the eve spectrum 240 hz at the same 144 hz if it's QFT aware. I don't plan on playing below 120 hz (unless I play dark souls 1 or 2 since those are locked to 60 fps and I don't play retro games).

I know youtube compression and not seeing with your own eyes is a big thing but just look at this thing on youtube
-without backlight strobing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bPnBY4 ... Q&index=13
-with backlight strobing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64y-raJ ... Q&index=14

I took a video of my Asus XG27AQM with elmb sync and eve spectrum looks way better (I know eve is using fixed single strobe at 144 hz) but if eve can replicate that performance between 100 hz - 200 hz on the QHD monitor I really think it's going to be MILES better than any other VRR implementation out there and as mentioned by the chief himself, this IS a high color gamut display so it's something nice to look forward to :)

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Re: Any word on spectrum eve VRR Strobe tuning?

Post by liquidshadowfox » 10 Dec 2021, 10:44

Discorz wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 06:58
It really is great to see Blur Busters growing. I hope you'll do tuning for more manufacturers like ASUS, LG, Acer... Because who ever does their tuning, I think we would all agree, does a rather poor job. I wonder what those other 2 are.

Interestingly I haven't seen any mention of Blur Busters own variable overdrive without module. Which should be easily doable. It's probably just programmed current refresh rate awareness so it could automatically toggle between different overdrive levels when needed. Something like what Gigabyte's does with their Smart OD. Unfortunately they decided to pop in with aggressive amount in the middle of refresh range which looks bad. That feature is amazing it just needs to be done right. I'm not sure if implementing this adds some stutter to overdrive toggle.
I saw someone implement VRR using a DCC program they wrote and it change the OD pretty fast (not instant but fast enough imo for regular Gsync usage) and I'd say even an implementation that changes to OD based on current avg fps is better than no changing OD at all since most of us are using riva to get consistent frame rates. For example:

I play dark souls 1, I'd like the OD to change automatically and at least stay locked to the lowest OD that works for 60 fps gaming
I play league of legends, I'd want the OD to change auto to the highest possible without introducing ghosting for 240 fps gaming

^ the above solution isn't perfect but it's better than having to manually change the OD in the panel settings everytime you change games.

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Re: Any word on spectrum eve VRR Strobe tuning?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 10 Dec 2021, 16:42

liquidshadowfox wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 10:44
I saw someone implement VRR using a DCC program they wrote and it change the OD pretty fast (not instant but fast enough imo for regular Gsync usage) and I'd say even an implementation that changes to OD based on current avg fps is better than no changing OD at all since most of us are using riva to get consistent frame rates. For example:
It's pretty cool to implement dynamic overdrive via DDC. It works if the framerate varies slow enough. It won't react fast enough to sudden framerate changes (e.g. sudden flickers of ghosting/coronas when the ideal OD lags behind the frametimes).

It also reveals the sad situation of how terrible existing non-dynamic generic Adaptive Sync can be at times -- to the point that even imperfect realtime OD (via software that realtime hidden-adjusts the monitor menus mid-game as framerate fluctuates) is an improvement.
Discorz wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 07:19
liquidshadowfox wrote:
08 Dec 2021, 19:21
Even though ES07D02 will be well tuned strobe wise, the biggest turn-off for me would be slow KSF phosphor because it can't really be removed. So be warned. At highest refresh rates it might look ok (in the middle), but as it decreases red trail will be more noticeable (with less crosstalk).
That said, KSF phosphor has been exaggerated in a scare for many. Partially my fault, but I have to set some realistic expectations-setting.

Many people who are used to plasma displays, say the KSF phosphor ghosts less than a plasma TV. That's enough for some people.

It may not meet the criteria of zero-crosstalk and near-zero-crosstalk snobs (Quest2 VR, XG2431, LightBoost, BenQ Large VTs, etc), but if you measure it against all strobed implementations, it's probably in the top 25% of lowest-artifacts strobing (all strobed LCD motion artifacts like crosstalk or ghosting). If KSF was gone, it'd probably easily rank the top 5%. But it is what it is.

