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I'm afraid I'll never enjoy the benefits of GSync.

Talk about NVIDIA G-SYNC, a variable refresh rate (VRR) technology. G-SYNC eliminates stutters, tearing, and reduces input lag. List of G-SYNC Monitors.

I'm afraid I'll never enjoy the benefits of GSync.

Postby DaveKap » 23 Aug 2016, 00:23

I write this post mere minutes after unplugging my PG279Q. I'm going to put it back into its packaging and send it back to Amazon for a refund after spending 20 days with it. I'm afraid I'll never get the monitor I need and I wonder what you all think.

I'm not asking for much, I swear. I don't care about the monitor's physical size, it could be 20 inches or 30 inches, my floating stand can make it closer or further away so I just don't care. But what I do care about is 3 things. GSync compatibility, IPS panel, and 1920x1080 resolution. Apparently, I'll never get this combination!

First, GSync, that's a given and I shouldn't have to explain that in these forums. Second, IPS panel. I actually purchased a TN panel in the past and that's when I discovered how much I really dislike TN panels! Between poor viewing angles and smaller color range, I cannot use TN panels since I also use Photoshop on top of my usual gaming habits. Finally, about that 1080 resolution that kept me from enjoying the PG279Q... well it turns out, I really cannot stand the DPI settings available for anything higher than 1080. Use the default DPI and every piece of text on the monitor is too small for me to read, kick it up 1 notch and suddenly all the text is bunching in on itself, looking real ugly! On top of that, moving the monitor closer to my face to fix this problem leads to a newer problem, having to move my eyes and head too much just to flick between one corner and another of the screen. Finally, let's face it, I'm on a GTX 980 and there are still, unfortunately, games that cannot handle the 1440 resolution for a solid 60fps, making GSync kinda useless. 1080 is my sweet spot and I'm afraid I just can't enjoy anything higher without some kind of special DPI settings that Windows 7 (please don't tell me to upgrade to Windows 10, I hear enough about problems my friends have with their games on this shitty OS) doesn't offer.

So, yeah, this is my whiny ranty post asking if anyone thinks if, some day, there will be a monitor that fits my needs. With the rush to 4K, most new monitors aren't bothering to stick around with 1080 and the ones that are don't seem to want to be both IPS and GSync compatible. Does anyone happen to know if there's a single good manufacturer out there who has this kind of monitor planned for their future or am I now a dinosaur, stuck in the past, never able to get what I need?
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Re: I'm afraid I'll never enjoy the benefits of GSync.

Postby Falkentyne » 23 Aug 2016, 00:49

No monitor exists with your specification. 1080p 144hz 24" IPS monitors simply don't exist. The only 1080p IPS monitors available are 60hz monitors. You also want a true 8 bit monitor, not 6 bit + hi FRC (some panels which are advertised as 8 bit are only emulated 8 bit via 6 bit + hi-FRC so you have to know the true specifications. And there are no Gsync 1080p IPS monitors either, only TN.

Why not just run your PG279Q monitor at 1920x1080 with 1:1 image scaling set in the video card control panel? Is there any problem with that? Also, true 8 bit TN's have just as good color reproduction as true 8 bit IPS's. Just calibrate it. The only issue is the viewing angles. Don't compare 6 bit+FRC TN monitors to true 8 bit ones.

Sounds a lot like you need to just buy two monitors and just deal with it.
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Re: I'm afraid I'll never enjoy the benefits of GSync.

Postby DaveKap » 23 Aug 2016, 03:03

Falkentyne wrote:No monitor exists with your specification. 1080p 144hz 24" IPS monitors simply don't exist. The only 1080p IPS monitors available are 60hz monitors. You also want a true 8 bit monitor, not 6 bit + hi FRC (some panels which are advertised as 8 bit are only emulated 8 bit via 6 bit + hi-FRC so you have to know the true specifications. And there are no Gsync 1080p IPS monitors either, only TN.

