Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Talk about NVIDIA G-SYNC, a variable refresh rate (VRR) technology. G-SYNC eliminates stutters, tearing, and reduces input lag. List of G-SYNC Monitors.
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jorimt
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Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Post by jorimt » 18 Dec 2020, 11:02

pellson wrote:
16 Dec 2020, 19:03
I'm a little curious why nobody seems to acknowledge this phenomen.
The closest I know of this being covered was in a video by Battle(non)sense mentioned in the other thread you posted in:
https://forums.blurbusters.com/viewtopi ... 284#p55161
Just enabling G-sync in the NV control panel would bring advantage in a frame rate uncapped game, looks crazy to me.
This result reminds me of one of Chris's input lag analysis, which disables G-sync on a G-sync compatible monitor introducing increased input lag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L42nx6ubpfg&t=835s
But what he found was the opposite; enabling G-SYNC mode on his G-SYNC Compatible test display lowered the input lag, which actually makes more sense, as VRR operation requires near real-time/real-time scanout operation.

He never followed up or dug deeper though, and again, with FreeSync/software VRR, this "issue" could potentially vary depending on the monitor model, driver version, whether you're running an Nvidia or AMD GPU, and how the given panel scaler and firmware on a monitor is handling processing.

Thus, a conclusive answer would be time consuming and very costly, as it would require testing multiple FreeSync monitor models across multiple build types as to rule out brand/platform differences, as well as across multiple driver versions, as to rule out software differences.
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Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Post by Caronizeeee » 22 Dec 2020, 16:28

Guys I have a question. I have an Alienware AW2518HF and I usually use Gsync + Vsync ON NVCP, low latency mode ON and 237fps cap. Sometimes I would like to test without these settings, but my monitor has a problem that if I disable GSYNC on NVCP it starts showing severe purple Ghosts. If I use his time response in "Normal", Ghost will decrease, but it will still be very weak compared to Gsync (Freesync) ON. When I'm with Gsync (Freesync) ON, I believe that the time response doesn't make a difference anymore, as I can use it in "Super Fast" without ghost. My question is, if I wanted to test without GSYNC, can I just disable VSYNC ON on NVCP and remove the FPS cap? Would it feel the same as if the GSYNC were turned off, if my FPS is always above 240? Thanks

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Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Post by TTT » 23 Dec 2020, 10:50

pellson wrote:
14 Dec 2020, 20:31
jorimt wrote:
20 Aug 2020, 08:33
Faskill wrote:
20 Aug 2020, 07:22
Is there any use in using GSync when playing at fps significantly below the monitor frequency?
For example when playing at 150fps on a 240Hz monitor.
That's G-SYNC primary intended use. It's what it was originally created for.
Faskill wrote:
20 Aug 2020, 07:22
This is only my first hand impressions but I feel like my monitor is more reactive while it’s not trying to match its frequency to my lower fps count (GSync Off)
Your only "reactive" advantage over G-SYNC with G-SYNC off in that range is the visible tearing; when it tears, there's your one and only "advantage." Otherwise, there's no difference between the two performance/input lag-wise during normal operation.
This is not true.
I have the Vg27aq and it 100% has an extremely small increase in input lag just by enabling the VRR in the OSD. No, I don't want to hear "that's because you have to cap fps beneath max bla bla" I know all this stuff already how vsync works.

I can instantly feel my mouse get a bit more responsive in windows by disabling it in the osd. But it's so small most wont notice I guess, but I drove me insane coming from the vg258qe, maybe its 3ms but noticible for an ocd guy like me.

Also, rtings mentions this on their review for the vg27aql1.

Vrr enabled: 5.7 ms
Vrr disabled: 3.3ms

Finally after months of ONLY reading comments like "there is no diffrence, you hare hitting vsycn roof, cap your fps bla bla" i have found someone who agrees with me.

Sorry for bad English, and also writing on mobile.
VRR is active in fullscreen/windowed applications when it is enabled, Windows isn't an application and I would think is not effected in any way by VRR?