Also, some plasma users say the KSF ghosting feels better than strobe crosstalk, because they like the "analog feel" of this specific artifact, because KSF ghosting has an analogfeel like a CRT tube's slight color fringing effect. So Eve 4K 144 probably makes a fantastic arcade cabinet panel because it's a CRT-like/plasma-like artifact, rather than a digital LCD artifact. CRT tubes ghosts green, plasmas ghosts yellow, and KSF ghosts red. It also slightly softens the harshness of squarewave strobing, because the phosphor fade soften the sudden on/off cycles of a backlight strobe. So it's a double-edged sword with some unexpected analogesque benefit (like enabling a CRT scanlines filter to blurry-up your square pixels into something more emulating a CRT tube).
liquidshadowfox wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 09:45
I took a video of my Asus XG27AQM with elmb sync and eve spectrum looks way better (I know eve is using fixed single strobe at 144 hz) but if eve can replicate that performance between 100 hz - 200 hz on the QHD monitor I really think it's going to be MILES better than any other VRR implementation out there and as mentioned by the chief himself, this IS a high color gamut display so it's something nice to look forward to :)
Thanks for the compliment about my strobe tuning on the Eve!

In fact I think I did so good a job, that the KSF ghosts less than the crosstalk on many non-KSF panels.

To help aid in expectations-setting -- I actually made a minor edit to www.blurbusters.com/red-phosphor to mention that KSF ghosting of a well-tuned panel is not as bad as plasma ghosting. This is to help set expectations that KSF ghosting is somewhere between "CRT ghosting" (faint green ghosts on black backgrounds) and "Plasma ghosting" (much more visible yellow ghost trails on black backgrounds)
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Re: Any word on spectrum eve VRR Strobe tuning?

Post by liquidshadowfox » 10 Dec 2021, 19:49

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 16:42
Thanks for the compliment about my strobe tuning on the Eve!

In fact I think I did so good a job, that the KSF ghosts less than the crosstalk on many non-KSF panels.

To help aid in expectations-setting -- I actually made a minor edit to www.blurbusters.com/red-phosphor to mention that KSF ghosting of a well-tuned panel is not as bad as plasma ghosting. This is to help set expectations that KSF ghosting is somewhere between "CRT ghosting" (faint green ghosts on black backgrounds) and "Plasma ghosting" (much more visible yellow ghost trails on black backgrounds)
Trust me when I say you did a REALLY good job if that video above is any indication Chief, I only hope I get similar results with the QHD 240 hz model if it releases AND if you actually implement the Strobe + VRR + QFT with the additional headroom, that panel is going to be magic! and in my opinion one of the best strobed QHD monitors on the market!

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Re: Any word on spectrum eve VRR Strobe tuning?

Post by liquidshadowfox » 16 Dec 2021, 01:13

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 16:42
liquidshadowfox wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 10:44
I saw someone implement VRR using a DCC program they wrote and it change the OD pretty fast (not instant but fast enough imo for regular Gsync usage) and I'd say even an implementation that changes to OD based on current avg fps is better than no changing OD at all since most of us are using riva to get consistent frame rates. For example:
It's pretty cool to implement dynamic overdrive via DDC. It works if the framerate varies slow enough. It won't react fast enough to sudden framerate changes (e.g. sudden flickers of ghosting/coronas when the ideal OD lags behind the frametimes).

It also reveals the sad situation of how terrible existing non-dynamic generic Adaptive Sync can be at times -- to the point that even imperfect realtime OD (via software that realtime hidden-adjusts the monitor menus mid-game as framerate fluctuates) is an improvement.
Discorz wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 07:19
liquidshadowfox wrote:
08 Dec 2021, 19:21
Even though ES07D02 will be well tuned strobe wise, the biggest turn-off for me would be slow KSF phosphor because it can't really be removed. So be warned. At highest refresh rates it might look ok (in the middle), but as it decreases red trail will be more noticeable (with less crosstalk).
That said, KSF phosphor has been exaggerated in a scare for many. Partially my fault, but I have to set some realistic expectations-setting.

