Multiple frame-rate limiters

Talk about NVIDIA G-SYNC, a variable refresh rate (VRR) technology. G-SYNC eliminates stutters, tearing, and reduces input lag. List of G-SYNC Monitors.
daninthemix
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Multiple frame-rate limiters

Post by daninthemix » 28 Sep 2022, 04:24

Suppose you set a global frame-rate limit in NVCP of 140fps.

But then a game has its own limit of 60fps - either a hard limit, or perhaps an option in the Settings menu.

What is the resultant behaviour? Of course the frame-rate will be 60fps, but will there by any 'fighting' between the 2 limits - will the global limit have a detrimental effect on frame-times, for example?

Or will there be no issues at all -the lower limit is the one that takes effect, and it's perfectly okay to run with a global driver limit.

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jorimt
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Re: Multiple frame-rate limiters

Post by jorimt » 28 Sep 2022, 08:50

daninthemix wrote:
28 Sep 2022, 04:24
The limiter set to the lowest value will take priority, while the limiter with the higher value will remain dormant (unless you remove the limiter with the lower value and the framerate can reach the higher value of the other limiter).

If you have a 140 FPS global limit set, and the game has an internal limit of 60 FPS, there is no danger of one conflicting with the other with them being so far apart.

That said, if you set a 60 FPS global limit, and the game has an internal limit of 60 FPS as well, then you could start seeing some conflicts, such as frametime performance issues and/or variable latency. As such, stacking limiters within a few frames of each other should typically be avoided where possible.
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daninthemix
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Re: Multiple frame-rate limiters

Post by daninthemix » 28 Sep 2022, 09:06

jorimt wrote:
28 Sep 2022, 08:50
daninthemix wrote:
28 Sep 2022, 04:24
The limiter set to the lowest value will take priority, while the limiter with the higher value will remain dormant (unless you remove the limiter with the lower value and the framerate can reach the higher value of the other limiter).

If you have a 140 FPS global limit set, and the game has an internal limit of 60 FPS, there is no danger of one conflicting with the other with them being so far apart.

That said, if you set a 60 FPS global limit, and the game has an internal limit of 60 FPS as well, then you could start seeing some conflicts, such as frametime performance issues and/or variable latency. As such, stacking limiters within a few frames of each other should typically be avoided where possible.
Awesome - thanks for your advice.

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Re: Multiple frame-rate limiters

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 28 Sep 2022, 19:08

Always set the low-lag framerate limiter (e.g. in-game) to the lowest limit.

You can set the low-lag frame rate limiter (e.g. in-game) to a lower number than the next higher-lag framerate limiter (e.g. RTSS), which is often commonly recommended to be below the highest-lag framerate limiter (e.g. G-SYNC + VSYNC ON).

For a global limiter, and some games capped (e.g. 60fps games), jorimt is correct -- the lowest framerate limiter will take precedence. That is normal.

For other purposes, cascading frame rate limiters can be useful if done strategically in the /correct/ pecking order. Commonly it's recommended to be ~3fps differences if you're dealing with VRR, so that'd be in-game 138fps, RTSS 141fps, for a 144Hz G-SYNC + VSYNC ON. It's overkill, but useful for smoothing-out games and improving lag-consistency with less accurate framerate limiter algorithms that still has less lag than RTSS's ultra-accurate framerate limiter when used with VRR.

Usually you only need 1 framerate limiter, but some game frame rate limiters are so inaccurate (fluctuates a lot) that you need a more precise-framerate-limiter in RTSS to help out a bit.

Now that being said, for people still shopping for monitors competitively -- it's useful to buy more Hz than you need if you need VRR in competitive / esports. With 300Hz to 500Hz VRR (G-SYNC, FreeSync), you will often not need to be dependant on a framerate limiter anymore as a lesser evil over slamming max-Hz (the G-SYNC lag effect is caused by framerates yo-yoing out of the VRR range). Majority of professional esports complaints about G-SYNC is solved when you have an uncapped organic framerate range completely inside your VRR range.
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binodynamic
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Re: Multiple frame-rate limiters

Post by binodynamic » 24 Jan 2023, 06:24

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
28 Sep 2022, 19:08
Always set the low-lag framerate limiter (e.g. in-game) to the lowest limit.