I don't see why it would add input lag in Windows, unless you are imagining it.

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Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Post by StaceyKarina » 15 Jan 2021, 12:19

G-Sync operates within the monitor's refresh rates, so that means lower FPS, and it introduces a small amount of input lag*, so it's not an option for most pros. G-Sync's point is to make games more enjoyable by reducing stutter, getting rid of vsync input lag, and eliminating tearing at the same time. Professionals don't care about ""enjoyable"", they care about performing better.
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Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 15 Jan 2021, 22:57

StaceyKarina wrote:
15 Jan 2021, 12:19
G-Sync operates within the monitor's refresh rates, so that means lower FPS, and it introduces a small amount of input lag*, so it's not an option for most pros. G-Sync's point is to make games more enjoyable by reducing stutter, getting rid of vsync input lag, and eliminating tearing at the same time. Professionals don't care about ""enjoyable"", they care about performing better.
The great news is that 360 Hz monitors means games frame rate ranges now increasingly operate within VRR ranges, eliminating a lot of the G-SYNC disadvantages for esports. Also, 360 Hz monitors mean global refreshing occurs in a mere 1/360sec = 2.8 milliseconds, no matter what the frame rate is, making VSYNC OFF a lot more unnecessary than it used to be.

This thread slowly becomes outdated the higher the refresh rates becomes.

That said, 1000Hz+ probably slowly makes FreeSync & G-SYNC obsolete.

G-SYNC, ULMB, VSYNC ON, VSYNC OFF, all converge to identicalness at 1000fps at 1000Hz, so you get fully bright, blurless, tearingless, stutterless, stroboscopicless, lagless motion. Sync technologies are a band-aid because refresh rates are still too low to match real life. Trying to simulate analog motion (real life is literally infinite frame rate) is very hard at finite refresh rates. But 1000fps+ at 1000Hz+ makes it more possible to merge all the best of all the sync technologies, merged into one! Blur Busters Law: The Amazing Journey To Future 1000 Hz Displays. The refresh rate to retina refresh rate is the Blur Busters Mission, essentially!
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Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Post by MT_ » 16 Jan 2021, 17:16

Even in best case, it still adds input lag. It looses its 'raw' response. Depending on the refresh rate it could be a few ms to like 5~10ms.

I rather play at like double the fps of my screens refresh rate (aka 240 in game cap) and keep that as steady as possible to minimize tearing.

(Force resolution timer to 0.5ms helps 99% of in-game caps)

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Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 17 Jan 2021, 01:07

MT_ wrote:
16 Jan 2021, 17:16
Even in best case, it still adds input lag. It looses its 'raw' response.
G-SYNC feels like a totally new sync technology when you don't need to cap -- for example, playing a game that fluctuates 100-300fps feels nice on a 360Hz G-SYNC panel. Night and day compared to yesteryear's 144Hz and 165Hz G-SYNC panels.

You don't have the latency-inconsistency behaviours of framerate-below-max and framerate-above-max, preserving your latency muscle memory when your framerate range is within VRR range; so it essentially preserves raw response because gametime:photontime is much more stable consistent with G-SYNC than VSYNC OFF, because you don't have the latency-jittering effect of

(A) No VSYNC OFF microstutters;
(B) Nor needing a framerate cap for G-SYNC;
(C) Nor worrying about the latency-change effect of framerate-below-max versus framerate-above-max.

VSYNC OFF has more latency jitter, but its latency averages stays consistent through the crossing threshold (fps below Hz and fps above Hz), which keeps it feeling raw. But as long as you've got a ginormous VRR range that you can drive a truck through, G-SYNC can feel "raw" especially if your priority is very consistent gametime:photontime behavior without the jittering latency gradients of VSYNC OFF (even if absolute lag is lower).

However, the mousefeel will vary from game to game. In some cases, mousefeel may for example feel better with VSYNC OFF for CS:GO but feel better with G-SYNC for PUBG. But your mileage will vary.

