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Blur Buster's G-SYNC 101 Series Discussion

Talk about NVIDIA G-SYNC, a variable refresh rate (VRR) technology. G-SYNC eliminates stutters, tearing, and reduces input lag. List of G-SYNC Monitors.

Re: Blur Buster's G-SYNC 101 Series Discussion

Postby RealNC » 26 Jun 2017, 16:47

At low framerates with vsync off, tearing and microstutter gets worse, and overall image quality just suffers. There's no difference in motion blur, but since everything gets worse, so does the overall subjective quality.

Once you get to very high FPS, the image seems to "clear up", because tearing and microstutter go away. The image seems "clearer" just due to that. Everything is perceived as being better.

In my own experience, 144FPS unsynced feels way worse than 300FPS unsynced (as you would expect, and just like you described yourself.) However, 141FPS G-Synced feels very close to 300FPS unsynced. There is still a small difference to the mouse feel, but I can't tell if it feels better or worse. Could be placebo, I don't know. Or it could be the result of the 2-3ms difference. But I doubt it. No human should be able to feel a 3ms difference in mouse response. I suspect it's that the tearing of unsynced frames, no matter how high the frame rate, have been embedded into my brain after playing CS for many years with vsync off. It seems my brain is trained for it, and something feels off if the effect is not there. Initially, with g-sync CS:GO felt "too smooth", "too perfect". Which is an oxymoron. How can something be "too perfect" to be good?

But I think I'm adapting to CS with g-sync. It feels more natural now, and going back to 300FPS unsynced does not result in me thinking that it feels better anymore.

However, this is only for G-Sync/Freesync. If you don't have such a monitor, 144FPS is not going to be good. The higher the better. 200FPS is about the minimum I can tolerate, 300FPS is where it starts getting really good.
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Re: Blur Buster's G-SYNC 101 Series Discussion

Postby jorimt » 26 Jun 2017, 17:01

Right, <144 FPS V-SYNC OFF on a 144HZ display is not optimal in any situation. In fact, V-SYNC OFF anywhere below the refresh rate at any Hz is probably one of the worst frame delivery experiences you can have. If I didn't have G-SYNC, and I couldn't sustain framerates very high above my refresh rate, I'd opt for your V-SYNC + RTSS decimal limit instead.

The extra few ms reduction afforded by 144HZ + V-SYNC OFF + 300 FPS over G-SYNC + 141 In-game FPS limit is probably justifiable for competitive or pro gaming, but for the average gamer, I guess it just comes down to preference.

I myself prefer G-SYNC for its rock solid consistency in frame delivery in that specific scenario with zero tearing and no stutter/microstutter over the very slight possible input latency advantage V-SYNC OFF can afford.
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Re: Blur Buster's G-SYNC 101 Series Discussion

Postby monitor_butt » 26 Jun 2017, 23:19

Alright, thanks guys, you've convinced me. I'm going to give G-Sync another try for a week with the recommended settings in the guide. :D
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Re: Blur Buster's G-SYNC 101 Series Discussion

Postby lexlazootin » 27 Jun 2017, 09:16

It kind of amazes me to this day that people still don't appreciate G-Sync and/or variable refresh technology or understand what it is. People tend to think that it's V-Sync or something or it's just some gimmick that they will never use. It just blows my mind.

I remember watching a John Carmack talk a few years ago and he was talking about G-Sync and how it worked, he was explaining how the monitor would refresh when the frame was completed and i was blown away. He pretty much convinced me to get my first gaming monitor which i had to spend 200usd shipping from amazon since they didn't have any here in Australia. It has probably been one of my best purchases of all time.

I currently spend my time speedrunning HL. HL is capped at 100fps and G-Sync just makes it such a treat to play, some runners have G-Sync monitors but don't use G-Sync... It drives me crazy.
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Re: Blur Buster's G-SYNC 101 Series Discussion

Postby jorimt » 27 Jun 2017, 09:39

monitor_butt wrote:Alright, thanks guys, you've convinced me. I'm going to give G-Sync another try for a week with the recommended settings in the guide. :D

Whether you use G-SYNC all the time or no, the great thing about a G-SYNC display, is you have the option of a standard fixed high refresh rate, G-SYNC, and strobed (ULMB) monitor all-in-one.

Another thing to consider, is due to their need for a real-time frame scanout for VRR adjustments, G-SYNC monitors tend to have less display lag than standard, non-VRR gaming monitors of similar refresh rate/specs.

As lexlazootin mentioned, you also have the benefit of lower refresh rate, lower framerate G-SYNC on higher refresh rate displays (which V-SYNC OFF and V-SYNC can never replicate), so even if you don't use G-SYNC 100% of the time, there really is no downside to owning a G-SYNC monitor; it's as flexible as it gets.
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Re: Blur Buster's G-SYNC 101 Series Discussion

Postby RealNC » 27 Jun 2017, 16:59

Chief Blur Buster wrote:Emulators might achieve less average input lag than the original 8-bit machines

Which is needed, even. I don't think even the fastest LCD monitors can match a CRT's input lag, right? Reducing latency this way should at least bring total button-to-pixels lag down to levels comparable with CRT + original hardware.

