Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or GSYNC

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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or G

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 03 Feb 2016, 18:08

flood wrote:is usb limited to 1000hz? If not, I'd imagine that some company had already came out with 2000hz mice already
Nope. I've been able to send 50,000Hz over USB2 using small packets in programming tests. Very small 1-byte packets plus headers. I have no doubt that 2000Hz or 5000Hz is easily possible.

The ping jitter of a USB2 device connected to a USB3 port, is less than 0.1 millisecond.

We need vendor-sanctioned 2000Hz-4000Hz mice. Not all games will benefit, but a few will, especially during strobing/gsync, and/or perfectly refresh-rate-locked operation (where you want to minimize aliasing effects between display Hz and mouse Hz). But also don't forget sensor accuracy -- a great 500Hz mouse can be better than a crappy 1000Hz mouse.

Also, overclocking the mouse may actually worsen accuracy of tracking, so it needs to be a sensor that's fully overclockable, all the way to the sensor....otherwise worse aliasing...
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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or G

Post by sharknice » 03 Feb 2016, 18:11

This is pretty exciting. It should help even more once we start moving to higher refresh rate displays and OLEDs start getting good.

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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or G

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 03 Feb 2016, 18:13

With future 0.1ms-persistence (not 0.1ms-response) OLED monitors + refreshrate-locked strobed operation.... I estimate 1000Hz limitations will start showing to my eyes more often. I already see "LightBoost microstutters" (the phenomenon where people say strobed looks more stuttery) re-amplify themselves as I lower the persistence setting (Strobe length / pulse width) on modern strobed monitors, and part of this is definitely coming from the mouse.
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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or G

Post by lexlazootin » 04 Feb 2016, 02:10

>the phenomenon where people say strobed looks more stuttery

I thought it looked more studdery mainly because of screen tears, If parts of the screen are traveling faster than other parts with the screen jig-jagging everywhere.

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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or G

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 04 Feb 2016, 09:16

lexlazootin wrote:I thought it looked more studdery mainly because of screen tears, If parts of the screen are traveling faster than other parts with the screen jig-jagging everywhere.
Well, it's more conceptually complex than that... That's because of framerate-refreshrate aliasing effects on each tearslice, and that can also come from the mouse too (amongst many other factors, including engine itself) Mathematically, I consider each tear segment as a separate framerate-refreshrate aliasing effect problem. More frames helps. More mouserate can sometimes help too. And watching the beat frequency effects. (For example, you don't want a fps_max 127 with a 125Hz mouse -- that creates 2 amplified microstutters a second due to the beat frequency effect, above-and-beyond existing beat frequency stutter effects between refresh rate and frame rate). There are a LOT of microstutter weak links when you're focussing on minimizing microstutters during VSYNC OFF.

We're talking about situations where the game engine isn't the microstutter limiting factor (e.g. running old Source engine games on GTX Titan cards).

For example, I've always noticed that CS:GO 300fps VSYNC OFF looks smoother with a mouse at 1000Hz than a mouse at 500Hz, if strobing is enabled and I'm tracking my eyes during turning (as objects scroll past). And 500Hz is consequently smoother than at 125Hz. You can test this in CS:GO running 300fps, turn mouse filtering off, turn VSYNC OFF, turn strobing ON, and test 125Hz versus 500Hz vs 1000Hz, and turning at approximately one screenful per second while eye-tracking objects (max eye tracking speed). You will see microstutters are less with mouse 500Hz and 1000Hz rates than with the 125Hz rate.

TL;DR: Mouse rate is one of the many factors that can have a noticeable effect on improving/worsening VSYNC OFF microstutters, if the game engine isn't the limiting factor.
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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or G

Post by Glide » 05 Feb 2016, 04:13

Chief Blur Buster wrote:TL;DR: Mouse rate is one of the many factors that can have a noticeable effect on improving/worsening VSYNC OFF microstutters, if the game engine isn't the limiting factor.
A good, though short, demonstration of that here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ_znKcfwgI
Looping: http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=bJ_znKcfwgI&p=n

At Overclock.net, there is someone modding USB3 drivers to support polling rates >1000Hz: http://www.overclock.net/t/1589644/usb- ... ng-2000-hz

One person is reporting 8kHz polling with a WMO: http://www.overclock.net/t/1589644/usb- ... t_24852885

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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or G

Post by spacediver » 05 Feb 2016, 12:29

Glide wrote:
One person is reporting 8kHz polling with a WMO: http://www.overclock.net/t/1589644/usb- ... t_24852885
That would be our very own flood:

http://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopic ... 956#p20095

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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or GSYNC

Post by CrunchyBiscuit » 20 May 2023, 11:49

Ey! Me again, been a while. Over 7 years already? Jeez. Apologies for the necro, but still relevant.

