[Thread Superseded] G-Sync 101 w/Chart (WIP)

Talk about NVIDIA G-SYNC, a variable refresh rate (VRR) technology. G-SYNC eliminates stutters, tearing, and reduces input lag. List of G-SYNC Monitors.
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Re: G-Sync 101 w/Chart (WIP)

Post by RealNC » 03 Apr 2017, 10:12

kurtextrem wrote:Has someone tested G-Sync with the new gaming mode from the Win 10 Creators Update?
In Rainbow Six it having G-Sync enabled and Gaming Mode introduces a lot of micro stutter. Not sure if it's because of G-Sync though.
But it makes the game unplayable.
Could be anything. The new update has some rather big changes in the Direct3D DLLs (it broke RTTS's hook mechanism, for example.) But I'm not aware of it breaking G-Sync in general. I haven't updated, so I can't test myself.
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Re: G-Sync 101 w/Chart (WIP)

Post by RealNC » 03 Apr 2017, 10:16

@jorimt

There was a post on CS:GO's subreddit a while back, where someone apparently did some measurements and then claimed that CS:GO's weapons fire is tied to the tickrate. I've searched and searched to find that post again but can't.

If that's true, if you're running "-tickrate 128" in your launch options, then that could mean your input lag measurements could have a 7.8ms jitter in them (15.6ms if you use the default 64 tickrate.) Did you notice anything like that in your tests?
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Re: G-Sync 101 w/Chart (WIP)

Post by jorimt » 03 Apr 2017, 11:19

kurtextrem wrote:Has someone tested G-Sync with the new gaming mode from the Win 10 Creators Update?
In Rainbow Six it having G-Sync enabled and Gaming Mode introduces a lot of micro stutter. Not sure if it's because of G-Sync though.
But it makes the game unplayable.
I have not, but that doesn't sound good. I own Siege, so I'll be sure to try that out when the update releases on the 11th.
RealNC wrote:Could be anything. The new update has some rather big changes in the Direct3D DLLs (it broke RTTS's hook mechanism, for example.) But I'm not aware of it breaking G-Sync in general. I haven't updated, so I can't test myself.
Urg, one of the reasons I'm not on the Fast Ring updates. This may complicate my upcoming input latency tests if what you say is true across system configurations, and isn't fixed by the update's official release on the 11th.
RealNC wrote:@jorimt

There was a post on CS:GO's subreddit a while back, where someone apparently did some measurements and then claimed that CS:GO's weapons fire is tied to the tickrate. I've searched and searched to find that post again but can't.

If that's true, if you're running "-tickrate 128" in your launch options, then that could mean your input lag measurements could have a 7.8ms jitter in them (15.6ms if you use the default 64 tickrate.) Did you notice anything like that in your tests?
My original input latency tests were at default tickrate settings. In fact, everything was at default settings system wide for proper control results.

Thanks for mentioning, however; I may mess around with that parameter in my upcoming tests. I may also change my test method from gun fire to strafing or turning left/right, as to rule out that very variable.
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Re: G-Sync 101 w/Chart (WIP)

Post by lexlazootin » 03 Apr 2017, 12:00

RealNC wrote:There was a post on CS:GO's subreddit a while back, where someone apparently did some measurements and then claimed that CS:GO's weapons fire is tied to the tickrate. I've searched and searched to find that post again but can't.
That was my post.

I was trying to figure out why specifically firing had so much extra latency compared to other tests, and why HL1 and other source games did have this problem. I found that when the game exceeded 1000fps, the game would speedup and the delay would be minimized.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =301471435

If you simply slow down the game it becomes very obvious.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgQDDiJAar0

https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensiv ... ncy_proof/

All the comment pretty much trash... makes me angry to read them

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Re: G-Sync 101 w/Chart (WIP)

Post by RealNC » 03 Apr 2017, 13:08

Small world! Pretty weird that it turned out to be you. If this is indeed true, testing latency through the muzzle flash should best be avoided from now on.

@jorimt I'm pretty sure you already know, but just in case you don't, there's no need to do any weird mouse mods to measure strafing. In CS:GO, you can bind the mouse key to anything, including strafing or looking.
lexlazootin wrote:All the comment pretty much trash... makes me angry to read them
Welcome to Reddit :mrgreen:
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Re: G-Sync 101 w/Chart (WIP)

Post by RealNC » 03 Apr 2017, 13:22

RealNC wrote:Anyway, the most popular limiters out there are RTSS, nvidia's built-in limiter (through Inspector), Radeon Pro (should work with NVidia too), and dxtory. I'll test them out.
Just an update on this, I tried dxtory with a bunch of games and it's identical to RTSS. If you set a cap of 10FPS it's trivially easy to tell 1 frame of difference just by moving the mouse. (It's even trivial to tell with 22FPS, which is the lowest possible cap with Inspector and the 1 frame of additional lag is very obvious without needing a camera.)

