Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or GSYNC

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CrunchyBiscuit
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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or GSYNC

Post by CrunchyBiscuit » 21 May 2023, 12:24

bumbeen wrote:
20 May 2023, 22:55
any type of mouse smoothing interpolation implies adding a delay. at 125hz that's a full 8ms. any game will be better off with a higher polling rate as the game will have more recent information to incorporate into the next drawn frame. At 125hz, sometimes the mouse input will occur right at the perfect moment to give the game the latest data, but sometimes it will occur at the worst possible time and barely miss, meaning the frame is 8ms behind. assuming perfect frame timing, at 60fps, the next frame will suddenly have mouse input just before the frame so the mouse will suddenly teleport 8ms ahead of where it was on the previous frame. at 1000hz, the mouse will always provide input <2ms from frame generation. It seems like the focus should be on trying to determine why you see this 1000hz microstuttering and solving that rather than adding an additional 8ms of delay on top of the already 8ms of delay that happens intermittently at 125hz
Yes, I know, but I don't care. It's just about smoothness in single player games, not competitive ones. And I'm not trying to set it at 125Hz, but rather half of it (62.5Hz), and then setting this monitor to 62.5Hz as well. Works like a charm with an old PS/2 mouse on WinXP, but I need it on Win7 and I need the Logitech software package to work as well, which it doesn't when the mouse is on PS/2.
RealNC wrote:
21 May 2023, 02:42
A 1000Hz mouse works fine on Windows 7, even without any software, as long as 1000Hz is the default polling rate of the mouse.
It's always at 1000Hz, basically a flat line in mouse tester, but it's not smooth enough. I'm surprised so many people can't seem to notice that 1000Hz is not entirely smooth @60Hz (and even @50Hz due to variance). It's pretty easy to spot when you know what to look for, at least to my eyes. I tried out more than just a handful of mice (mouses?), pads, monitors and operating systems, also on many of my friends' systems, but it's always the same. 1000Hz looks microstuttery. It's subtle, but enough to completely and utterly grind my gears. 500Hz makes it worse, 2000Hz makes it better, but anything over 1000Hz won't work on Win7.

So I just want to smooth out mouse movements on this system either by using a piece of software that apparently doesn't exist, or by lowering the polling rate to 62.5Hz which I'm unable to do.
Last edited by CrunchyBiscuit on 30 May 2023, 21:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or GSYNC

Post by bumbeen » 21 May 2023, 12:52

CrunchyBiscuit wrote:
21 May 2023, 12:24
(mouses?)
it is indeed mouses, since computer mouse isn't an animal :lol:

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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or GSYNC

Post by CrunchyBiscuit » 21 May 2023, 13:13

bumbeen wrote:
21 May 2023, 12:52
it is indeed mouses, since computer mouse isn't an animal :lol:
No matter which one I choose, I often get corrected anyway :D

Most people seem to prefer "mice":

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?c ... ce%3B%2Cc0

I just looked it up. Douglas Engelbart, who invented the mouse, refers to it in the plural as "mice" (according to this article):

https://www.techtarget.com/whatis/featu ... -or-mouses

Curious. Unimportant, really, but was a fun read. Learned something new.

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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or GSYNC

Post by CrunchyBiscuit » 29 May 2023, 19:09

Well! I finally got 62.5Hz to work over USB. My Logitech mice were just being stubborn, but most of my cheap off-brand mice work perfectly fine at 62.5Hz(mouse)@62.5Hz(monitor)@62.5fps(scanline sync). Also found out that the polling rate needs to be at the top of the hierarchy (highest) when going this route. If the mouse polling rate is slightly lower than the monitor's refresh rate, the result is smooth movement up until the desync/misalignment. When the desync occurs, the mouse starts to stutter for quite a while (the closer the polling rate is to the monitor's refresh rate, the longer the period of stutters), until it catches up. If the mouse polling rate is slightly higher than the monitor's refresh rate, there will only be one short skip when the desync occurs (looks just like the eventual frame skip when you cap your frame rate ever so slightly below your monitor's refresh rate using traditional v-sync, but only visible during mouse movement). Superb smoothness otherwise. So much better than 1000Hz.

Too bad this monitor doesn't offer proper backlight support at 62.5Hz. At least I think it's the backlight. It starts to flicker. This monitor only seems to allow for backlight adjustment in increments of 5Hz. I guess I'll need to replace it. Also, this workaround doesn't work on any of my Logitech mice; 125Hz is as low as they'll go. When the polling rate of the mouse is twice as high as the refresh rate of the monitor, doesn't matter if it's slightly lower or slightly higher, the result always seems to be a longer period of stuttering when the misalignment occurs (just like when trying to cap the frame rate manually at half the refresh rate with regular v-sync instead of 1/2 refresh v-sync), although my Logitech mice are far more precise in this department than my off-brand mice (predictable stutters vs sloppy stutters).

Another thing that'll probably work is 125Hz(mouse)@125Hz(monitor)@62.5fps(1/2 refresh v-sync or scanline sync with SyncPeriods=1). I'd have to try that out on another monitor.