Why not just run your PG279Q monitor at 1920x1080 with 1:1 image scaling set in the video card control panel? Is there any problem with that? Also, true 8 bit TN's have just as good color reproduction as true 8 bit IPS's. Just calibrate it. The only issue is the viewing angles. Don't compare 6 bit+FRC TN monitors to true 8 bit ones.

Sounds a lot like you need to just buy two monitors and just deal with it.

I know it doesn't currently exist, I was wondering if anyone knew if one would ever exist. The only thing I can find is that LG was supposedly making a panel with the right specs last year but it still hasn't been announced. I'm not deep in the knowledge of upcoming monitors, though, so perhaps someone here would know better.

I'm not even necessarily asking for anything higher than 60hz. 60hz with GSync looks way nicer than without. As far as 1:1 image scaling to 1080 goes, have you actually seen that in action? When I tried it, everything looked muddy and blurry. That's via resolution scaling and desktop size/position adjustment that I've tried it through, nothing would make it look as good as a native 1080 monitor. Unless you're talking about the mode that would just put black bars around the whole screen, in which case IPS doesn't work because of the backlight, I'd need an OLED monitor so that it just plain wasn't providing power to those pixels. Perhaps that is the answer I see? The infamously non-existent OLED GSync monitor? You've given me some hope yet.

And yeah, viewing angle is a HUGE reason I hate TN. I'd move my head just a little bit and see the contrast of the whole monitor shift. Maybe it was just the monitor I got but it was a pretty highly rated one and not very cheap, so I'm fairly certain I just plain can't stand TN.
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Re: I'm afraid I'll never enjoy the benefits of GSync.

Postby Glide » 23 Aug 2016, 09:08

DaveKap wrote:Finally, about that 1080 resolution that kept me from enjoying the PG279Q... well it turns out, I really cannot stand the DPI settings available for anything higher than 1080. Use the default DPI and every piece of text on the monitor is too small for me to read, kick it up 1 notch and suddenly all the text is bunching in on itself, looking real ugly!
The PG279Q is a standard ~110 DPI monitor. You shouldn't need to use DPI scaling with it at all.
Text should be the same size on it as any other standard monitor.

DaveKap wrote:Finally, let's face it, I'm on a GTX 980 and there are still, unfortunately, games that cannot handle the 1440 resolution for a solid 60fps, making GSync kinda useless.
G-Sync is all about variable framerates.
If you're dropping below 60 that's going to be a much better experience on a G-Sync display than a non-G-Sync display.
Having to keep framerates above 60 at all times is one of the issues that G-Sync aims to solve, since that's becoming an impossible task in new games on current hardware.

DaveKap wrote:1080 is my sweet spot and I'm afraid I just can't enjoy anything higher without some kind of special DPI settings that Windows 7 (please don't tell me to upgrade to Windows 10, I hear enough about problems my friends have with their games on this shitty OS) doesn't offer.
Well there's your problem if you expected DPI scaling to work at all. Windows 7 has awful support for it. 10 is significantly better in this regard.


Personally I'm hoping that the new 4K144 monitors will solve this problem though.
  1. DPI scaling works much better at integer scales (2x) than non-integer scales (1.25x-1.75x).
  2. 1080p can scale cleanly to 4K by simply doubling the size of all pixels.
This would give you the advantage of a high DPI display: much sharper text and images, no screen-door effect.
You'll get the advantage of 4K panels: really nice high quality 10-bit IPS displays rather than a 6-bit 1080p TN panel.
You'll have the advantage of being able to select 1080p for performance or 4K native for image quality, depending on the game.
1080p on a 4K panel - so long as the image is unfiltered - looks just like a 1080p native display; arguably better than a 1080p native display.

I just hope that the gaming display manufacturers are smart enough to avoid filtering 720p and 1080p inputs on a 4K panel. So far Panasonic are the only company I've seen which offers unfiltered scaling to 4K.
And in the future, 8K panels are going to be even better. They will cleanly scale 720p, 1080p, and 1440p.
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Re: I'm afraid I'll never enjoy the benefits of GSync.