CRT input lag is basically 0, right? The fastest LCD monitors are usually still over 10ms?
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Re: Blur Buster's G-SYNC 101 Series Discussion

Postby jorimt » 27 Jun 2017, 17:18

The best G-SYNC monitors are closer to <4ms, to the best of my knowledge.
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Re: Blur Buster's G-SYNC 101 Series Discussion

Postby monitor_butt » 28 Jun 2017, 01:09

jorimt wrote:
monitor_butt wrote:Alright, thanks guys, you've convinced me. I'm going to give G-Sync another try for a week with the recommended settings in the guide. :D

Whether you use G-SYNC all the time or no, the great thing about a G-SYNC display, is you have the option of a standard fixed high refresh rate, G-SYNC, and strobed (ULMB) monitor all-in-one.

Another thing to consider, is due to their need for a real-time frame scanout for VRR adjustments, G-SYNC monitors tend to have less display lag than standard, non-VRR gaming monitors of similar refresh rate/specs.

As lexlazootin mentioned, you also have the benefit of lower refresh rate, lower framerate G-SYNC on higher refresh rate displays (which V-SYNC OFF and V-SYNC can never replicate), so even if you don't use G-SYNC 100% of the time, there really is no downside to owning a G-SYNC monitor; it's as flexible as it gets.


Yes, it's a great feature being able to set your games specifically with your preferred refresh method. I always just had it just disabled though, as I preferred an uncapped FPS, and G-Sync has a small flicker delay when you go in/out of fullscreen, at least on my S24.

If your refresh rate is different in-game than desktop, you get a flicker.
If your resolution is different in-game than desktop, you get a flicker.
If you have G-Sync enabled, you get a flicker.

When you have all 3, you get a significant delay when alt+tabbing. When you have refresh rate and resolution matched with G-Sync disabled, Alt+tab out of games in insanely fast.
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Re: Blur Buster's G-SYNC 101 Series Discussion

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 28 Jun 2017, 10:06

RealNC wrote:CRT input lag is basically 0, right? The fastest LCD monitors are usually still over 10ms?

Not anymore.

jorimt is correct, the fastest LCDs are only 2-4ms behind. Most of that is attributed to GtG and the digitalness of the digital cable (which has about 1ms more lag than converterless analog cables).

All my TN gaming monitors that I have, consistently break the 10ms barrier since around 2014 (screen top edge, Leo Bodnar tester). But remember some sites like DisplayLag.com measure to screen centre, so even a 60Hz CRT show 8-9ms lag when measured via Leo Bodnar screen-centre method (half of a 1/60sec = 16.7ms scanout). Their fastest LCDs are less than 4ms slower than that.

So whenever you stare at DisplayLag.com numbers, rememember that a CRT is 8-9ms lag via LEO BODNAR SCREEN CENTRE test method as your point of reference of theoretical minimum-possible DisplayLag.com numbers.

That's still perfectly valid.

Multiple lag-test methodologies are valid:
Why Screen Centre Testing is Done: It also represents average screen lag.
Why Screen Top Edge is Done Too: It represents best-case lag.

Scanout lag (where bottom edge is one refresh cycle behind top edge) -- creates a lot of confusion and asymmetry in comparing lag measurements, since SMTT 2.0 measurements (TFTCentral) do not directly map to Leo Bodnar measurements (DisplayLag). Very roughly, SMTT 2.0 at 1080p@60Hz can be roughly comparable to top-edge Leo Bodnar measurements but there's still a few (low single-digit) millisecond error margin when you do that.

We are going to write a lot more about lag subtopics, including scanout lag in the future. Even about scanout symmetry with game output (e.g. why does VSYNC OFF create average input lag that's identical for top/bottom edges), etc. In both simple & advanced articles.

Only infinite-framerate VSYNC OFF, combined with realtime scanout (e.g. CRT), can be truly zero-lag where the pixels are currently being refreshed. There's always a scanout-lag factor, and top-bottom scanout-lag asymmetry exists for full frame scanout (VSYNC ON, GSYNC, FreeSync) that gets smaller at higher refresh rates (faster scanouts).
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Re: Blur Buster's G-SYNC 101 Series Discussion

Postby RealNC » 28 Jun 2017, 14:37

Yeah, it gets a bit confusing when looking up latency test results. I was under the impression that we're looking at a 10ms minimum latency between CRT and most g-sync LCDs, with a few ultra-low latency outliers that only show a difference of about 4ms (like the PG258Q).

However, considering the testing methodologies, it would seem that most are actually within 5ms, and only a couple monitors have almost CRT-level of latency (~1ms).
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