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Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Posted: 26 Apr 2017, 14:08
by RealNC
You also need to consider inconsistencies in mouse input handling between different refresh rates and different amounts of CPU and/or GPU load, and also GPU drivers behaving differently when the GPU is being maxed out. Overwatch had lots of people reporting input lag increase at high frame rates. Blizzard responded at some point (but the post has been removed now; I think they either purge or move old threads), but the Internet Archive still has it:
Thanks for all the feedback. I can give you a little bit more information about the details of input lag.
We use only unadjusted raw input for our input handling (except when in the UI) as is common for FPS's. We also do a few other things to try to minimize input lag (sample input at the latest possible moment, minimize allowable buffered frames in the driver, etc).
However, we have noticed that if the GPU gets bogged down, input lag will be a little bit worse because the driver will start to buffer a frame and there can be a frame buffered in our game (we have a multi-threaded renderer that has a frame in submission to the GPU while we simulate the next frame). In those cases if you want to prefer less input lag over visual quality you can reduce your graphics detail settings to ensure you get the quickest path from sampled input to result on screen.
Lowering the details in Overwatch resulted in hitting the internal FPS cap of the game, so GPU load was reduced.

I think it's still beneficial to cap your frame rate even in games where you get high frame rates. At very high frame rates (400FPS and up) it doesn't make a difference. 1 frame at 400FPS is not worth mentioning. But 1 frame at 200FPS is somewhat significant. If your PC maxes out at less than 200FPS and even though your minimal FPS is still in that ballbark (160-ish for example), then a cap might actually improve input lag.

Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Posted: 26 Apr 2017, 19:46
by Chief Blur Buster
Caps can easily improve lag for GSYNC and VSYNC ON situations

However, caps improving VSYNC OFF lag is not common -- and if so, I think it is hugely dependant on the game. Uncapped framerates will often have less input lag during VSYNC OFF situations.

A major use of a cap at high framerate such as fps_max 300 and fps_max 500 is to help framerates stay more consistent, since there's a latency yo-yo effect from framerates going all over the place in uncapped-framerate situations. Yo-Yoing from 250fps to 1000fps and back is a 3ms frametime-induced lag difference, big enough to throw off precision flick aiming in low-lag-jitter situations (Quake, CS:GO). And historically, there are situations -- multithreaded games -- where uncapped framerates may cause other threads to starve (e.g. input reads getting slowed down, etc). But in the era of quad-core i7, this is far less likely to happen.

Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Posted: 26 Apr 2017, 20:43
by RealNC
Well, I'm going from what Blizzard said here, that maxing out the GPU made the driver start buffering a frame.

Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Posted: 07 Aug 2020, 19:04
by IIISLIDEIII
RealNC wrote:
07 Apr 2017, 13:43
Professionals play with v-sync off and want very high frame rates. (I'll overlook the fact here that there's no professional WoW players, so I don't know what they're all about.)

The esport game I'm familiar with is Counter-Strike. People play with 300FPS or more (500FPS is not uncommon in big LAN tournaments). This is completely outside the G-Sync range. When playing a game with money and a career being at stake, professionals want every last little benefit they can get, no matter how minuscule of an advantage it gives them. G-Sync operates within the monitor's refresh rates, so that means lower FPS, and it introduces a small amount of input lag*, so it's not an option for most pros.

G-Sync's point is to make games more enjoyable by reducing stutter, getting rid of vsync input lag, and eliminating tearing at the same time. Professionals don't care about "enjoyable", they care about performing better. Driving a Formula 1 car for example is not an enjoyable experience. Quite the opposite. You need special training to even be able to endure it. G-Sync is more like a luxury Mercedes, designed for enjoyment and comfort.

It should be noted that many pro gamers DO have g-sync monitors. They just don't activate G-Sync in their games.

* G-Sync has greatly reduced input lag compared to vsync, but it's still not as low as vsync off.
I bring up this interesting thread by asking a question:
we know that gsync introduces slight input lag, are there any tests showing if there are lag differences between native gsync with module and compatible gsync?

Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Posted: 07 Aug 2020, 20:58
by jorimt
IIISLIDEIII wrote:
07 Aug 2020, 19:04
we know that gsync introduces slight input lag, are there any tests showing if there are lag differences between native gsync with module and compatible gsync?
G-SYNC doesn't introduce (or "add") input lag, but instead, it doesn't reduce input lag as much as V-SYNC off can. There's a difference between "adding" and "not further reducing."

VRR has the lowest single frame, no-tear delivery possible. Any lower input lag would require tearing.

As for an input lag difference between native G-SYNC and G-SYNC compatible, in like-for-like situations, not that is known, no. And with the way VRR works, there shouldn't be, assuming both are properly configured.

Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Posted: 08 Aug 2020, 05:23
by IIISLIDEIII
jorimt wrote:
07 Aug 2020, 20:58
IIISLIDEIII wrote:
07 Aug 2020, 19:04
we know that gsync introduces slight input lag, are there any tests showing if there are lag differences between native gsync with module and compatible gsync?
G-SYNC doesn't introduce (or "add") input lag, but instead, it doesn't reduce input lag as much as V-SYNC off can. There's a difference between "adding" and "not further reducing."

VRR has the lowest single frame, no-tear delivery possible. Any lower input lag would require tearing.