Postby DaveKap » 28 Aug 2016, 06:16

Glide wrote:The PG279Q is a standard ~110 DPI monitor. You shouldn't need to use DPI scaling with it at all.
Text should be the same size on it as any other standard monitor.

Huh, well, it wasn't. It was all smaller than I could bear. Dunno what went wrong there.

Glide wrote:G-Sync is all about variable framerates.
If you're dropping below 60 that's going to be a much better experience on a G-Sync display than a non-G-Sync display.
Having to keep framerates above 60 at all times is one of the issues that G-Sync aims to solve, since that's becoming an impossible task in new games on current hardware.

G-Sync, as far as I knew, was about removing the stutters that all-too-often plague games that improperly provide shader/sound/data caching. It doesn't make lower-than-60 FPS suddenly look like 60 FPS. Funny enough, I played a game notorious for stuttering and still saw the stutters.. then played a game that ran at 60 FPS in 1080 but 24 FPS at 1440 and, welp, it looked WAY better at 1080 60 FPS with occasional drops than 1440 with consistently poor framerate. That said, I guess I titled my post wrong: I will be missing 120+ FPS more than G-Sync.

Glide wrote:Well there's your problem if you expected DPI scaling to work at all. Windows 7 has awful support for it. 10 is significantly better in this regard.

Shame it's basically broken according to reports from VR users (I am one as well) and has plenty of corner cases where it fails to run certain games properly. I really wish Microsoft would get their act together on that damn OS.

Glide wrote:Personally I'm hoping that the new 4K144 monitors will solve this problem though.
  1. DPI scaling works much better at integer scales (2x) than non-integer scales (1.25x-1.75x).
  2. 1080p can scale cleanly to 4K by simply doubling the size of all pixels.
This would give you the advantage of a high DPI display: much sharper text and images, no screen-door effect.
You'll get the advantage of 4K panels: really nice high quality 10-bit IPS displays rather than a 6-bit 1080p TN panel.
You'll have the advantage of being able to select 1080p for performance or 4K native for image quality, depending on the game.
1080p on a 4K panel - so long as the image is unfiltered - looks just like a 1080p native display; arguably better than a 1080p native display.

I just hope that the gaming display manufacturers are smart enough to avoid filtering 720p and 1080p inputs on a 4K panel. So far Panasonic are the only company I've seen which offers unfiltered scaling to 4K.
And in the future, 8K panels are going to be even better. They will cleanly scale 720p, 1080p, and 1440p.

Yeah, to be honest, when I learned that manufacturers were pushing past 1080 into the 1440 range, I began to worry as it's not a proper integer scale up. My worries have been, unfortunately, founded. Too bad they can't even get 1440 144 IPS panels 100% solid (still light bleed and bright/dark pixel issues) and when the heck is LG just going to give us oled monitors already? Ugh!
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Re: I'm afraid I'll never enjoy the benefits of GSync.

Postby Glide » 29 Aug 2016, 17:48

DaveKap wrote:
Glide wrote:G-Sync is all about variable framerates.
If you're dropping below 60 that's going to be a much better experience on a G-Sync display than a non-G-Sync display.
Having to keep framerates above 60 at all times is one of the issues that G-Sync aims to solve, since that's becoming an impossible task in new games on current hardware.

G-Sync, as far as I knew, was about removing the stutters that all-too-often plague games that improperly provide shader/sound/data caching. It doesn't make lower-than-60 FPS suddenly look like 60 FPS. Funny enough, I played a game notorious for stuttering and still saw the stutters.. then played a game that ran at 60 FPS in 1080 but 24 FPS at 1440 and, welp, it looked WAY better at 1080 60 FPS with occasional drops than 1440 with consistently poor framerate. That said, I guess I titled my post wrong: I will be missing 120+ FPS more than G-Sync.
It's not going to make low framerates look good, it's going to make variable framerates look good.
G-Sync can't do anything for game engines that are stuttering for some reason other than framerate either.
What G-Sync fixes is the stuttering caused by uneven presentation of frames.