This all is too much of a hassle, but apparently the only way to achieve ~perfectly smooth motion (aside from the eventual skip) in games without mouse smoothing on Win7. I find it incredibly disappointing that there doesn't seem to be a mouse syncing or global smoothing solution to this problem. I guess the only easy way out is to use a mouse with a polling rate higher than 1kHz, but that'll only work on Win8+.

Found a great thread on github about this, with unfortunately far too few replies:

https://github.com/glfw/glfw/issues/1730

And one on Gnome:

https://discourse.gnome.org/t/synchroni ... fresh/1422

And a request on Linus Tech Tips, again with unfortunately far too few replies:

https://linustechtips.com/topic/1173118 ... standards/

And an interesting article about it (I agree with the premise, but not exactly with some of the details):

https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/3472749.3474783

No solutions for systems still running Win7 though. How frustrating.

I just need a piece of software that's able to smooth out mouse movement (just like the "m_smooth" setting in id Tech 4&5, but one that works with everything). I can't believe this is so hard to find, if it even exists at all. :?
Last edited by CrunchyBiscuit on 30 May 2023, 21:06, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or GSYNC

Post by bumbeen » 29 May 2023, 21:21

the future is now crunchybiscuit!

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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or GSYNC

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 30 May 2023, 03:23

CrunchyBiscuit wrote:
29 May 2023, 19:09
Well! I finally got 62.5Hz to work over USB. My Logitech mice were just being stubborn, but most of my cheap off-brand mice work perfectly fine at 62.5Hz(mouse)@62.5Hz(monitor)@62.5fps(scanline sync).
Yes, the pollrate would need to be at the top of the hierarchy.

You could also use VRR so you can use the mouse as the "master clock" that ticktocks the frame rate and refresh rate. The tricky part is modifying RTSS to have its framerate synchronize to the pollrate. That way, VRR syncs to pollrate, and you never have desync!

(Now that being said, game tick rate is not accounted for. In theory, a game tick rate could be sync'd to mouse poll rate, but that's a lot of frequencies to synchronize!)

Missing polls (no mouse movements) will be hard to do, but it can simply continue an internal software ticktock based on the last stream of mouse polls.

Maybe time to ask Guru3D (RTSS) or Kaldaien (SpecialK) for a pollrate-sync mode. A modification to an existing frame capping engine, where the instant a mouse poll arrives via a mouse hook (WH_MOUSEHOOK), it triggers the Present() release, allowing the next input read to occur in sync with the mouse poll. The frame rate then, thusly, automatically tick-tocks to the mouse pollrate. Be warned, mouse hooks are monitored by anticheat engines, so that can be problematic.

Adding mouse poll frame rate capping mode to an existing frame rate capping engine, could be a fantastic third party compromise that doesn't require NVIDIA involvement. Maybe join the SpecialK Discord Channel, pay the sub/Patreon fees, and plead, plead?
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CrunchyBiscuit
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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or GSYNC

Post by CrunchyBiscuit » 30 May 2023, 05:16

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
30 May 2023, 03:23
You could also use VRR so you can use the mouse as the "master clock" that ticktocks the frame rate and refresh rate. The tricky part is modifying RTSS to have its framerate synchronize to the pollrate. That way, VRR syncs to pollrate, and you never have desync!
Indeed. I'll probably buy this system a new monitor soon, so I'll keep that in mind.

This system has a problem related to using third party tools to cap the frame rate, though. It's weird. Never seen it before on other systems of mine.
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
30 May 2023, 03:23
Maybe time to ask Guru3D (RTSS) or Kaldaien (SpecialK) for a pollrate-sync mode. A modification to an existing frame capping engine, where the instant a mouse poll arrives via a mouse hook (WH_MOUSEHOOK), it triggers the Present() release, allowing the next input read to occur in sync with the mouse poll. The frame rate then, thusly, automatically tick-tocks to the mouse pollrate. Be warned, mouse hooks are monitored by anticheat engines, so that can be problematic.

Adding mouse poll frame rate capping mode to an existing frame rate capping engine, could be a fantastic third party compromise that doesn't require NVIDIA involvement. Maybe join the SpecialK Discord Channel, pay the sub/Patreon fees, and plead, plead?
Yes, that's a good idea. This would certainly be useful to me, but it sounds pretty complicated to do, and I'm not sure if other people would even be interested in this. SpecialK has a Discord channel? Cool. I know where to find Unwinder too. I'll ask around a bit when I have the time.

Found another interesting little plaything, but I'm too scared to try it out. Already borked my entire integrated USB hub before, was a bitch getting it to work properly again. Also, it probably won't work with every game, and it said something about "compile the code", so that's when I gave up :lol::

https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/52 ... -Smoothing

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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or GSYNC

Post by CrunchyBiscuit » 30 May 2023, 21:10

Kinda unrelated, but does anybody know if the AOC 24G2SAE/BK monitor is able to do 125Hz without side effects?

I'd hope so, since it's FreeSync. Should work well with any refresh rate within FreeSync range, right?

Might go for that one, if only just for science.

My 120Hz monitor upstairs only supports up to 122Hz :roll:. JUST. NOT. ENOUGH. Shit.

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