G-SYNC introduces motion blur (unrelated to smooth frames)

Talk about NVIDIA G-SYNC, a variable refresh rate (VRR) technology. G-SYNC eliminates stutters, tearing, and reduces input lag. List of G-SYNC Monitors.
Post Reply
User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11648
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

G-SYNC introduces motion blur (unrelated to smooth frames)

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 12 Dec 2017, 20:01

gabber wrote:Hi,

So, I got myself a Dell S2716DG, A05 version. Gamma settings suck, but tweakable, otherwise a pretty nice monitor with good colors for a TN.

Now to the good part - why I can't use Gsync at all. For me it creates a pretty significant motion blur, which is very heavy on my eyes and creates a some sort of eye strain (starts to hurt after a while, feels like there is some pressure in my eyes, I feel little dizzy while playing). When I set overdrive to fast, it becomes really playable, but then there is another issue - really bad ghosting on objects, which is nothing new, although my old 2720Z has way less ghosting artifacts than Dell, but here you go again, not an option.

I also tried G-Sync + ULBM hack, which was sort of nice, but it created flicker, which just couldn't be ignored, it was very apparent in left upper corner

So now, I'm stuck with this Dell monitor and what I only like about it - excellent coating and high resolution, but gsync really f***** sucks more than it really helps. And I can't go for any other monitor, since it's already "last resort" and I really don't want heavier coating for 1440p resolution. I thought about buying 2730Z, but this monitor has higher pixel response time and no gsync, and it's only 80€ less where I live + the coating is worse than Dell's, so I'm getting really efing sad right now - what's really the point on gsync then, if it creates motion blur?

Can anyone help my situation or help me understand what the F is going on? Should I stop searching for G-Sync monitors forever? I'm really susceptible to motion blur (always lower or turn off it in games, post processing too) and I really see slow pixel response times, that's why I also cannot go for an IPS panel :(

If nothing can be done regarding gsync motion blur issue, I would like to go for a good 1440p screen and forget gsync ever existed, but there are no better monitors with 1440p for gaming with same coating as Dell's and IPS pixel response compared to TN is really bad, so with IPS monitor I would get probably the same motion blur, which I'm getting with gsync right now...
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11648
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: G-SYNC introduces motion blur (unrelated to smooth frame

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 12 Dec 2017, 20:02

Blurfree motion nirvana is achieved via framerate = refreshrate = stroberate.

The arcade-smooth motion, like a Sega Model 3 game.
The butter-like CRT Nintendo scrolling effect.
The old-school supersmooth 60fps console platformer scroll effect.
Perfect blur-free stutter-free motion requires the triple lock framerate = refreshrate = stroberate.

Framerate: Extremely hard with powerful GPU. You need a fast GPU
Refreshrate: You are stuck with refresh rates that ULMB supports. Use lower ULMB Hz
Stroberate: You are stuck with refresh rates that ULMB supports Use lower ULMB Hz

If supersmooth blurfree motion is your numero uno priority, even with a minor input lag compromise, then, the recipe is:

1. Turn VSYNC ON and G-SYNC off.
2. Lower refresh rate to 85Hz or 100Hz
3. Turn on ULMB.
4. Run your game.
5. Adjust detail level to somewhat lower to prevent framedrops.
6. If you replace your monitor, get 1080p instead of 1440p to reach motion nirvana more easily.

Do not run at framerates half stroberate, or you get double-images, like CRT 30fps@60Hz or LightBoost 60fps@120Hz.

85Hz ULMB VSYNC ON will be pretty smooth in 90% of games. If you're using a 240Hz monitor, your ULMB minimum is 100Hz but you can use the ULMB hacks to achieve ULMB refresh rates anywhere from ~60Hz through ~155Hz on some newer 240Hz G-SYNC monitors. The lower the Hz, the easier you will be able to match framerate. If you can tolerate consistent 75 Hz flicker (instead of GSYNC+ULMB variable flicker), then use the ULMB hack to get 75Hz ULMB (works on monitors that supports the 60Hz and VRR hacks, including all current 240Hz G-SYNC monitors).