So no benefit from dxtory. Couldn't get RadeonPro to work after all. But that software seems abandoned by now anyway. Last release was like 4 years ago or something.
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Re: G-Sync 101 w/Chart (WIP)

Post by jorimt » 03 Apr 2017, 13:32

RealNC wrote: @jorimt I'm pretty sure you already know, but just in case you don't, there's no need to do any weird mouse mods to measure strafing. In CS:GO, you can bind the mouse key to anything, including strafing or looking.
Thanks for the heads up. Since I haven't attempted it yet, I wasn't sure if I had to do a config hack or not. Good to know the remap is natively supported.
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Re: G-Sync 101 w/Chart (WIP)

Post by Sparky » 03 Apr 2017, 14:15

RealNC wrote:
lexlazootin wrote:All the comment pretty much trash... makes me angry to read them
Welcome to Reddit :mrgreen:
A whole lot of communities get like that when they grow large enough. The good posts are still there, but they get diluted. It's rare to find a community with 100k+ members that isn't overwhelmed by idiots. The CS:GO demographics probably don't help much either.

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Re: G-Sync 101 w/Chart (WIP)

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 04 Apr 2017, 11:43

jorimt wrote:Yes, if you've set 165 Hz as your refresh rate, the (top to bottom) scanout rate is 6.1ms regardless of your framerate limit.
At maximum refresh rate (reduced vertical totals) this is true.

So on the related "behind-the-scenes" topic of display "scan out" speeds...
...and how it relates to Variable Refresh Rate (VRR) technologies, such as GSYNC/FreeSync....

Scanout time is the amount of time a screen takes to be refreshed top-to-bottom. It can also be decoupled from refresh rate too even without FreeSync/GSYNC too. Meaning scanout can be faster, and a longer pause before beginning the next scanout (of the next refresh cycle). This can maintain the same refresh rate, but with a faster scanout (up to maximum dotclock rate). This is different from how FreeSync works -- scanout remains exactly the same at all times but the vertical total varies between refresh cycles in order to shift refresh cycles around.

For example, Large Vertical Totals accelerates the scanout speed. (See Custom Resolution Glossary) For example, using the VT1350 trick on a BENQ Z-Series monitor, it's possible to make scanout time only 1080/1350ths of a refresh cycle (with the remainder becoming large blanking interval pause between refresh cycles -- which is useful to reduce strobe crosstalk double-image effects with Motion Blur Reduction modes). This gives more time for the LCD panel to finish the 1ms GtG before the next refresh cycle begins -- this is useful for cleaner blur reduction modes that reduce the double-image effects (strobe crosstalk).

Metaphorically, VRR can also be thought of, as a variable-sized Vertical Total (at least in the case of AMD FreeSync) -- where lines are added/removed from the blanking interval between refresh cycles -- in order to vary the interval between refresh cycles. The scanout is same speed (same number of pixel rows / scanlines per second) but the number of blanking interval lines varies between refresh cycles to delay the next refresh cycle until the GPU begins delivering the frame. That's essentially how FreeSync / VESA Adaptive-Sync essentially works! It even works properly through most adaptors (HDMI, VGA, etc) and -- when hacked via ToastyX CRU -- it apparently works on several HDMI and VGA displays, even FreeSync to work on certain CRTs!

Not all legacy displays will function properly with variable blanking intervals, but it is rudimentary enough that old multisync displays (without the blankout-during-refresh-change electronics) actually can slew their vertical refresh rate fast enough to keep up with VRR successfully, as horizontal scanrate and horizontal sync is 100% completely unmodified with a variable-VBI (FreeSync) signal. Dotclock unchanged, horizontal total unchanged, horizontal blanking unchanged, horizontal scanrate unchange -- FreeSync/AdaptiveSync is really the 'gentlest possible' minimum-modification way to add VRR support to a legacy signal and actually successfully passes through dumb adaptors including analog signals.

That said, G-SYNC has superior attributes in many areas if you don't mind the expense or proprietary technology.
RealNC wrote:Welcome to Reddit :mrgreen:
Reddit was very impressive with their April Fool's weekend experiment.

Over 1 million people could draw 1 pixel (each) on a 1000x1000 canvas only every 5 minutes (each) --at /r/place -- and created some really amazing collaborative pixel art that unexpectedly strongly battled vandalism back:
REDDIT’S APRIL FOOLS’ JOKE SPAWNED A SURPRISINGLY AWESOME SOCIAL EXPERIMENT

The speeded-up timelapse of the 72-hour it fun too (watch it in full screen, though!).

But, obviously, I'm getting offtopic. Back to G-SYNC 101!
RealNC wrote:Small world! Pretty weird that it turned out to be you. If this is indeed true, testing latency through the muzzle flash should best be avoided from now on.
Specific actions can also include binding the mouse key to other more visible actions, such as turning on/off a HUD -- as long as it's done without a lag. Or a jump key, if the acceleration of the jump upwards is much more visible than strafe left/right.

Also, be warned, there may exist games that may have a momentum lag for strafing/etc. That, along with low-resolution of current cheap high-speed cameras, can make benchmarking difficult.

It will become easier over time, especially with future 1000fps full-HD smartphone sensors.
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Re: G-Sync 101 w/Chart (WIP)

Post by RealNC » 04 Apr 2017, 12:13

Chief Blur Buster wrote:Also, be warned, there may exist games that may have a momentum lag for strafing/etc. That, along with low-resolution of current cheap high-speed cameras, can make benchmarking difficult.
Fortunately, in CS:GO you ban bind mouse keys to "look left/right", which should not be affected by anything.
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