G-Sync + NULL

Talk about NVIDIA G-SYNC, a variable refresh rate (VRR) technology. G-SYNC eliminates stutters, tearing, and reduces input lag. List of G-SYNC Monitors.
daninthemix
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Joined: 05 Sep 2017, 04:36

G-Sync + NULL

Post by daninthemix » 26 Sep 2022, 02:00

G-sync + V-sync ON + NULL

In the above scenario, will the frame-rate always be capped below the refresh rate, even in DX12 / Vulkan games that ignore the MPRF setting? And will they do so only with G-Sync enabled (i.e. only in full-screen mode)?

Kyouki
Posts: 190
Joined: 20 Jul 2022, 04:52

Re: G-Sync + NULL

Post by Kyouki » 26 Sep 2022, 02:10

NULL to Ultra will auto-cap the frame rate, On will not.

Not sure what you mean by "MPRF setting", could you elaborate?
CPU: AMD R7 5800x3D ~ PBO2Tuner -30 ~ no C states
RAM: Gskill Bdie 2x16gb TridentZ Neo ~ CL16-16-16-36 1T ~ fine tuned latency
GPU: ASUS TUF 3080 10G OC Edition(v1/non-LHR) ~ disabled Pstates ~ max oced
OS: Fine tuned Windows 10 Pro, manual tuned.
Monitor: Alienware AW2521H ~ mix of ULMB/Gsync @ 240hz/360hz
More specs: https://kit.co/Kyouki/the-pc-that-stomps-you

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jorimt
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Re: G-Sync + NULL

Post by jorimt » 26 Sep 2022, 08:18

daninthemix wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 02:00
G-sync + V-sync ON + NULL

In the above scenario, will the frame-rate always be capped below the refresh rate, even in DX12 / Vulkan games that ignore the MPRF setting? And will they do so only with G-Sync enabled (i.e. only in full-screen mode)?
Whether the auto FPS limiter of G-SYNC + NVCP V-SYNC + Low Lantency Mode "Ultra" will engage is game-dependent. It also typically doesn't engage in DX12 or Vulkan.

I had previously done a test of some of my own games at one point to see when it would and would not engage:
G-SYNC + NVCP V-SYNC + LLM Ultra @165Hz

158 FPS Auto Limit:


– Amid Evil (DX11)
– Battlefield 1 (DX11)
– Control (DX11)
– Counter-Strike: Global Offensive (DX9)
– Deus Ex: Mankind Divided (DX11)
– Hollow Knight (DX11, Unity)
– Journey To The Savage Planet (DX11)
– Overwatch (DX11)
– Tom Clancy’s The Division 2 (DX11)
– Valorant (DX11)
– We Happy Few (DX11)

No 158 FPS Auto Limit:


– Battlefield 1 (DX12)
– Call of Duty Warzone (DX12)
– Control (DX12)
– Deus Ex: Mankind Divided (DX12)
– Doom 2016 (Vulkan & OpenGL 4.5)
– Doom Eternal (Vulkan)
– Journey To The Savage Planet (DX12)
– Outward (DX11)
– Tom Clancy’s The Division 2 (DX12)
– Yooka-Laylee and the Impossible Lair (DX11, Unity)
Basically, it's not reliable as a global framerate limiter, since it doesn't always apply to every game.

You can achieve virtually the same thing globally with G-SYNC by using G-SYNC + NVCP V-SYNC + LLM "On" (note: LLM won't engage in all games, and not in DX12 or Vulkan at all) + manual NVCP Max Frame Rate FPS limit.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

daninthemix
Posts: 19
Joined: 05 Sep 2017, 04:36

Re: G-Sync + NULL

Post by daninthemix » 26 Sep 2022, 08:29

jorimt wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 08:18
daninthemix wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 02:00
G-sync + V-sync ON + NULL

In the above scenario, will the frame-rate always be capped below the refresh rate, even in DX12 / Vulkan games that ignore the MPRF setting? And will they do so only with G-Sync enabled (i.e. only in full-screen mode)?
Whether the auto FPS limiter of G-SYNC + NVCP V-SYNC + Low Lantency Mode "Ultra" will engage is game-dependent. It also typically doesn't engage in DX12 or Vulkan.