As an example: even if you have a consistent 59 FPS on a 60Hz monitor, the game will stutter once every second.
If it drops to 58 FPS then it will stutter twice every second, or particularly badly once. 57 FPS, up to three stutters, and so on.

This is true for any framerate which is not a multiple of your refresh rate.
So the problem is still there on a non-G-Sync 144Hz monitor. It's just somewhat less prevalent the higher your refresh rate goes.
Any framerate which is not a consistent V-Synced 144/72/48/36 FPS will stutter on a 144Hz display.
With a 120Hz display that's 120/60/40/30 FPS.
The exact framerate your game is running at will determine how many times the game will stutter each second.

With a G-Sync display the screen no longer updates at a fixed interval, it only refreshes once a new frame has been completed.
So if your framerate is something like 93 FPS, which wouldn't sync to either a 120/144Hz display, the screen will be refreshing at 93Hz and there won't be any stutter.

If the game is the cause of stuttering, such as shaders being generated, slow HDD access etc, then G-Sync can't do anything for it.
DaveKap wrote:
Glide wrote:Well there's your problem if you expected DPI scaling to work at all. Windows 7 has awful support for it. 10 is significantly better in this regard.

Shame it's basically broken according to reports from VR users (I am one as well) and has plenty of corner cases where it fails to run certain games properly. I really wish Microsoft would get their act together on that damn OS.
It doesn't sound like you've actually tried using it.

DaveKap wrote:Yeah, to be honest, when I learned that manufacturers were pushing past 1080 into the 1440 range, I began to worry as it's not a proper integer scale up. My worries have been, unfortunately, founded.
Again: 1440p displays should not require scaling. Text should be the same size on them as any other standard 110 DPI display.
The display is physically larger to compensate for the increase in resolution and you just have more workspace.
I'd seriously recommend that you make an appointment to get your eyes checked if you're having difficulty reading text on one.
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Re: I'm afraid I'll never enjoy the benefits of GSync.

Postby DaveKap » 30 Aug 2016, 06:14

Glide wrote:G-Sync is all about variable framerates.
If you're dropping below 60 that's going to be a much better experience on a G-Sync display than a non-G-Sync display.
Having to keep framerates above 60 at all times is one of the issues that G-Sync aims to solve, since that's becoming an impossible task in new games on current hardware.
G-Sync, as far as I knew, was about removing the stutters that all-too-often plague games that improperly provide shader/sound/data caching. It doesn't make lower-than-60 FPS suddenly look like 60 FPS. Funny enough, I played a game notorious for stuttering and still saw the stutters.. then played a game that ran at 60 FPS in 1080 but 24 FPS at 1440 and, welp, it looked WAY better at 1080 60 FPS with occasional drops than 1440 with consistently poor framerate. That said, I guess I titled my post wrong: I will be missing 120+ FPS more than G-Sync.
It's not going to make low framerates look good, it's going to make variable framerates look good.
G-Sync can't do anything for game engines that are stuttering for some reason other than framerate either.
What G-Sync fixes is the stuttering caused by uneven presentation of frames.

As an example: even if you have a consistent 59 FPS on a 60Hz monitor, the game will stutter once every second.
If it drops to 58 FPS then it will stutter twice every second, or particularly badly once. 57 FPS, up to three stutters, and so on.

This is true for any framerate which is not a multiple of your refresh rate.
So the problem is still there on a non-G-Sync 144Hz monitor. It's just somewhat less prevalent the higher your refresh rate goes.
Any framerate which is not a consistent V-Synced 144/72/48/36 FPS will stutter on a 144Hz display.
With a 120Hz display that's 120/60/40/30 FPS.
The exact framerate your game is running at will determine how many times the game will stutter each second.

