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Re: Motion Flicker / Double Images

PostPosted: 10 Dec 2018, 18:17
by Kanone
Here the video. I've enable the frame counter like that you can see the framerate jumping to 61/62 for no reason, even with RTSS or with the nvidia profile inspector framerate lock, or without frame lock at all. Also i have enabled Vsync through nvidia profile inspector and i've locked the framerate to 60 with RTSS. I play in fullscreen.

Its definitely not smooth. It only happens in certain > first person < games. Other games are totally fine.
I'm just lost right now. I've always found a way to '' repair '' everything alone, without help.. but right now it's about black magic :evil:

Re: Motion Flicker / Double Images

PostPosted: 10 Dec 2018, 19:07
by Chief Blur Buster

1. What brand monitor are you using? Any blur reduction mode enabled? (factors: PWM dimming, motion blur reduction, impulse displays) (Duplicate image check)
2. Is it perfectly smooth when you view ? (Fluidity check)
3. Are those specific games smoother with RTSS disabled, while having VSYNC ON? (RTSS troubleshooting, not all games play well with RTSS)
4. In those stuttery games, is keyboard strafe left/right much smoother than keyboard turn left/right? (mouse troubleshooting)

Re: Motion Flicker / Double Images

PostPosted: 11 Dec 2018, 01:20
by RealNC
Kanone wrote:No its perfectly smooth. I think I did not express myself well. Its not really '' erratic '' in reality, its more like it's as if the camera was jamming against an invisible wall for a fraction of a second.

Btw, I like to point out that I understand exactly what you mean with that. It's the main reason why I can't deal with 30FPS gaming. It does look like judder, but it's not. The only way to hide this is through a high amount of motion blur.

Kanone wrote:Edit : I post two video to show exactly what i'm talking about, to make sure you understand what I'm talking about. The videos are not from me.

The first video shows display ghosting when you play it frame by frame. You can do that in the YouTube player by pausing the video and pressing the "." key on your keyboard. Press it repeatedly to go through the video frame by frame. It's probably a VA panel TV, and those have larger amounts of ghosting compared to gaming monitors. This ghosting can actually hide some of the 30FPS ugliness. There is also a chance that this is not display ghosting, but the game does it on purpose to make 30FPS look better. But I think that's unlikely. It's probably the display.

The second video looks perfectly clear. There is no judder actually. That's how 30FPS looks like when you have a crystal clear image without ghosting and without the game using motion blur. The clearer the display is during motion (and a gaming monitor is always much clearer than a TV), the more obvious the stutter and almost "flicker" like nature of 30FPS becomes. Also, playing a mouse instead of a console controller can make it worse, because faster motion exaggerates the issue further compared to smoother and slower motion with a controller.

If you do indeed get judder in the games you play on your PC, you should tweak your RTSS cap slightly. Instead of 60FPS, use 59.9 and see if that helps. For 1/2 vsync, instead of 30FPS, use 29.9FPS. This makes sure that the RTSS limiter is actually getting triggered for each frame.

Also, since you have a 144Hz display, there's a nice trick you can do here. Play the game at 144Hz (set "Highest available" in the "Preferred refresh rate" setting in the nvidia panel's "3D Settings" section) and then use Inspector to set 1/4 vsync which gives 36FPS, or 1/3 vsync, which gives 48FPS.

Finally, for Skyrim in particular (and the other Bethesda RPGs, like Fallout 4), you really need to disable the game's vsync in the ini file, and force vsync in the nvidia panel. The Bethesda engine has severe issues with its own vsync implementation and on many systems it has extreme levels of judder.

Kanone wrote:Here the video. I've enable the frame counter like that you can see the framerate jumping to 61/62 for no reason, even with RTSS or with the nvidia profile inspector framerate lock, or without frame lock at all. Also i have enabled Vsync through nvidia profile inspector and i've locked the framerate to 60 with RTSS. I play in fullscreen.

Its definitely not smooth.

OK, there is definitely judder in that video (going through it frame by frame makes it obvious, since some frames are duplicate.) Try and see if a 59.9FPS limit helps. Or perhaps 120Hz with 1/2 vsync and a 59.9FPS limit.

(As a side note, 120Hz or 144Hz with a 1/x vsync setting is usually better overall, as it gives lower input lag in combination with an appropriate RTSS cap. But that's another story entirely. ;))

Re: Motion Flicker / Double Images

PostPosted: 11 Dec 2018, 09:37
by Kanone
Ok i understand better what the term judder mean. If its how 30fps look, so everything is fine at 36fps to me ( and 36fps@144hz is way better than 30fps@60hz btw ). But yeah, in this game at 60fps the judder is annoying. I will try your soluCtion, RealNC and i'll tell you if it works better or not. But i think the engine of the game ( Cry Engine ) don't help at all, because he is coded with the idea to play at 31fps and it seems that the engine wont stay at 60fps ( jump to 61/62 even with rtss ) for some reason.