I had previously done a test of some of my own games at one point to see when it would and would not engage:
G-SYNC + NVCP V-SYNC + LLM Ultra @165Hz

158 FPS Auto Limit:


– Amid Evil (DX11)
– Battlefield 1 (DX11)
– Control (DX11)
– Counter-Strike: Global Offensive (DX9)
– Deus Ex: Mankind Divided (DX11)
– Hollow Knight (DX11, Unity)
– Journey To The Savage Planet (DX11)
– Overwatch (DX11)
– Tom Clancy’s The Division 2 (DX11)
– Valorant (DX11)
– We Happy Few (DX11)

No 158 FPS Auto Limit:


– Battlefield 1 (DX12)
– Call of Duty Warzone (DX12)
– Control (DX12)
– Deus Ex: Mankind Divided (DX12)
– Doom 2016 (Vulkan & OpenGL 4.5)
– Doom Eternal (Vulkan)
– Journey To The Savage Planet (DX12)
– Outward (DX11)
– Tom Clancy’s The Division 2 (DX12)
– Yooka-Laylee and the Impossible Lair (DX11, Unity)
Basically, it's not reliable as a global framerate limiter, since it doesn't always apply to every game.

You can achieve virtually the same thing globally with G-SYNC by using G-SYNC + NVCP V-SYNC + LLM "On" (note: LLM won't engage in all games, and not in DX12 or Vulkan at all) + manual NVCP Max Frame Rate FPS limit.
That's brilliant - thankyou. I will do as you suggest - LLM ON, 120 fps limit (144hz display).

Kyouki
Posts: 190
Joined: 20 Jul 2022, 04:52

Re: G-Sync + NULL

Post by Kyouki » 26 Sep 2022, 08:38

jorimt wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 08:18
-
Thanks for the insights. Interesting results. Had an ancient application auto-cap the fps and kinda assumed it would've worked better on modern titles but appears to work better on older APIs?
CPU: AMD R7 5800x3D ~ PBO2Tuner -30 ~ no C states
RAM: Gskill Bdie 2x16gb TridentZ Neo ~ CL16-16-16-36 1T ~ fine tuned latency
GPU: ASUS TUF 3080 10G OC Edition(v1/non-LHR) ~ disabled Pstates ~ max oced
OS: Fine tuned Windows 10 Pro, manual tuned.
Monitor: Alienware AW2521H ~ mix of ULMB/Gsync @ 240hz/360hz
More specs: https://kit.co/Kyouki/the-pc-that-stomps-you

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jorimt
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Location: USA

Re: G-Sync + NULL

Post by jorimt » 26 Sep 2022, 09:14

Kyouki wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 08:38
Thanks for the insights. Interesting results. Had an ancient application auto-cap the fps and kinda assumed it would've worked better on modern titles but appears to work better on older APIs?
Nvidia has never confirmed the auto FPS limiting conditions of NULL with G-SYNC.

From what I can gather, one trigger is that NVCP V-SYNC is used instead of in-game V-SYNC with G-SYNC (though this isn't always the case). A second trigger is LLM "Ultra" be used with G-SYNC + NVCP V-SYNC. A third trigger seems to be whether the given game/engine supports external manipulation of the render queue via LLM settings; DX12 and Vulkan do not (they manage the render queue on their own, regardless of what LLM is set to), so perhaps this is why even if the other conditions are fulfilled, the auto limit may not trigger for those APIs in most cases.