With a G-Sync display the screen no longer updates at a fixed interval, it only refreshes once a new frame has been completed.
So if your framerate is something like 93 FPS, which wouldn't sync to either a 120/144Hz display, the screen will be refreshing at 93Hz and there won't be any stutter.

If the game is the cause of stuttering, such as shaders being generated, slow HDD access etc, then G-Sync can't do anything for it.[/quote]
Thanks for this run-down. Now I know a bit more about G-Sync! :)
DaveKap wrote:
Glide wrote:It doesn't sound like you've actually tried using it.

I have it on a work machine and most of my gaming friends use it, so I've had enough experience with it to know I don't want to install it on my primary gaming machine yet. The anniversary patch caused more issues than it fixed, so I still feel like the OS hasn't had it's proper SP1 yet to justify my installing it.

Glide wrote:Again: 1440p displays should not require scaling. Text should be the same size on them as any other standard 110 DPI display.
The display is physically larger to compensate for the increase in resolution and you just have more workspace.
I'd seriously recommend that you make an appointment to get your eyes checked if you're having difficulty reading text on one.

I dunno what to tell ya, I have perfect vision. It's not that I can't read the text, it's that I don't want to because it's irritatingly small. It is not, physically, the same size as it is on a 1080 monitor so something is definitely wrong. Maybe it's Windows 7? Maybe it's the monitor? Maybe it's some third-party program I have running somewhere that's playing a trick on me? I do have a few Windows optimizers running (dual-display manager, toolbar fixer, icon organizer) so maybe one of them has gone rogue? The fact remains, something messed up with the size and text got small.
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Re: I'm afraid I'll never enjoy the benefits of GSync.

Postby Glide » 30 Aug 2016, 11:32

DaveKap wrote:I dunno what to tell ya, I have perfect vision. It's not that I can't read the text, it's that I don't want to because it's irritatingly small. It is not, physically, the same size as it is on a 1080 monitor so something is definitely wrong. Maybe it's Windows 7? Maybe it's the monitor? Maybe it's some third-party program I have running somewhere that's playing a trick on me? I do have a few Windows optimizers running (dual-display manager, toolbar fixer, icon organizer) so maybe one of them has gone rogue? The fact remains, something messed up with the size and text got small.
Well it depends on what size of monitor you're comparing it to.
The only thing which affects text size is pixel density.
A lot of manufacturers have been gradually increasing monitor sizes without increasing resolution to match, resulting in 24", 25", and even 27" monitors still running 1080p rather than the ~21" that used to be typical.
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Re: I'm afraid I'll never enjoy the benefits of GSync.

Postby DaveKap » 30 Aug 2016, 22:03

Glide wrote:
DaveKap wrote:I dunno what to tell ya, I have perfect vision. It's not that I can't read the text, it's that I don't want to because it's irritatingly small. It is not, physically, the same size as it is on a 1080 monitor so something is definitely wrong. Maybe it's Windows 7? Maybe it's the monitor? Maybe it's some third-party program I have running somewhere that's playing a trick on me? I do have a few Windows optimizers running (dual-display manager, toolbar fixer, icon organizer) so maybe one of them has gone rogue? The fact remains, something messed up with the size and text got small.
Well it depends on what size of monitor you're comparing it to.
The only thing which affects text size is pixel density.
A lot of manufacturers have been gradually increasing monitor sizes without increasing resolution to match, resulting in 24", 25", and even 27" monitors still running 1080p rather than the ~21" that used to be typical.

My current 1080 monitor is 24", while the 1444 monitor was 27". Would that be the cause?
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Re: I'm afraid I'll never enjoy the benefits of GSync.

Postby lexlazootin » 31 Aug 2016, 04:24

1920x1080, 24" = 92 PPI
2560x1440, 27" = 109 PPI

https://www.sven.de/dpi/

sure it's a little more, but not much.
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