Chief :
1- PWM dimming.
2- Perfectly smooth at 60hz, 85hz, 100hz, 120hz and 144hz.
3- Honestly RTSS works good for all my games. I only have this stutter in first person games at 60fps, and without Rtss its even worse. Third person games are perfectly fine even without RTSS, but RTSS help to reduce the input lag and make the image more clear and smooth so ^^
4- In those stuttery game keyboard strafe left/right is the same than keyboard turn left/right. I even test multiple mouse, but its all the same.

Maybe my motherboard is faulty. I know its a BAD motherboard ( specific to the asus G20AJ ). I can deal with this issue as long as its only on first person game while waiting to have the money to buy a new PC. Mine is 4 years old now. But its still annoying to play at 30fps when i have enough power to play at 60fps :(

Re: Motion Flicker / Double Images

PostPosted: 11 Dec 2018, 22:00
by Chief Blur Buster
1. PWM dimming can be the cause of the duplicate images that make stutter feel harsher. You can set your brightness to 100% on monitor OSD, and then use NVIDIA Control Panel (or game adjustments) to dim your picture. That will prevent the PWM dimming, and motion will be less harsh.

2. OK, rules out behaviours like frameskipping. No problem there.

4. We're comparing keyboard fluidity with mouse fluidity.
My mouse is good enough that mouse turn left/right feels as smooth as keyboard strafe left/right. It's a good test of comparing keyboard smoothness with mouse smoothness. It takes a lot more work to get a mouse as smooth as keyboard (often requires a 1000Hz mouse + really good mouse pad + really clean mouse feet), and requires mouse sensitivity adjustment of the "High/Middle/Low" trio:
1. Mouse vendor software (Razer, Logitech systray app) at highest "still-accurate" DPI setting
2. Control Panel "Set Pointer Speed" setting at Center Setting
3. Game sensitivity at very low setting

For many newer 1000Hz mice, this is a combination that often smoothes mouseturns greatly. Your mileage will vary greatly, and some eSports players prefer lower DPIs (especially with older sensors) but with newer sensors and in conjunction with a good professional mousepad, this triple-trick can really smooth the mouseturning during blur-reduction modes (e.g. ULMB).

You don't have to max-out the DPI, but it should be a much higher DPI than is comfortable at Windows desktop, for smoother game mouseturning. For 6400dpi mice, I use the 1600dpi setting for smooth ULMB operation (fixes ULMB jitteriness since blur reduction modes such as LightBoost can make stutters easier to see). Use profiles to use lower DPI for desktop and higher DPI for game (Razer software can automatically switch profiles everytime "steam.exe" launches for example, increase DPI automatically via executable launch detection)


Long term, if you're picky about stutters I'd suggest upgrading the monitor to VRR -- using FreeSync or GSYNC. This really helps smooth out your game motion. Random framerates have no seams between framerates, so you can't tell whether 36fps becomes 37fps becomes 35fps and so on -- VRR completely erases the visibility of small framerate changes -- and only the big or sudden frametime changes become visible. So VRR makes the game look much smoother and better.

Re: Motion Flicker / Double Images

PostPosted: 12 Dec 2018, 10:32
by Kanone
Chief : I see, thanks for the information Chief. My mouse can go up to 800 DPI, unfortunately I have already tested the advice you gave me and nothing helps.
Anyway, i think i have all the information i can get. I'm 80% sure it is hardware related. And because this '' micro stuttering '' appear only in certains first person games AND only at 60fps i can deal with it before buying a brand new PC ( not a pre build this time ) and a Gsync monitor. I know i can upgrade the slab of the vg248qe for a Gsync one so i'm lucky for that.

RealNC: I've tested the 120hz + Vsync 1/2 + lock to 59.9fps but its absolutely the same. It seems that the framerate wont be locked at a true 59.9 or a true 60.00fps, it always jump to 61/62fps and cause this micro stuttering. I think I have almost tested everything honestly, nothing work. I guess its hardware related so. Anyway, as i say i can deal with it for some time. At least I would have tried :ugeek:

Thank you very much for your help RealNC and Chief, I really aprpeciate it. It's rare to see such dedication to help others on a forum so you have all my respect and all my love.

The topic can be closed :D