You can set the low-lag frame rate limiter (e.g. in-game) to a lower number than the next higher-lag framerate limiter (e.g. RTSS), which is often commonly recommended to be below the highest-lag framerate limiter (e.g. G-SYNC + VSYNC ON).

For a global limiter, and some games capped (e.g. 60fps games), jorimt is correct -- the lowest framerate limiter will take precedence. That is normal.

For other purposes, cascading frame rate limiters can be useful if done strategically in the /correct/ pecking order. Commonly it's recommended to be ~3fps differences if you're dealing with VRR, so that'd be in-game 138fps, RTSS 141fps, for a 144Hz G-SYNC + VSYNC ON. It's overkill, but useful for smoothing-out games and improving lag-consistency with less accurate framerate limiter algorithms that still has less lag than RTSS's ultra-accurate framerate limiter when used with VRR.

Usually you only need 1 framerate limiter, but some game frame rate limiters are so inaccurate (fluctuates a lot) that you need a more precise-framerate-limiter in RTSS to help out a bit.

Now that being said, for people still shopping for monitors competitively -- it's useful to buy more Hz than you need if you need VRR in competitive / esports. With 300Hz to 500Hz VRR (G-SYNC, FreeSync), you will often not need to be dependant on a framerate limiter anymore as a lesser evil over slamming max-Hz (the G-SYNC lag effect is caused by framerates yo-yoing out of the VRR range). Majority of professional esports complaints about G-SYNC is solved when you have an uncapped organic framerate range completely inside your VRR range.
I recently started using the LG 27” OLED 1440p 240hz monitor. Been using it on my PC which has a 5800x3d and 4090. The only way I was able to get rid of screen tearing was using the gsync on, NVCP vsync on method which auto limited my fps to 225 even with low latency mode off. Any idea why I was getting tearing even when the fps didn’t drop below my monitors max refresh rate while using other VRR settings?

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Re: Multiple frame-rate limiters

Post by jorimt » 24 Jan 2023, 09:25

binodynamic wrote:
24 Jan 2023, 06:24
The only way I was able to get rid of screen tearing was using the gsync on, NVCP vsync on method which auto limited my fps to 225 even with low latency mode off.
I addressed that here:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10495&p=89539#p89539
binodynamic wrote:
24 Jan 2023, 06:24
Any idea why I was getting tearing even when the fps didn’t drop below my monitors max refresh rate while using other VRR settings?
Because VRR doesn't work with framerates outside the refresh. With G-SYNC on + V-SYNC off + FPS above the refresh rate (which is what I assume you were running with before?), VRR behavior disengages and it reverts to no-sync.

See:
https://blurbusters.com/gsync/gsync101- ... ettings/2/
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Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

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Re: Multiple frame-rate limiters

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 24 Jan 2023, 20:39

It's worth reminding that if you haven't purchased your VRR monitor yet and want to use VRR more professionally...

...That if you plan to use VRR in esports, always purchase more VRR range than your planned framerate range.

VRR works much better when your VRR range is wider than your framerate range. Obviously quality of the LCD plays a big matter (e.g. excellent 240Hz LCD versus one of the less-good 360Hz LCD) but all things equal, always purchase more refresh rate than you think you need. Thank me later.

Organically breathing framerates happily VRRing in the entire framerate range, makes capping optional. Capping is great VRR hygiene, but capping is simply a lesser pick-poison versus the dreaded "VSYNC ON" lag of framerates skyrocketing and crashing against the top end of VRR range. Or the weird lagfeel change between VRR versus VSYNC OFF.

You don't want lagfeel changes in your entire VRR continuum, so you always want to keep framerates in VRR range, and if you buy more VRR range then you enjoy more framerates without capping!

VRR can become esports-quality in this situation without the unexpected lagfeel changes caused by framerates fluctuating at the edges of VRR ranges. Lagfeel can includes the sudden change in latency gradient since not all pixels on a screen necessary has the same lag, due to scanout lag, www.blurbusters.com/scanout

These lagfeels are different:
  • (TOP < CENTER < BOTTOM) + little backpressure ... when framerate in VRR range
  • (TOP < CENTER < BOTTOM) + more backpressure ... when framerate hits max Hz for VSYNC ON (VRR or not)
  • (TOP = CENTER = BOTTOM) + zero backpressure ... when framerate hits max Hz for VSYNC OFF uncapped (VRR or not)
  • (TOP < CENTER < BOTTOM) + slightly more backpressure ... when framerate hits below-max-Hz cap during VRR.
Enemies at the top edge of screen can lag differently than enemies at bottom edge of screen, which can be an issue in games like Fortnite where enemies show up at any corner of the screen, especially with all the aerials and towers etc. Your peripheral vision will notice these, and that triggers of your human reaction time clock to react to them. So lag is not a single number.