As for an input lag difference between native G-SYNC and G-SYNC compatible, in like-for-like situations, not that is known, no. And with the way VRR works, there shouldn't be, assuming both are properly configured.
thank you for the answer, you are right but maybe I expressed myself badly.
Gsync doesn't add lag, but using gsync involves using at least one frame cap and usually any cap adds lag.

gsync syncs frames, anything below that sync time does not mean less delay, but swallows part of a frame and introduces tearing, player sees slight tearing but feels like their gameplay is more responsive, faster.

having to wait for the synchronization is the most correct and natural way to play but for many players not having to wait for the completion give a perception of greater reactivity.

several pro players do not use gsync not only to keep the framerate as high as possible outside the panel refresh fq, but also in cases where the game does not allow fps to go beyond the panel fq.
I'll explain:
if on the "x" game is possibile work at 350 fps, pro player not use gsync, leave free frames without any cap or vrr added, I understand that in this case the aim is to lower the lag as much as possible thanks to the increase in fps
But
If the game is heavier and less allows fps and a framerate that remains very often within the panel update fq without exceeding it, for example playing on a 240hz monitor at a game where the fps oscillate between 180 and 240, even in in this case the overwhelming pro player does not activate gsync, it continues to keep free frames and no active synchronization, why?

Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Posted: 08 Aug 2020, 08:45
by jorimt
IIISLIDEIII wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 05:23
Gsync doesn't add lag, but using gsync involves using at least one frame cap and usually any cap adds lag.
This depends...

While not all comp games have an in-game limiter available, and some that do are unusable (i.e. CoD Warzone), many of the main comp games (CS:GO, Overwatch, etc) do have in-game limiters that can actually reduce input lag over uncapped.

As for external limiters like RTSS, they only add up to 1 frame of input lag over an in-game limiter, not over uncapped, which can actually be laggier if you're GPU-limited (though, admittedly, this is rare in many comp games at high framerates + minimum settings).
IIISLIDEIII wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 05:23
If the game is heavier and less allows fps and a framerate that remains very often within the panel update fq without exceeding it, for example playing on a 240hz monitor at a game where the fps oscillate between 180 and 240, even in in this case the overwhelming pro player does not activate gsync, it continues to keep free frames and no active synchronization, why?
You'd have to ask the pro players. Because you're right, at 240Hz, for framerates within the refresh rate, G-SYNC is potentially a superior experience over V-SYNC off, especially since the input lag in that scenario between the two methods at that refresh rate are virtually the same:

https://blurbusters.com/gsync/gsync101- ... ettings/6/
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However, people tend to use what they're used to, regardless of facts. There's also a superstitious aspect to using V-SYNC off. After all, not all pro-gamers are technically minded.

That said, we should all be able to use what makes each of us feel most comfortable, and honestly, whether you use G-SYNC or V-SYNC off in a comp environment ultimately comes down to a matter of preference at 240Hz+, as the overall "feel" from frame delivery differences between the two methods can actually have more impact than the raw input lag difference at that point.

Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Posted: 08 Aug 2020, 08:59
by IIISLIDEIII
jorimt wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 08:45
IIISLIDEIII wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 05:23
Gsync doesn't add lag, but using gsync involves using at least one frame cap and usually any cap adds lag.
This depends...

While not all comp games have an in-game limiter available, and some that do are unusable (i.e. CoD Warzone), many of the main comp games (CS:GO, Overwatch, etc) do have in-game limiters that can actually reduce input lag over uncapped.

As for external limiters like RTSS, they only add up to 1 frame of input lag over an in-game limiter, not over uncapped, which can actually be laggier if you're GPU-limited (though, admittedly, this is rare in many comp games at high framerates + minimum settings).
IIISLIDEIII wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 05:23
If the game is heavier and less allows fps and a framerate that remains very often within the panel update fq without exceeding it, for example playing on a 240hz monitor at a game where the fps oscillate between 180 and 240, even in in this case the overwhelming pro player does not activate gsync, it continues to keep free frames and no active synchronization, why?
You'd have to ask the pro players. Because you're right, at 240Hz, for framerates within the refresh rate, G-SYNC is potentially a superior experience over V-SYNC off, especially since the input lag in that scenario between the two methods at that refresh rate are virtually the same:

https://blurbusters.com/gsync/gsync101- ... ettings/6/
Image

However, people tend to use what they're used to, regardless of facts. There's also a superstitious aspect to using V-SYNC off. After all, not all pro-gamers are technically minded.

That said, we should all be able to use what makes each of us feel most comfortable, and honestly, whether you use G-SYNC or V-SYNC off in a comp environment ultimately comes down to a matter of preference at 240Hz+, as the overall "feel" from frame delivery differences between the two methods can actually have more impact than the raw input lag difference at that point.
thank you, you have been very kind.
Personally by keeping gsync and vsync off, I have the "feeling" of having more reactivity on the mouse, but as you say, it is very likely that it is my feeling, not a real decrease in lag

Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Posted: 08 Aug 2020, 11:25
by jorimt
IIISLIDEIII wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 08:59
Personally by keeping gsync and vsync off, I have the "feeling" of having more reactivity on the mouse, but as you say, it is very likely that it is my feeling, not a real decrease in lag
Again, regardless of raw input lag, the two can still have an overall different "feel," and that's what the settings are there for, after all, user choice.

G-SYNC is an excellent option, but just that; an "option."

Re: Why do Pro gamers not use G-Sync?

Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 14:15
by speancer
jorimt wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 11:25
IIISLIDEIII wrote:
08 Aug 2020, 08:59
Personally by keeping gsync and vsync off, I have the "feeling" of having more reactivity on the mouse, but as you say, it is very likely that it is my feeling, not a real decrease in lag
Again, regardless of raw input lag, the two can still have an overall different "feel," and that's what the settings are there for, after all, user choice.

G-SYNC is an excellent option, but just that; an "option."
I agree with IIISLIDEIII on that one. I've been testing this on 240 Hz native G-SYNC monitor and no sync feels the best to me in CS:GO. You can't deny that no sync is superior overall, with the least possible lag that can be achieved. There is a small difference between G-SYNC and no sync with no fps limit.
jorimt wrote:
24 Jul 2020, 08:08

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