Also, test your keyboard vs mouse. Is mouse turn left/right more microstuttery than keyboard strafe left/right? If so, fix your mouse & mouse pad too. Mouse microstutter is a weak link. See Blur Busters Mouse Guide.

Virtual reality games are now aiming at framerate = refreshrate = stroberate. That's what Oculus 90Hz and Vive 90Hz now does with their low-persistence OLEDs, and that's why VR systems have so demanding specifications (SSD, CPU, GPU, RAM), minimize all possible freezing, in order to achieve distraction-free motion nirvana. You will need to spec your system similarly, pretending as if you are beefing up for VR, and then use ULMB 85Hz instead with an external monitor.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11648
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: G-SYNC introduces motion blur (unrelated to smooth frame

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 12 Dec 2017, 20:03

Some of us are more sensitive to stutter than blur. That's why G-SYNC is good...
Some of us are more sensitive to blur than stutter. That's why ULMB is good...

But for those few people super-sensitive to both simultaneously....double-ouch.
And if you're super-sensitive to lag too, and can only play eSports with a CRT, then triple-ouch!
Or if you are also flicker-sensitive too....quadruple-ouch (but blurfree sample-and-hold is coming in the 2020s).
I totally understand!

It's very hard to have cake and eat it too, but I've provided a cooking recipe for this.
Hope you can nail the motion nirvana in the specific games you play!
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11648
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: G-SYNC introduces motion blur (unrelated to smooth frame

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 12 Dec 2017, 20:03

gabber wrote:
Chief Blur Buster wrote: Some of us are more sensitive to stutter than blur. That's why G-SYNC is good...
Some of us are more sensitive to blur than stutter. That's why ULMB is good...

But for those few people super-sensitive to both simultaneously....double-ouch.
And if you're super-sensitive to lag too, then triple-ouch.
I totally understand!

It's very hard to have cake and eat it too, but I've provided a cooking recipe for this.
Hope you can nail the motion nirvana in the specific games you play!
I got 1080 Ti, high framerate isn't an issue. No vertical sync on high framerate is also not an issue. Why I needed gsync, was that games like PUBG like to drop frames from 120 to 70-80s or even below 60s really fast and then you get really big stutter with very short screen freezes. I sometimes like to be a competetive player, any motion blur is really bad and inconsistent performance is not acceptable too.

Using ULBM is also not a very good option, I can see flicker, which is very distracting for the game immersion itself (on 85hz screen flickering is pretty insane, feels like looking at old 50Hz CRT TV). So ULBM is really outta picture.

I do also wonder, could 1440p resolution give me some sort of bigger motion blur than 1080p on same 27" screen? I feel it somewhat more, dunno
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11648
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: G-SYNC introduces motion blur (unrelated to smooth frame

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 12 Dec 2017, 20:05

The Blur Busters Law
minimum 1 pixel of motion blur per 1ms of persistence per 1000 pixels/second

Unfortunately it is as immutable as speed of light, the Pi constant, etc. Any extra blur can occur due to slow LCD GtG. But this gives you the guaranteed minimum amoutn of motion blurring.

Non-flicker tech, sample-and-hold (e.g. GSYNC)
Persistence is refresh cycle length

2000 pixels/sec panning (1 screenwidth per second at 1920x1080) at 60fps = (2000/60) = 33 pixels of motion blur trail
4000 pixels/sec panning (1 screenwidth per second at 3840x2160) at 60fps = (4000/60) = 66 pixels of motion blur trail
500 pixel/sec panning at 100fps = (500/100) = 5 pixels of motion blur trail
etc.

Flicker tech (e.g. ULMB/CRT), assuming framerates match refreshrate (doesn't matter Hz)
Persistence is strobe flash length

Default strobe flash lengths are commonly 2 milliseconds on most LightBoost/ULMB
2000 pixels/sec panning at ULMB PW100% (~2ms strobe flash) ULMB = 2000/2 = 4 pixels of motion blur trail
4000 pixels/sec panning at ULMB PW100% (~2ms strobe flash) ULMB = 4000/2 = 2 pixels of motion blur trail
Pulse Width setting reduces motion blur during fast panning....It's adjustable persistence
2000 pixels/sec panning at ULMB PW100% (~2ms strobe flash) ULMB = 2000/2 = 1 pixels of motion blur trail
4000 pixels/sec panning at ULMB PW50% (~1ms strobe flash) ULMB = 4000/2 = 2 pixels of motion blur trail

