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Motion Flicker / Double Images

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Motion Flicker / Double Images

Postby Kanone » 07 Dec 2018, 16:58

Hello,
I'm new to this forum, this is my first topic and i'm not english so excuse me if i post this in the wrong place and for my bad english.

So, I have the asus VG248QE monitor which is really cool to be honest, but i have a question. I play a game called '' kingdom come deliverance '' at 30fps@60hz. The '' issue '' is that when i move the camera I can clearly see a double image on the corner of objects and characters who vibrates relatively quickly.
I made a video so that you better understand what I'm talking about : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3NvDQPbmQ0
The effect is more noticeable in real time obviously.

So my question is : is there a way to no longer have this effect of duplication of images and vibrations ? I know it happens because i play in 30fps@60hz but still this effect is clearly less noticeable on consoles and when i see some gameplay of this game at 30fps ( pc ) on youtube i don't see this effect at all. Its very disturbing when I play honestly.

And I can't play at 60fps with my config : i7 4790k - 16gbram DDR3 - GTX 970 - SSD. I prefer a strong 30fps ( Vsync 1/2 + RTSS ) than an unstable 60fps.

Also, when i play at 36fps ( 144hz Vsync 1/4 ) this effect is clearly less visible. Still here but less noticeable. Anyone can explain me why please ?

And is Gsync eliminate this effect when playing at 30fps ?

Thanks !
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Re: Motion Flicker / Double Images

Postby RealNC » 07 Dec 2018, 19:02

Short answer is: not really. It will eliminate judder, but 30FPS will still look rather stuttery.

However, what gsync will allow you to do is play at 40FPS or 45FPS. Or whatever your system is able to output. This will greatly improve the smoothness. You will no longer be limited to choose between 30 and 60. You can choose 40. Or 43. Or anything else.

Here's a simulation of how gsync will look like:

https://www.testufo.com/gsync

Make sure your browser has GPU acceleration enabled for this simulation to work correctly.
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Re: Motion Flicker / Double Images

Postby Kanone » 08 Dec 2018, 15:53

Mmh I see.
So this motion flicker / double images is normal and can not be eliminated unless playing at 50/60fps ( 60hz ) ? But honestly there is something weird to my eyes, why consoles games who run at 30 fps are way less impacted by this motion flicker than the same game on the same monitor/tv but on PC ?

Thanks for your reply :ugeek:
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Re: Motion Flicker / Double Images

Postby RealNC » 08 Dec 2018, 17:54

Probably because console games have motion blur enabled? This hides the problem. Does the 30FPS game you play have a motion blur option?
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Re: Motion Flicker / Double Images

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 08 Dec 2018, 23:29

Kanone wrote:So my question is : is there a way to no longer have this effect of duplication of images and vibrations ?


Both motion blur reduction and/or PWM dimming can create this artifact, if not adjusted correctly.

Image

Image

You're using the ASUS VG248QE, which has a PWM-dimming backlight.
So there are two possible issues here.

Any form of monitor flicker results in multi-image effects if flickerrate is not synchronized to framerate

(1) If you're using LightBoost motion blur reduction, you need frame rate = refresh rate. The LightBoost stroberate is 100 or 120, since LightBoost only works at 100Hz and 120Hz. This results in roughly 4 duplicate images at 30fps and roughly 2 duplicate images at 60fps.

(2) If you're not using LightBoost blur reduction, your monitor has PWM dimming. Early VG248QEs had a 432 Hz stroberate for 144Hz and 360 Hz stroberate for 120Hz. This results in 3 duplicate images at framerate matching refreshrate.

Solutions to fix this.

1. Disable blur reduction and use 100% brightness to disable PWM. If too bright, use NVIDIA Control Panel to dim a little.

2. Or purchase a new monitor with "PWM-free" dimming so you can dim/brighten your backlight without creating multi-image effects

3. Or upgrade to a GSYNC or FreeSync monitor so that random-like framerates look perfectly smooth. 47fps means it looks like perfectly smooth 47fps@47Hz. The monitor synchronizes refresh rate to frame rate, it's no longer necessary to worry about even divisors, since all random framerates can be made to look smooth, just like http://www.testufo.com/gsync

4. Or purchase motion blur reduction that can strobe at a lower Hz. Such as BenQ XL2411P which supports single-strobe 60Hz. (30Hz will be too low). For CRT motion clarity (moving images as perfectly sharp as stationary images) you will need framerate exactly matching refreshrate in a blur reduction mode.