So inherently, in paid professional esports, "GSYNC + VSYNC OFF" and "GSYNC + VSYNC ON" can lead to compromises caused by lagfeel changes of framerates fluctuating against a cap or against a VRR max Hz.

Minor as it may be (milliseconds) and a nonissue for most of us, this is the rarified leagues of paid esports where lagfeel problems tend to matter more... The single-digit milliseconds matters a hell lot more in paid esports than casual competitive.

But with more VRR range than framerate range, this completely disappears, and VRR feels consistent through the entire framerate range of the game. VRR becomes esports quality, e.g. 500Hz VRR in CS:GO can feel better than 240Hz VSYNC OFF.

For 500Hz, the ultrafast scanout (2ms total difference between TOP vs BOTTOM edge of screen) almost eliminates the lag gradient along the vertical axis of the screen too -- even if your frame rates are only 100fps. You're getting those 100fps frames blasted over the DisplayPort cable in a mere 1/500sec, and scanned out onto the screen in 1/500sec. This benefits all sync technologies, but it also removes several VRR disadvantages in esports too!
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binodynamic
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Re: Multiple frame-rate limiters

Post by binodynamic » 26 Jan 2023, 02:47

jorimt wrote:
24 Jan 2023, 09:25
binodynamic wrote:
24 Jan 2023, 06:24
The only way I was able to get rid of screen tearing was using the gsync on, NVCP vsync on method which auto limited my fps to 225 even with low latency mode off.
I addressed that here:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10495&p=89539#p89539
binodynamic wrote:
24 Jan 2023, 06:24
Any idea why I was getting tearing even when the fps didn’t drop below my monitors max refresh rate while using other VRR settings?
Because VRR doesn't work with framerates outside the refresh. With G-SYNC on + V-SYNC off + FPS above the refresh rate (which is what I assume you were running with before?), VRR behavior disengages and it reverts to no-sync.

See:
https://blurbusters.com/gsync/gsync101- ... ettings/2/
I was experimenting with different VRR settings as I upgraded to a 4090 and 5800x3d. Wanted to see whether I can play at a steady 240 fps without screen tearing. I’d seen others play competitive shooters without adaptive sync nor a fps limit enabled without experiencing any tearing. However I was getting excessive tearing until I capped my fps a few frames lower than the max refresh rate of my monitor with g-sync enabled. Although I understand it’s optimal to have g-sync enabled with NVCP v-sync on I left it off as it was limiting my fps to 225 regardless of ULL (NVCP) and reflex (in-game) settings. It’s only a 12 fps difference but now I’m getting a steady 237 fps without the tears with V-sync off.

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Re: Multiple frame-rate limiters

Post by jorimt » 26 Jan 2023, 10:01

binodynamic wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 02:47
Wanted to see whether I can play at a steady 240 fps without screen tearing. I’d seen others play competitive shooters without adaptive sync nor a fps limit enabled without experiencing any tearing.
You will experience tearing with no-sync regardless of framerate or refresh rate. How noticeable tearing is, however, will depend on the the refresh rate (the higher the physical refresh rate, the less noticeable tearing artifacts are at any framerate), and the current framerate/frametime performance of the given game.
binodynamic wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 02:47
I was getting excessive tearing until I capped my fps a few frames lower than the max refresh rate of my monitor with g-sync enabled.
Again, that's simply because G-SYNC on + V-SYNC off + framerate above the refresh rate = G-SYNC off/no-sync.
binodynamic wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 02:47
Although I understand it’s optimal to have g-sync enabled with NVCP v-sync on I left it off as it was limiting my fps to 225 regardless of ULL (NVCP) and reflex (in-game) settings.
G-SYNC on + V-SYNC off will prevent the auto limiting function of both LLM "Ultra" and Reflex from occurring.
binodynamic wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 02:47
It’s only a 12 fps difference but now I’m getting a steady 237 fps without the tears with V-sync off.
Such a framerate difference (224 vs 237) at 240Hz with VRR is virtually negligible. It's not comparable to the 12 FPS difference between 60 and 48 at 60Hz, for instance, which can feel drastic.