Conclusion
  • Higher resolution gives more motion blur for same physical motion speed (inches per second) due to higher ppi
  • For Strobed, assuming framerate=Hz
    ........Shorter strobe flashes gives less motion blur.
    ........Persistence is strobe flash length.
    ........Multi-image side effects if framerate<Hz
  • For Non-Strobed, assuming framerate=Hz
    ........Higher framerates higher Hz gives less motion blur
    ........Persistence is frame visibility time (if framerate<Hz)
    ........Also means persistence is refresh cycle length (if framerate=Hz)
  • There is no solution for low-framerate games.
Farther Future Stuff: Strobeless ULMB / Blurfree Sample-and-Hold!
If you hate blur and strobing, you will need to wait a few years to a decade for the magic pieces to combine.
......."strobeless ULMB" and "blurfree sample-and-hold" experience. We've seen lab experiments and it works! Blurless and strobeless simultaneously requires ultra-high framerates at ultra-high Hz. Basically, at least 480fps@480Hz (2ms persistence) or 1000fps@1000Hz (1ms persistence). We were the world's first website to test 480Hz.
.......Blur Busters predicts commercial 480Hz monitors by ~2020 and commercial 1000Hz monitors by ~2025. Homebrew beat manufacturers to 240Hz in 2013 and also 480Hz in 2017. We expect homebrew 1000Hz by ~2020.
.......Ultra-high Hz will will likely require Frame Rate Amplification Technologies (lagless Timewarping/Reprojection/Geometry-aware 3D interpolation) as future descendants of Oculus' 45fps->90fps ultra-low-lag framerate interpolator. We expect that this will help fix low-framerate issues, given the right descendant technologies.[/list]

Note: This post is copyright BlurBusters.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11648
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: G-SYNC introduces motion blur (unrelated to smooth frame

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 12 Dec 2017, 20:06

gabber wrote:Is there a point for me going for 24.5" 240Hz 1080p G-Sync monitor then? Would I find my nirvana there? PPI ofc would be a bit better than 27" with a loss of higher screen immersion, but G-Sync would work way better then creating less blur issues and higher fps would elimiminate blur as we know it? Or 240Hz monitors have their own issues, like bad pixel response time, which could render high Hz useless?

I'm thinking of buying 24.5" Dell Alienware AW2518H monitor then, price really dropped.
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

User avatar
Chief Blur Buster
Site Admin
Posts: 11648
Joined: 05 Dec 2013, 15:44
Location: Toronto / Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: G-SYNC introduces motion blur (unrelated to smooth frame

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 12 Dec 2017, 20:08

gabber, if reading this -- please re-register.
(A server backup was restored, which affected a mere 3 accounts, and your account was one of them)


There will be more motion blur on all 144Hz monitors than your 240Hz monitor.

Also, the same motion at 1440p will blur over more pixels than at 1080p -- the vicious circle is that the higher the resolution, the more dramatic motion blur is (relative to non-moving images).

You might prefer to use a higher resolution (1440p) but it won't help your motion blur to go to a lower Hz. You could try, but based on what you've told me already, I think you will like it less. (At least this is my prediction: I could be wrong: You could give it a try).
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

Image
Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
  3. ALWAYS respect indie testers here. See how indies are bootstrapping Blur Busters research!

User avatar
Gabber
Posts: 1
Joined: 16 Dec 2017, 03:37

Re: G-SYNC introduces motion blur (unrelated to smooth frame

Post by Gabber » 16 Dec 2017, 03:44

Ok, one thing I know for sure now - 24 and 25" monitor is just too smal for me, there is 27" 240hz, but its 1080p, so again, no point in switching from 144hz to the same rezolution and extra 100hz... I wish there was some 2300x1300 resolution just with less pixels that 1440p but just enough to make a clear picture.. Not sure what can I buy now, there is dell 120hz ultrawide 35"-something - I was wondering if bigger screen with 1440p would have less motion blur than 27" with 1440p? Ofc there is other issue that this dell uses IPS screen, which might not help motion blur either..

Post Reply