To sum up, NULL auto FPS limiting isn't guaranteed in every game, so it either needs to be verified by the user per app, or a manual limiting method should be used in its place.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

Kyouki
Posts: 190
Joined: 20 Jul 2022, 04:52

Re: G-Sync + NULL

Post by Kyouki » 27 Sep 2022, 02:21

jorimt wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 09:14
Kyouki wrote:
26 Sep 2022, 08:38
Thanks for the insights. Interesting results. Had an ancient application auto-cap the fps and kinda assumed it would've worked better on modern titles but appears to work better on older APIs?
Nvidia has never confirmed the auto FPS limiting conditions of NULL with G-SYNC.

From what I can gather, one trigger is that NVCP V-SYNC is used instead of in-game V-SYNC with G-SYNC (though this isn't always the case). A second trigger is LLM "Ultra" be used with G-SYNC + NVCP V-SYNC. A third trigger seems to be whether the given game/engine supports external manipulation of the render queue via LLM settings; DX12 and Vulkan do not (they manage the render queue on their own, regardless of what LLM is set to), so perhaps this is why even if the other conditions are fulfilled, the auto limit may not trigger for those APIs in most cases.

To sum up, NULL auto FPS limiting isn't guaranteed in every game, so it either needs to be verified by the user per app, or a manual limiting method should be used in its place.
Interesting. I haven't noticed it much as I mostly applied a framerate limit on my own using either nvcp or rtss if I need a toggl-able solution.. Or try a few different ranges.

I had a suspect with VK at least handling things differently but didn't know DX12 handles things in a bit similar way. I usually have LLM On, Gsync on, Vsync on by the driver and either if I am sure on the fps cap I add it in nvcp for ease of use (don't have to run extra program, etc)

Maybe because it's also rare for me to run into instances where the GPU is being hammered hard enough to benefit from Ultra. Some games did behave a bit nicer in the mouse feel when Ultra was enabled but rarely always the case so just converted to the LLM On/fps cap in most cases where I use Gsync.

Thanks for the insight!
CPU: AMD R7 5800x3D ~ PBO2Tuner -30 ~ no C states
RAM: Gskill Bdie 2x16gb TridentZ Neo ~ CL16-16-16-36 1T ~ fine tuned latency
GPU: ASUS TUF 3080 10G OC Edition(v1/non-LHR) ~ disabled Pstates ~ max oced
OS: Fine tuned Windows 10 Pro, manual tuned.
Monitor: Alienware AW2521H ~ mix of ULMB/Gsync @ 240hz/360hz
More specs: https://kit.co/Kyouki/the-pc-that-stomps-you

roro13200
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Joined: 20 Oct 2021, 11:27

Re: G-Sync + NULL

Post by roro13200 » 27 Sep 2022, 15:35

in a game supports null , better to set it to on or ultra? (with gsync)

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jorimt
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Location: USA

Re: G-Sync + NULL

Post by jorimt » 27 Sep 2022, 16:09

roro13200 wrote:
27 Sep 2022, 15:35
in a game supports null , better to set it to on or ultra? (with gsync)
In a game that supports NULL and Reflex, use Reflex (it does the same things with G-SYNC, but better).

In a game that supports NULL but not Reflex use "Ultra" if you don't want to have to set a manual FPS limit, else use "On" with a manual limit with method of your choice (in-game, NVCP Max Frame Rate, RTSS, etc).
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

daninthemix
Posts: 19
Joined: 05 Sep 2017, 04:36

Re: G-Sync + NULL

Post by daninthemix » 28 Sep 2022, 00:21

jorimt wrote:
27 Sep 2022, 16:09
roro13200 wrote:
27 Sep 2022, 15:35
in a game supports null , better to set it to on or ultra? (with gsync)
In a game that supports NULL and Reflex, use Reflex (it does the same things with G-SYNC, but better).

In a game that supports NULL but not Reflex use "Ultra" if you don't want to have to set a manual FPS limit, else use "On" with a manual limit with method of your choice (in-game, NVCP Max Frame Rate, RTSS, etc).
Is it okay to have a global limit (of say 140fps) and then an in-game limit of say 60fps in a particular game? will 2 limits cause problems?

EDIT: and what if you have a global limit of 60fps, but some games have their own 60fps limit?

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