The ability to uncap your game unlimited, without your framerate ever exceeding max Hz, means G-SYNC can stay rawfeeling for some games. Many competitive games never exceed max Hz, if you're using brute Hz (e.g. 360Hz panels) to keep G-SYNC beautifully fast. (120fps cap at 360Hz G-SYNC can be lower lag than 240fps cap on a 120Hz panel VSYNC OFF, thanks to the scanout lag mathematics).

The latency mathematics for G-SYNC at "framerates permanently below Hz without needing to cap" (thanks to the virtue of a 360Hz monitor and games running permanently below 360fps without needing capping) makes G-SYNC magically better and lower lagfeel / more rawfeeling. You can still cap G-SYNC, for lag consistency purposes, like you already cap VSYNC OFF.

When (Hz is super high) AND (game framerate never exceeds Hz), the playing field on VSYNC OFF-versus-G-SYNC is much more level, and occasionally tilts G-SYNC in certain games (though not commonly CS:GO though). For example, the latency gradient of a VSYNC OFF frameslice is [0..frametime] between the two tearlines, but since the tearlines are jittering in location, the latency gradient is jittering all over the place, interfering with your muscle in certain ways -- especially the sawtooth lag of a framerate cap and slowly-scrolling tearlines (which creates a slewing-latency effect). Whereas, G-SYNC has a perfectly consistent latency gradient [0..1/360sec] from top-to-bottom edge, at ALL frame rates, at ALL random unexpected frametimes, at ALL stable or erratic frame rates. This can improve muscle despite having sometimes more lag for screen middle (1/720sec) or bottom (1/360sec), but there is now more perfect gametime:photontime consistency for all pixels on a screen surface.

During VSYNC OFF, gametime:photontime variances can vary by as much as a full refresh cycle, while during G-SYNC, gametime:photontime variances can vary by almost 0ms (Even if average lag is, say, 1/720sec higher for screen center on a 360Hz monitor -- the halftime of scanout lag). In other words, certain games means G-SYNC versus VSYNC OFF playing field is levelled out to a choice between a fixed +1/720sec display lag modifier for all frames (G-SYNC) versus a varying display lag [0ms...1/360sec] in the series of frames for the same said pixel.

The problem is this somewhat falls apart with games that wants to perpetually run at frame rates far beyond refresh rates; since now VSYNC OFF start to become clearly superior for games that stays above Hz, or frequently crosses the crossing point (fps gyrating below/above Hz).

Now, if framerates stay below Hz without needing to cap, then the playing field is totally rewritten brutally. Because of the randomization of tearline locations in adjacent frame, which causes the lag-jittering effect, and if you cap at an exact multiple of Hz (e.g. 240fps cap at 120Hz), you may create a slowly-scrolling tearline -- which can cause a latency sawtooth effect (you have the highest lag just above a tearline, and lowest lag just below a tearline .... and if the tearline is moving, then your vertical latency graident is "scrolling"!)

But the magic is, when you have a super-high refresh rate, you start to gain the zero-varying display lag for specific pixels.

YMMV, but many in esports play CS:GO or Valorant whose framerates exceed a 240Hz monitor, so G-SYNC advantages are lost lost on those situations. I recommend VSYNC OFF when your framerates almost always exceed refresh rate. Right Tool for Right Game.

But yes, stabilizing GPU frametime lag jitter by capping it is still useful, especially if you hate varying-frametime lag. Other latency causes (e.g. rendering lag / frametime lag) is a separate of display lag, and still exists. Consistent framerates means consistent GPU rendering lag (another part of the lag chain).
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Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Post by diakou » 18 Jan 2021, 16:17

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
17 Jan 2021, 01:07
However, the mousefeel will vary from game to game. In some cases, mousefeel may for example feel better with VSYNC OFF for CS:GO but feel better with G-SYNC for PUBG. But your mileage will vary.
What info extra do you have on mousefeel and g-sync?

