Screen tearing fix with GSYNC OFF

Talk about NVIDIA G-SYNC, a variable refresh rate (VRR) technology. G-SYNC eliminates stutters, tearing, and reduces input lag. List of G-SYNC Monitors.
User avatar
RealNC
Site Admin
Posts: 3317
Joined: 24 Dec 2013, 18:32
Contact:

Re: Screen tearing fix with GSYNC OFF

Post by RealNC » 14 Oct 2021, 09:34

Eonds wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 07:49
You'll eventually learn click latency is a meme
You forgot the part where you provide references to test results that support your claims. Without them, all that's left is conjecture, and that's why your claims are being treated as such.
SteamGitHubStack OverflowTwitter
The views and opinions expressed in my posts are my own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of Blur Busters.

Eonds
Posts: 137
Joined: 29 Oct 2020, 10:34
Contact:

Re: Screen tearing fix with GSYNC OFF

Post by Eonds » 14 Oct 2021, 12:50

RealNC wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 09:34
Eonds wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 07:49
You'll eventually learn click latency is a meme
You forgot the part where you provide references to test results that support your claims. Without them, all that's left is conjecture, and that's why your claims are being treated as such.
Okay that's fine, I understand you want to see that. Any further comments made by me will be sarcastic so i'll refrain from it.


1. Literally killing windows explorer & alt-tabbing back into a game is night & day (point proven) do it yourself & you can see & feel a massive difference in mouse movement.

2. If you're willing to pay me or sponsor me i'll do it.

3. I'm not a scientist, i'm just a enthusiast user who can draw reasonable (obvious) conclusions. It's a massive waste of my time & money to prove such an obviously correct point that click latency is not even useful for an average user trying to figure out why their mouse feels massively delayed but the click latency on their LDAT tool is low.

4. The real ones know what i'm talking about, but I have nothing against you or any other admin & I do appreciate the some what free speech on here without getting insta-banned because someone feels some type of way.

5. Mouse movements for measuring latency issues is much more useful real world testing than just clicking at specific/different intervals in time when 1000 things could change.

6. I'm sure you'll repeat the "prove it point" but yeah i mean this is probably my last comment because I have issues with being sarcastic/condescending.

Eonds
Posts: 137
Joined: 29 Oct 2020, 10:34
Contact:

Re: Screen tearing fix with GSYNC OFF

Post by Eonds » 14 Oct 2021, 12:54

jorimt wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 09:07
Eonds wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 07:49
I was talking about your lack of knowledge about DRAM not g-sync.



I don't think the forum is "ran" by "ignorant, know nothing morons".


Your problem is you circle jerk about FPS & click latency. You'll eventually learn click latency is a meme & so is the fixation about FPS.
If you think how long it takes for your inputs to show up on the display doesn't matter, okay then?

And if anyone is "circle jerking," (you've said that at least three times now) it's you with DRAM. Going by one of your first posts on this forum, it sounds like you had bad RAM holding back your system, and when you upgraded to better RAM, it no longer held the system back, making you correlate everything with RAM from then on out.

If you had instead had a bad CPU and good RAM, and then upgraded the CPU, you probably would have been only proselytizing CPUs instead of DRAM now.

I've seen many of your posts in this forum and could have said any of number of things, but I, for one, let people have their opinion.
You, on the other hand, directly targeted a moderator with an insulting and off-topic comment. Again, that's how this all started, else I wouldn't have bothered to converse with you at all.

Anyway, look, any other moderator would have probably soft banned you, or, at the very least, locked this thread by now. I won't. I'll let anyone who sees this exchange judge for themselves.

Finally, unless you reply here with ban-worthy content (at which point I will consult with the Chief for possible actions), this will be my last comment in this thread to you.

A sensor/camera tracking a large movement, for a long period of time is a much more realistic way to measure true system latency than clicking at specific/different intervals. Click latency is not a very useful metric. I'm sorry for the confusion. I half-ass my explanations because i assume you understand what i'm talking about.