As for "without the tears" with G-SYNC on + V-SYNC off, it's *without easily noticeable tears. G-SYNC on + V-SYNC off will still tear, even with framerates within the refresh rate, the tearing will just be limited to the very bottom of the screen the majority of the time.
(jorimt: /jor-uhm-tee/)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

Displays: ASUS PG27AQN, LG 48CX VR: Beyond, Quest 3, Reverb G2, Index OS: Windows 11 Pro Case: Fractal Design Torrent PSU: Seasonic PRIME TX-1000 MB: ASUS Z790 Hero CPU: Intel i9-13900k w/Noctua NH-U12A GPU: GIGABYTE RTX 4090 GAMING OC RAM: 32GB G.SKILL Trident Z5 DDR5 6400MHz CL32 SSDs: 2TB WD_BLACK SN850 (OS), 4TB WD_BLACK SN850X (Games) Keyboards: Wooting 60HE, Logitech G915 TKL Mice: Razer Viper Mini SE, Razer Viper 8kHz Sound: Creative Sound Blaster Katana V2 (speakers/amp/DAC), AFUL Performer 8 (IEMs)

binodynamic
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Re: Multiple frame-rate limite

Post by binodynamic » 28 Jan 2023, 04:12

jorimt wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 10:01
binodynamic wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 02:47
Wanted to see whether I can play at a steady 240 fps without screen tearing. I’d seen others play competitive shooters without adaptive sync nor a fps limit enabled without experiencing any tearing.
You will experience tearing with no-sync regardless of framerate or refresh rate. How noticeable tearing is, however, will depend on the the refresh rate (the higher the physical refresh rate, the less noticeable tearing artifacts are at any framerate), and the current framerate/frametime performance of the given game.
binodynamic wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 02:47
I was getting excessive tearing until I capped my fps a few frames lower than the max refresh rate of my monitor with g-sync enabled.
Again, that's simply because G-SYNC on + V-SYNC off + framerate above the refresh rate = G-SYNC off/no-sync.
binodynamic wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 02:47
Although I understand it’s optimal to have g-sync enabled with NVCP v-sync on I left it off as it was limiting my fps to 225 regardless of ULL (NVCP) and reflex (in-game) settings.
G-SYNC on + V-SYNC off will prevent the auto limiting function of both LLM "Ultra" and Reflex from occurring.
binodynamic wrote:
26 Jan 2023, 02:47
It’s only a 12 fps difference but now I’m getting a steady 237 fps without the tears with V-sync off.
Such a framerate difference (224 vs 237) at 240Hz with VRR is virtually negligible. It's not comparable to the 12 FPS difference between 60 and 48 at 60Hz, for instance, which can feel drastic.

As for "without the tears" with G-SYNC on + V-SYNC off, it's *without easily noticeable tears. G-SYNC on + V-SYNC off will still tear, even with framerates within the refresh rate, the tearing will just be limited to the very bottom of the screen the majority of the time.
I started noticing the screen tears when I switched over to the LG OLED 27” 240hz monitor from the Mag274qrx due to the massive improvement in motion clarity. I did some further testing with the 274qrx to confirm whether I was able to notice the tears on it and sure enough it is definitely there. Just as I presumed it is much less noticeable due to the difference in motion clarity.

However aside from screen tearing I’ve been noticing micro-stutters and sudden frame rate halvings while camera panning on the three games I’ve tested, which are Apex Legends, Destiny 2, and Fortnite. My fps is stable with no drops whatsoever when it happens.

I did thorough stress testing on my CPU (5800x3d) and GPU (4090 FE) and they’re both perfectly stable. Also formatted every drive and did a fresh windows install with a USB drive but I’m still getting the visual glitches. I did some troubleshooting with an Nvidia tech and they had me change NVCP power management to prefer maximum performance. After doing so the visual glitches were gone temporarily but came back the following day. I also tested a different gaming mouse and installing the games on a different SSD drive but the problem wasn’t resolved.

Can you think of anything else that can be causing this? If you have any suggestions it’ll be much appreciated.
Last edited by binodynamic on 28 Jan 2023, 05:18, edited 4 times in total.

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