If you don't play console games, you can do all of the above with a GSYNC monitor with ULMB. Motion is so much better on a GSYNC monitor, which are (A) GSYNC to smooth stutters, (B) has ULMB to eliminate motion blur, (C) are always PWM-free. Check out the GSYNC monitor list.

If you play console games and need good 60Hz motion blur reduction (and don't mind flicker), you'll want a single-strobe-capable monitor such as XL2411P which is compatible with the Blur Busters Strobe Utility.
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Re: Motion Flicker / Double Images

Postby Kanone » 09 Dec 2018, 09:10

That was a great answer chief. I suspected that motion blur reduction make this problem worse, because as i say i have the asus VG248QE monitor who have trace free technology. When I enable trace free the double images is way worse, but disabled its better. Even in movies.

I only play on PC btw, i don't have any consoles for the moment. So you recommend me to buy a Gsync monitor ? The slab of the vg248qe can be upggrade for a Gsync slab so that's cool.
And yes in the game that I showed you in the video there is a lot of motion blur ( objects or camera ), enabled its better sure but the motion flicker / double images is still clearly visible and that make the overall picture very .. vibrant. I tested to play this game on a low cost TV ( LCD ) who have a LOT of motion blur, that's way way better. So much better that i can hardly notice this problem, but the color/ contrast and sharpness are horrible. I also have a plasma TV but that's litterally unplayable, instead of the normal double images when i move the camera, that's a quadruple images :shock:.
For the moment the best is to play on my vg248qe who have the best balance between colors / contrast / motion blur and this horrible motion flicker. I will deal with it till i change for a Gsync monitor.

But again, why the same game on the same monitor but played with a console ( ps4 or xbox ) doesn't have this motion flicker ? The game is still played at 30fps so i don't understand why :roll:
And on my pc i make sure to enable Vsync 1/2 + lock to 30fps with RTSS.. so .. yes i don't understand why on console there is no motion flicker on the same game / same monitor.

Thank you for taking on your time. I understand a little better this problem thanks to you. And also i know my english is bad but i do my best ;)
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Re: Motion Flicker / Double Images

Postby RealNC » 09 Dec 2018, 19:43

The "trace free" feature has nothing to do with motion blur reduction. You are not using LightBoost, and thus the issue you see is completely unrelated. What you are seeing is not the strobing double image effect. You are just seeing normal 30FPS "frame-iness".

The PWM backlight flicker (monitors that don't advertise as "flicker-free" have that) is usually not enough to introduce a double image effect. I owned many PWM monitors, and spotting it requires very close examination and a trained eye. It's never something that sticks out the way you describe it. It's extremely subtle and you really, really need to look close and have specially crafted tests to see it (testufo.com is a good test and you might be able to spot it, but in games it's borderline impossible to see it.)

You said you use 1/2 vsync. Are you sure it works? Disable the RTSS limiter (set it to 0 to disable it.) Does the RTSS OSD still say 30FPS? If not, then 1/2 vsync is NOT working, and this might explain what you're seeing. At 60Hz, 1/2 vsync results in 30FPS. If you get higher than 30, that means 1/2 vsync does not work.
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Re: Motion Flicker / Double Images

Postby Kanone » 10 Dec 2018, 11:06

But the trace free feature reduce the motion blur on my monitor. I'm 200% sure of that. Even my friends, who are very casual gamers, see this when i show them my monitor. So i don't know what happens ^^', but anyway that's not the subject. My eyes are very very sensitive in reality, i have 11/10. And i would not created a topic if what i see was just placebo ^^'. To me it don't require a very close examination tbh.