User avatar
jorimt
Posts: 1609
Joined: 04 Nov 2016, 10:44
Location: USA

Re: Screen tearing fix with GSYNC OFF

Post by jorimt » 14 Oct 2021, 14:40

Eonds wrote:
14 Oct 2021, 12:54
A sensor/camera tracking a large movement, for a long period of time is a much more realistic way to measure true system latency than clicking at specific/different intervals. Click latency is not a very useful metric. I'm sorry for the confusion. I half-ass my explanations because i assume you understand what i'm talking about.
I thought our "exchange" had more specifically devolved into the subject of the impact of render time on system latency in regards to gaming (I did not know you were still caught on your objections to that methodology) but...

With any form of "click" latency testing, as you call it, we're looking for absolute average latency added by the metric we're isolating by comparing the A/B totals, not latency distribution over a long, continuous period of time.

Such methods, short of extreme measures, aren't practical for such distribution testing...and they aren't intended to be, hence they don't need to be "accurate" in the way you're suggesting.

They're just different. That does not make them invalid. Just like a broom isn't a good mop, and visa-versa.

They are wholly adequate for determining, say, how many more frames of latency different forms of buffering (be it from the render queue or syncing methods) add to input response on average, which is what I, and others, have primarily tested with said methodology.

You apparently assumed I was naive enough to think that this methodology covers all latency scenarios in every context imaginable. It does not, and I never once claimed it did.

I was only ever speaking in the context of average G-SYNC latency in this thread, which, again, can be measured adequately via "click" latency testing for the specific purpose of determining absolute average latency with it vs other syncing methods and no sync, and those findings show, G-SYNC being at the tail-end of the GPU process, where the frame has already been rendered, that when it is scanned in by the GPU at the display-level, when properly configured, G-SYNC does not "add" latency, but instead, its minimum frame delivery time is directly limited by the scanout time of the max refresh rate of the display as to avoid tearing, hence it doesn't further reduce frame delivery latency like no sync can through tearing.

So there's a distinct difference between G-SYNC "adding" latency, and it "not reducing" it further.

Anyway, I've have nothing left I want to say about this. It has been an unpleasant exchange, and I would like to move on to other things (as I'm sure you would). Please just try to be more patient and civil when trying to make any of your points, and try to consider there may always be something to learn from others on this forum; it isn't Twitter, and we'd like to keep it that way.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS ROG Swift PG279QM / LG 48CX OS: Windows 10 MB: ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero CPU: i7-8700k GPU: EVGA RTX 3080 FTW3 UG RAM: 32GB G.SKILL TridentZ @3200MHz

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 9551
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: Screen tearing fix with GSYNC OFF

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 15 Oct 2021, 12:35

(EDITED bigger)

It's funny, because:

G-SYNC Is the World's Lowest-Lag "Non-VSYNC-OFF" Sync Technology

There is always a scanout-lag penalty of hiding a tearline, regardless of sync technology so it's not G-SYNC fault.

(A) Tearing topic. Interrupting a refresh cycle in a sub-refresh way (adding tearing by splicing a refresh cycle mid-scanout) is the only way to reduce lag further. This is a law of physics matter for any framebuffered rendering technology and has nothing to do with G-SYNC (i.e. not raster interrupted / per-line beam raced like framebuffer-less machines such as Atari 2600). Not all pixels of a screen refresh at the same time. There is a time difference of 1/390sec for refreshing the first to last pixel on 390Hz screen. Also another way to reduce scanout lag (high speed videos) for all sync technologies is a higher Hz. A 390Hz monitor will refresh even a low-framerate dip 50fps frame in 1/390sec, as an example. So higher Hz lowers lag of low frame rates too, no matter what sync technology.

(B) Cap topic. Plus if you don't want to deal with capping then you want a VRR range bigger than your framerate range. Buy more refresh rate to solve "framerate range within VRR range". If you have a game that peaks 320fps, you can benefit from a 360Hz or 390Hz monitor so you don't have to worry about capping. Having a refresh rate too low to maximize G-SYNC minimum lag, is the responsibility of your wallet & shopping the reviews. It's funny how the esports world has scapegoated G-SYNC lag "just because it is not VSYNC OFF", but there's a minor lag penalty of having no tearlines -- even for RTSS Scanline Sync (one of the world's lowest lag method of hiding tearlines that isn't G-SYNC). You don't have to cap VRR for most games when you have 300Hz, 360Hz or 390Hz. The 390Hz monitor is particularly good if you want to combine VRR+CS:GO in esports. Now, even CS:GO is not the poster child for satisfying item (B) because it sometimes even peaks beyond >390fps. But there's other games that can never dream of doing 390fps on today's hardware, and thus, there's no such thing as the game hitting a frame rate cap during VRR operation. Now you have more consistent lagfeel when you're permanently inside G-SYNC range. Lots of complaints disappear.