I'm wondering if anybody knows of a program that's able to smooth out mouse movements, as previously suggested.

It should preferably be strong/adjustable enough to completely smooth out 125Hz polling rate movements on a 60Hz monitor, so there are no visible stutters.

Something like this:

https://processing.org/examples/interpolate.html

But one that works in games.

I already tried out:

- Silky Shark (makes the mouse stutter more)
- Lazy Nezumi Pro (can't hook to games)
- IBM MouseSmoother Mouse Smoothing Software (too old, can't install driver)
- SteadyMouse v1 (doesn't smooth out polling rate/refresh rate misalignments)

I did not try out later versions of SteadyMouse yet. The webpage mentions that game compatibility is very spotty. I might try it out later anyway, but since it's not free software, I'd like some feedback first from people who have already tried it out.

Before people suggest playing at 125fps/125Hz/125Hz - this works well enough (despite the eventual mismatch, resulting in one skip every x seconds/minutes), but many games are too heavy for this system to achieve 125fps. Also, I'd like to be able to use an older monitor that doesn't support 125Hz.

Before people suggest setting the polling rate to 1000Hz - that's what I use now, but it just doesn't look smooth enough, not even on a 60Hz/50Hz monitor. I Tried out more than just a handful of mice, monitors and operating systems, but it's always the same. 1000Hz looks microstuttery. It's subtle, but enough to completely and utterly grind my gears. Can't play like this.

Before people suggest lowering my polling rate further - none of my mice will go any lower than 125Hz. SweetLow's hidusbf drivers should be able to do the trick and 62.5Hz should be manageable (half of 125Hz), but I have not been able to get it to work yet (the mouse and keyboard break/stop being recognized when I try it out, and it was a hassle getting the Logitech Software to work again, which I need it to). I could use some more advice on this, since it would be great if I could get it to work.

Before people suggest buying a 2kHz/8kHz mouse - already have one, but I need this to work on a mostly offline retro system running Windows 7, and I believe none of the mice that support higher polling rates work properly on Windows 7 due to a lack of software support. At least mine doesn't.

Thank you in advance, much appreciated.

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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or GSYNC

Post by bumbeen » 20 May 2023, 22:55

any type of mouse smoothing interpolation implies adding a delay. at 125hz that's a full 8ms. any game will be better off with a higher polling rate as the game will have more recent information to incorporate into the next drawn frame. At 125hz, sometimes the mouse input will occur right at the perfect moment to give the game the latest data, but sometimes it will occur at the worst possible time and barely miss, meaning the frame is 8ms behind. assuming perfect frame timing, at 60fps, the next frame will suddenly have mouse input just before the frame so the mouse will suddenly teleport 8ms ahead of where it was on the previous frame. at 1000hz, the mouse will always provide input <2ms from frame generation. It seems like the focus should be on trying to determine why you see this 1000hz microstuttering and solving that rather than adding an additional 8ms of delay on top of the already 8ms of delay that happens intermittently at 125hz

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Re: Mouse 125Hz vs 500Hz vs 1000Hz visible when strobed or GSYNC

Post by RealNC » 21 May 2023, 02:42

CrunchyBiscuit wrote:
20 May 2023, 11:49
Before people suggest buying a 2kHz/8kHz mouse - already have one, but I need this to work on a mostly offline retro system running Windows 7, and I believe none of the mice that support higher polling rates work properly on Windows 7 due to a lack of software support. At least mine doesn't.
A 1000Hz mouse works fine on Windows 7, even without any software, as long as 1000Hz is the default polling rate of the mouse.
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