Many people who are used to plasma displays, say the KSF phosphor ghosts less than a plasma TV. That's enough for some people.

It may not meet the criteria of zero-crosstalk and near-zero-crosstalk snobs (Quest2 VR, XG2431, LightBoost, BenQ Large VTs, etc), but if you measure it against all strobed implementations, it's probably in the top 25% of lowest-artifacts strobing (all strobed LCD motion artifacts like crosstalk or ghosting). If KSF was gone, it'd probably easily rank the top 5%. But it is what it is.

Also, some plasma users say the KSF ghosting feels better than strobe crosstalk, because they like the "analog feel" of this specific artifact, because KSF ghosting has an analogfeel like a CRT tube's slight color fringing effect. So Eve 4K 144 probably makes a fantastic arcade cabinet panel because it's a CRT-like/plasma-like artifact, rather than a digital LCD artifact. CRT tubes ghosts green, plasmas ghosts yellow, and KSF ghosts red. It also slightly softens the harshness of squarewave strobing, because the phosphor fade soften the sudden on/off cycles of a backlight strobe. So it's a double-edged sword with some unexpected analogesque benefit (like enabling a CRT scanlines filter to blurry-up your square pixels into something more emulating a CRT tube).
liquidshadowfox wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 09:45
I took a video of my Asus XG27AQM with elmb sync and eve spectrum looks way better (I know eve is using fixed single strobe at 144 hz) but if eve can replicate that performance between 100 hz - 200 hz on the QHD monitor I really think it's going to be MILES better than any other VRR implementation out there and as mentioned by the chief himself, this IS a high color gamut display so it's something nice to look forward to :)
Thanks for the compliment about my strobe tuning on the Eve!

In fact I think I did so good a job, that the KSF ghosts less than the crosstalk on many non-KSF panels.

To help aid in expectations-setting -- I actually made a minor edit to www.blurbusters.com/red-phosphor to mention that KSF ghosting of a well-tuned panel is not as bad as plasma ghosting. This is to help set expectations that KSF ghosting is somewhere between "CRT ghosting" (faint green ghosts on black backgrounds) and "Plasma ghosting" (much more visible yellow ghost trails on black backgrounds)
Another question about this specific part
"It may not meet the criteria of zero-crosstalk and near-zero-crosstalk snobs (Quest2 VR, XG2431, LightBoost, BenQ Large VTs, etc), but if you measure it against all strobed implementations, it's probably in the top 25% of lowest-artifacts strobing (all strobed LCD motion artifacts like crosstalk or ghosting). If KSF was gone, it'd probably easily rank the top 5%. But it is what it is."

Do you think it's in the top 10% of all QHD 240 hz monitors? I don't think I've seen a good VRR strobed QHD panel (all blur buster approved panels are unfortunately 1080p). I guess I'll have to wait until it gets released.... I heard they are starting to get samples of the 240 hz now chief AND it looks like the panel was delayed again because LG decided to double the number of local dimming zones from 16 to 32 (which I don't think will really change anything for strobing quality). I don't even think it's remotely possible to do strobed HDR content tbh, that would be really interesting to see however considering I've never heard or seen anything about such a thing.

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Re: Any word on spectrum eve VRR Strobe tuning?