The fallback sync tehcnology -- VSYNC ON and VSYNC OFF -- used concurrently with G-SYNC for the frame rates above G-SYNC range. But if your Hz is high enough to stay above frame rate, these fallback sync technologies never happen. So the "G-SYNC + VSYNC OFF" is just "G-SYNC" permanently if your framerate range is 50fps-320fps for a specific game on a 360Hz monitor, giving you the necessary lagless G-SYNC experience.

The bottom line is that lag from (A) and (B) is not G-SYNC's fault. The lag is from (A) the fault of needing to hide tearlines; and (B) the fault of needing to cap because you can't afford a refresh rate that gives G-SYNC without capping penalty.

Both (A) and (B) is true for many non-G-SYNC technologies that isn't traditional VSYNC OFF.
There's a lag associated with eliminating tearing -- for everything that has no tearing
There's a lag associated with any method of capping -- for everything that has no tearing
Therefore, it's not G-SYNC fault, full stop, it's just a common scapegoat despite being the world's lowest lag tearfree sync tech.

The "3fps below" cap is simply a lesser of pick poison because your other choice is the disadvantages of the fallback sync technology. The cap forces framerates to stay within G-SYNC range. But if your VRR Hz range is bigger than framerate range, big whoop. Problem solved. But any form of capping -- including VSYNC ON which caps to Hz -- also adds a lag penalty too. Fast Sync (fast triple buffer) solves this part, but still has mandatory scanout lag (the penalty of hiding tearing). That's the science.

Also, G-SYNC fixes a hell of a LOT of "non-VSYNC-OFF" lag problems, and that's is why it's the world's lowest latency "non-VSYNC-OFF" sync technology. VSYNC ON, Enhanced Sync, Fast Sync, Adaptive Sync, VRR, Scanline Sync, Special K-Sync, and any other form of hiding tearing, has a mandatory scanout-wait penalty (not all pixels refresh at the same time on a display, and if you don't want tearing, you can't interrupt a refresh cycle in progress without adding tearing). But G-SYNC trumps it all. (As long as LCD GtG lag is not penalized, a side effect of some cheap uncertified VESA Adaptive Sync without good AMD certification nor NVIDIA certification). Panel tech equal, G-SYNC has less lag than any other tearing-free sync technology. Full stop.

Too many people weaponize SEMANTICS 😂

Too many people weaponize SCAPEGOATS 😂

Many misuse semantics from other esports athletes being taught by other sites that miseducate them. "The lag is the fault of G-SYNC" versus "The lag is the fault of any form of disabling tearing" is not the same education! Anybody who tries the scapegoat tactic is denying proper science.

Cherrypicking can be done. You can also create a situation where 540p 480Hz VSYNC ON has less lag than 1080p 144Hz G-SYNC. Or that crappy Adaptive Sync panel with overdrive completely disabled during VRR (barf, poor/lack of overdrive blackmailing VRR lag blame). Or scaler that unnecessarily changes tapedelay lag (processing delay) when certain settings are changed (such as VRR). That is not the case for all VRR panels fortunately. However, it makes it easier to scapegoat VRR too.

However, same Hz-vs-Hz, overdrive-vs-overdrive, resolution-vs-resolution, AA-vs-AA, framerate-vs-framerate, GtG-vs-GtG, same scaler/TCON processing (signal tapedelay latency, usually 0.1ms-1ms), G-SYNC has less lag than other tearingfree sync technologies when everything else is set equal. From a pure mathematical and programming standpoint, G-SYNC is as lagless as laws of physics allows any tearingfree sync tech to be.

There. Chief has spoken.

TL:DR:
- Use VSYNC OFF if you want something lower lag than any tearing-free framebuffered sync technology ever invented.
- The takeaway is VRR / G-SYNC is generally the world's lowest lag tearing-free sync technology.

Latency science for the win!

Truth.

/goes back into the Wizard of Oz curtain/
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors

Post Reply