Without remembering the specific details, I essentially read that it has to do with the mouse cursor itself being drawn in a way that allows G-Sync to affect it / not affect it. Which is why the mousefeel swings so much and also why it feels terrible @ lower Hz.

I don't remember what the specifics where, that it had to be software or hardware made for the g-sync mousefeel to be good/not problematic.

I think if that was fixed, once people get monitors that push higher refresh rates than most games FPS can stay at stable with demanding graphics, it'll have a 1-2 year phase where it's worth it until we have high enough refresh rates corresponding with the frame rates.

Or obviously in the use case of fixed FPS games (fighting games often) G-sync is fantastic there.

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Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 18 Jan 2021, 18:14

diakou wrote:
18 Jan 2021, 16:17
Without remembering the specific details, I essentially read that it has to do with the mouse cursor itself being drawn in a way that allows G-Sync to affect it / not affect it. Which is why the mousefeel swings so much and also why it feels terrible @ lower Hz.
No, -- that was a separate topic.

There are many dominoes that mousefeel can be bad. But the Windows mouse cursor is a Windows thing. And launching a game in FSE, the game issues can also be a game thing.

Even if Windows was fixed, the games won't be, and vice-versa. Apples, meet oranges/bananas.

So ignore the other thread for the context of this specific thread.

A Windows-desktop-specific-issue totally taken out of context, since games render their own mouse cursors.
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Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Post by diakou » 18 Jan 2021, 18:31

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
18 Jan 2021, 18:14
diakou wrote:
18 Jan 2021, 16:17
Without remembering the specific details, I essentially read that it has to do with the mouse cursor itself being drawn in a way that allows G-Sync to affect it / not affect it. Which is why the mousefeel swings so much and also why it feels terrible @ lower Hz.
No, -- that was a separate topic.

There are many dominoes that mousefeel can be bad. But the Windows mouse cursor is a Windows thing. And launching a game in FSE, the game issues can also be a game thing.

Even if Windows was fixed, the games won't be, and vice-versa. Apples, meet oranges/bananas.

So ignore the other thread for the context of this specific thread.

A Windows-desktop-specific-issue totally taken out of context, since games render their own mouse cursors.
I know you made a similar topic - but it was not actually on blurbusters where I read that :P I'll see if I can scourge the internet for what I found.

Regarding the many dominoes that can make mousefeel bad - yes, obviously. But the absolute most consistent feedback I hear from people is less about "g-sync causes too much inputlag" these days. I assume those complaints were due to poor implementation by games or bad panels or simply refresh rates being too low as the perceived lag of consistent 6.94ms in 144Hz vs "the perceived" lower lag of tearing "advantage" through v-sync off @ very high framerates didn't feel good for competitive players. But nowadays with 240Hz monitors the complaint is that it affects mouse feel too much. I don't think its necessarily due to some games doing it right and some games are not. But yes, in direct comparison of games such as PUBG and CSGO that would be a very clear distinction with old vs new and different methods of implementation, especially the fact that CSGO can just push tons of frames whilst PUBG cannot, there's a clear usecase difference, but that argument should hold up with PUBG vs Apex Legends, but from my knowledge it does not. There's probably a more direct answer to the disdain of G-Sync/Freesync even with 240Hz monitors. I mean, that's me excluding the fact that it might just be due to game engine implementation of sync intervals and compatibility with g-sync. Three other games I hear complaints about in is Apex Legends, Overwatch & Rocket League.

Speaking of that - I do have a slightly off-topic question that I wasn't really able to answer to a recently graduated comp sci friend of mine;
He asked;
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I'm fairly certain my brain is too blocked at this moment because the answer to this should be fairly simple / I'm fairly sure most games do some sort of implementation like this I think? I don't know why I couldn't wrap my head around to give a simple answer. If you've got any knowledge, would be nice to hear for a clean explanation.

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