Post by liquidshadowfox » 20 Dec 2021, 07:28

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 16:42
liquidshadowfox wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 10:44
I saw someone implement VRR using a DCC program they wrote and it change the OD pretty fast (not instant but fast enough imo for regular Gsync usage) and I'd say even an implementation that changes to OD based on current avg fps is better than no changing OD at all since most of us are using riva to get consistent frame rates. For example:
It's pretty cool to implement dynamic overdrive via DDC. It works if the framerate varies slow enough. It won't react fast enough to sudden framerate changes (e.g. sudden flickers of ghosting/coronas when the ideal OD lags behind the frametimes).

It also reveals the sad situation of how terrible existing non-dynamic generic Adaptive Sync can be at times -- to the point that even imperfect realtime OD (via software that realtime hidden-adjusts the monitor menus mid-game as framerate fluctuates) is an improvement.
Discorz wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 07:19
liquidshadowfox wrote:
08 Dec 2021, 19:21
Even though ES07D02 will be well tuned strobe wise, the biggest turn-off for me would be slow KSF phosphor because it can't really be removed. So be warned. At highest refresh rates it might look ok (in the middle), but as it decreases red trail will be more noticeable (with less crosstalk).
That said, KSF phosphor has been exaggerated in a scare for many. Partially my fault, but I have to set some realistic expectations-setting.

Many people who are used to plasma displays, say the KSF phosphor ghosts less than a plasma TV. That's enough for some people.

It may not meet the criteria of zero-crosstalk and near-zero-crosstalk snobs (Quest2 VR, XG2431, LightBoost, BenQ Large VTs, etc), but if you measure it against all strobed implementations, it's probably in the top 25% of lowest-artifacts strobing (all strobed LCD motion artifacts like crosstalk or ghosting). If KSF was gone, it'd probably easily rank the top 5%. But it is what it is.

Also, some plasma users say the KSF ghosting feels better than strobe crosstalk, because they like the "analog feel" of this specific artifact, because KSF ghosting has an analogfeel like a CRT tube's slight color fringing effect. So Eve 4K 144 probably makes a fantastic arcade cabinet panel because it's a CRT-like/plasma-like artifact, rather than a digital LCD artifact. CRT tubes ghosts green, plasmas ghosts yellow, and KSF ghosts red. It also slightly softens the harshness of squarewave strobing, because the phosphor fade soften the sudden on/off cycles of a backlight strobe. So it's a double-edged sword with some unexpected analogesque benefit (like enabling a CRT scanlines filter to blurry-up your square pixels into something more emulating a CRT tube).
liquidshadowfox wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 09:45
I took a video of my Asus XG27AQM with elmb sync and eve spectrum looks way better (I know eve is using fixed single strobe at 144 hz) but if eve can replicate that performance between 100 hz - 200 hz on the QHD monitor I really think it's going to be MILES better than any other VRR implementation out there and as mentioned by the chief himself, this IS a high color gamut display so it's something nice to look forward to :)
Thanks for the compliment about my strobe tuning on the Eve!

In fact I think I did so good a job, that the KSF ghosts less than the crosstalk on many non-KSF panels.

To help aid in expectations-setting -- I actually made a minor edit to www.blurbusters.com/red-phosphor to mention that KSF ghosting of a well-tuned panel is not as bad as plasma ghosting. This is to help set expectations that KSF ghosting is somewhere between "CRT ghosting" (faint green ghosts on black backgrounds) and "Plasma ghosting" (much more visible yellow ghost trails on black backgrounds)
Excited to see what happens to eve spectrum monitor :) I heard they doubled the local dimming to 32 zones and they might be able to overclock the panel to 280 hz. Might give us some nice QFT headroom for lower crosstalk assuming the VRR + strobing tuning actually happens successfully.

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Re: Any word on spectrum eve VRR Strobe tuning?

Post by liquidshadowfox » 14 Jan 2022, 16:45

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 16:42
liquidshadowfox wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 10:44
I saw someone implement VRR using a DCC program they wrote and it change the OD pretty fast (not instant but fast enough imo for regular Gsync usage) and I'd say even an implementation that changes to OD based on current avg fps is better than no changing OD at all since most of us are using riva to get consistent frame rates. For example:
It's pretty cool to implement dynamic overdrive via DDC. It works if the framerate varies slow enough. It won't react fast enough to sudden framerate changes (e.g. sudden flickers of ghosting/coronas when the ideal OD lags behind the frametimes).