Yes Vsync 1/2 work 100%. Vsync 1/2 don't reduce this effect, it only give a perfect frame pacing at 30fps. You can play with normal Vsync or Half Vsync the motion flicker will be exactly the same because the monitor will still be at 60hz, he just simulate 30hz for the frame pacing. Half Vsync is only useful for the frame pacing so, not for what i showed in the video.
When i have tested the game on my plasma TV its ridiculous, its like i see everything in quadrupled when i move the camera slowly. BUT on my LCD TV its totally fine. And my LCD monitor is between the two, its tolerable but not optimal.

You say i see the normal 30fps '' frame-iness ''. You are maybe right yes, i don't really know. But honestly the effect looks exaggerated to my eyes, really. I was a console gamer before to switch to pc and i was never be bothered by this.

Also i can't get a good frame pacing at 60fps in first person game, like the game in the video. Even if i have a stable 60fps the control feel very .. erratic. Even with a stable 60fps + Vsync + RTSS 60. I put a fps counter and I can see the framerate fluctuate between 60 and 62fps all the time even if i have locked the game to 60fps with RTSS. And RTSS work, i try to lock to 50/40/30 and it just work.
All games who are not in first person are perfect at 60fps. But Elder Scrolls games, kingdom come deliverance.. wont be smooth at 60fps its so annoying. Maybe I'm too perfectionist and I'm asking too much, i don't know ^^'.

Anyway, i will deal with all that before I make my own pc ( this one is a preassembled pc, asus g20aj but i upgraded it for an i7 4790k 16gb ram and 1 SSD ).

Thanks again for the information, it help me a lot and that's very interresting. And sorry if I ask too much question :oops:


Edit : I post two video to show exactly what i'm talking about, to make sure you understand what I'm talking about. The videos are not from me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcimUTRF_nE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzJibOnfngM
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Re: Motion Flicker / Double Images

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 10 Dec 2018, 14:19

Kanone wrote:But the trace free feature reduce the motion blur on my monitor. I'm 200% sure of that. Even my friends, who are very casual gamers, see this when i show them my monitor. So i don't know what happens ^^', but anyway that's not the subject.

Both of you are correct to an extent
1. While RealNC is correct you are not using blur reduction features.
2. Trace Free does definitely affect motion blur on a coarse extent.

For example, ghosting versus coronas can appear/disappear, making images look much clearer.
Image
Image

However, the blur reduction modes (e.g. LightBoost) that RealNC refers to, can have much more dramatic effect than trace free features. ULMB and other blur reduction modes eliminate 10x to 100x more motion blur than Trace Free does -- if configured to their best.
Image
For more information, see Motion Blur Reduction FAQ, though for best performance, requires framerates matching refresh rates (120fps at 120Hz) to get that CRT motion clarity look-and-feel with zero jitteriness / zero stutter.

Kanone wrote:Also i can't get a good frame pacing at 60fps in first person game, like the game in the video. Even if i have a stable 60fps the control feel very .. erratic. Even with a stable 60fps + Vsync + RTSS 60.

1. Do you get the exact same erraticness with TestUFO tests, http://www.testufo.com/photo ...?
2. Do you get the exact same erraticness with keyboard strafe left/right ...?

If your erraticness disappears for #1, try reinstalling your graphics drivers, temporarily disabling RTSS and using VSYNC ON
If your erraticness disappears for #2, try troubleshooting your mouse
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Re: Motion Flicker / Double Images

Postby Kanone » 10 Dec 2018, 17:56

No its perfectly smooth. I think I did not express myself well. Its not really '' erratic '' in reality, its more like it's as if the camera was jamming against an invisible wall for a fraction of a second. Its not the mouse because it only happens when the 60fps jump to like 60.5/61fps and it happens with a controller ( xbox one ) too. So I guess its a frame timing problem.

For the driver, i have all my drivers up to date and i even reinstall windows entirely yesterday :lol:. I will post a video to show you what happens exactly and if you can tell me if this is normal or not, i would appreciate it.

For the motion flicker / double images at 30fps i guess its normal finally. I'm not sure, i need to test on an another PC and a console to be 100% sure. But I know that I am very picky with fluidity in games, so sometimes I can tell myself that something is wrong while everything is normal ^^'
Sorry to make a post for something that is, maybe, normal. But in the 2 videos that i have posted, is this how 30fps supposed to look ? If yes, so everything is fine.
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