It also reveals the sad situation of how terrible existing non-dynamic generic Adaptive Sync can be at times -- to the point that even imperfect realtime OD (via software that realtime hidden-adjusts the monitor menus mid-game as framerate fluctuates) is an improvement.
Discorz wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 07:19
liquidshadowfox wrote:
08 Dec 2021, 19:21
Even though ES07D02 will be well tuned strobe wise, the biggest turn-off for me would be slow KSF phosphor because it can't really be removed. So be warned. At highest refresh rates it might look ok (in the middle), but as it decreases red trail will be more noticeable (with less crosstalk).
That said, KSF phosphor has been exaggerated in a scare for many. Partially my fault, but I have to set some realistic expectations-setting.

Many people who are used to plasma displays, say the KSF phosphor ghosts less than a plasma TV. That's enough for some people.

It may not meet the criteria of zero-crosstalk and near-zero-crosstalk snobs (Quest2 VR, XG2431, LightBoost, BenQ Large VTs, etc), but if you measure it against all strobed implementations, it's probably in the top 25% of lowest-artifacts strobing (all strobed LCD motion artifacts like crosstalk or ghosting). If KSF was gone, it'd probably easily rank the top 5%. But it is what it is.

Also, some plasma users say the KSF ghosting feels better than strobe crosstalk, because they like the "analog feel" of this specific artifact, because KSF ghosting has an analogfeel like a CRT tube's slight color fringing effect. So Eve 4K 144 probably makes a fantastic arcade cabinet panel because it's a CRT-like/plasma-like artifact, rather than a digital LCD artifact. CRT tubes ghosts green, plasmas ghosts yellow, and KSF ghosts red. It also slightly softens the harshness of squarewave strobing, because the phosphor fade soften the sudden on/off cycles of a backlight strobe. So it's a double-edged sword with some unexpected analogesque benefit (like enabling a CRT scanlines filter to blurry-up your square pixels into something more emulating a CRT tube).
liquidshadowfox wrote:
10 Dec 2021, 09:45
I took a video of my Asus XG27AQM with elmb sync and eve spectrum looks way better (I know eve is using fixed single strobe at 144 hz) but if eve can replicate that performance between 100 hz - 200 hz on the QHD monitor I really think it's going to be MILES better than any other VRR implementation out there and as mentioned by the chief himself, this IS a high color gamut display so it's something nice to look forward to :)
Thanks for the compliment about my strobe tuning on the Eve!

In fact I think I did so good a job, that the KSF ghosts less than the crosstalk on many non-KSF panels.

To help aid in expectations-setting -- I actually made a minor edit to www.blurbusters.com/red-phosphor to mention that KSF ghosting of a well-tuned panel is not as bad as plasma ghosting. This is to help set expectations that KSF ghosting is somewhere between "CRT ghosting" (faint green ghosts on black backgrounds) and "Plasma ghosting" (much more visible yellow ghost trails on black backgrounds)
Any updates on the VRR + backlight strobe tuning yet? :)

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Re: Any word on spectrum eve VRR Strobe tuning?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 26 Jan 2022, 15:30

liquidshadowfox wrote:
14 Jan 2022, 16:45
Any updates on the VRR + backlight strobe tuning yet? :)
No updates yet.
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  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
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Re: Any word on spectrum eve VRR Strobe tuning?

Post by liquidshadowfox » 01 Mar 2022, 08:13

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
26 Jan 2022, 15:30
liquidshadowfox wrote:
14 Jan 2022, 16:45
Any updates on the VRR + backlight strobe tuning yet? :)
No updates yet.
Any updates on this Chief? :)

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