Driver 441.08: Ultra-Low Latency Now with G-SYNC Support

Talk about NVIDIA G-SYNC, a variable refresh rate (VRR) technology. G-SYNC eliminates stutters, tearing, and reduces input lag. List of G-SYNC Monitors.
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jorimt
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Re: Driver 441.08: Ultra-Low Latency Now with G-SYNC Support

Post by jorimt » 28 Nov 2019, 19:37

RealNC wrote:
28 Nov 2019, 03:40
Thanks for these. Looks like the way nvidia is limiting the framerate in NULL mode is different than their normal limiter.
Yes, it certainly seems to be a possibility at this point.
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emhelmark
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Re: Driver 441.08: Ultra-Low Latency Now with G-SYNC Support

Post by emhelmark » 28 Nov 2019, 20:01

This is great, you guys are amazing. I am really aiming for lowest latency in apex/pubg/dota2 because yep.. competitive

For my scenario, I can't achieve the optimal g-sync settings since my monitor is freesync(hx240s) that said as I've read on other threads G-sync "OFF" + V-Sync(nvcp&game) "OFF" + FPS cap -3 to refresh rate will give the lowest input lag, I wonder then if I should still use NULL or leave it off?

My current settings is the same as above but with NULL "On" / I don't have some tools to test the input lag though but I felt better gameplay and responsiveness versus back when I don't know limiting FPS and stuffs.

Also another question is it seems its kinda hard for me to sustain 141 fps on pubg although its mostly there based on my observation my FPS throughout the game is around 120~ish + and most of the time yes it is reaching the 141 cap // should I lower the CAP to like 120-130? What is the downside of a not fully sustained capped FPS?

Lastly, is there a software/tool to test so I can determine what fps cap I should go?

My specs btw are:
5 3600(stock) boosting to 4.2
gtz 1070 @ 800mv 1733mhz
gaming in ssd
2x8gb 3200cl16
1080p144hz HX240S monitor
1000hz polling rate mouse

prince
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Re: Driver 441.08: Ultra-Low Latency Now with G-SYNC Support

Post by prince » 29 Nov 2019, 03:26

Hello there, newbie here lurking in and having a quick question:

I play on a 60hz display so technically speaken: will Gsync and RTTS -3 Frames + VSYNC + NULL still give me lower input lag compared to running the game at ~100 FPS and let´s say fast vsync?

In theory, the frametimes should be lower and therefore the game should feel more responsive on 100 FPS rather than playing it at 57 FPS and therefore having an additional input lag because of higher frametimes.

Am I missing something here? Gsync on 60hz feels to me kinda wasted because either I have high fps or I have Gsync experience... Am I wrong though?

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RealNC
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Re: Driver 441.08: Ultra-Low Latency Now with G-SYNC Support

Post by RealNC » 29 Nov 2019, 07:38

prince wrote:
29 Nov 2019, 03:26
I play on a 60hz display so technically speaken: will Gsync and RTTS -3 Frames + VSYNC + NULL still give me lower input lag compared to running the game at ~100 FPS and let´s say fast vsync?
Fastsync at high FPS should have less input lag.
Am I missing something here? Gsync on 60hz feels to me kinda wasted because either I have high fps or I have Gsync experience... Am I wrong though?
60Hz is limiting of course, but it helps a ton with games that can't sustain 60FPS. And even if a game would be able to go somewhat higher and sustain, say, a solid 70FPS or 80FPS, g-sync capped to 57FPS is probably better than fastsync at 80 due to the fastsync stutter. This is subjective of course. You should use whatever looks more pleasant to you.
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jorimt
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Re: Driver 441.08: Ultra-Low Latency Now with G-SYNC Support

Post by jorimt » 29 Nov 2019, 10:22

emhelmark wrote:
28 Nov 2019, 20:01
For my scenario, I can't achieve the optimal g-sync settings since my monitor is freesync(hx240s)
Why not? So long as you're FreeSync range is adequate, my base optimal G-SYNC settings apply to any adaptive-sync/VRR tech:
FreeSync + V-SYNC + -3 FPS limit.
emhelmark wrote:
28 Nov 2019, 20:01
that said as I've read on other threads G-sync "OFF" + V-Sync(nvcp&game) "OFF" + FPS cap -3 to refresh rate will give the lowest input lag, I wonder then if I should still use NULL or leave it off?
With uncapped V-SYNC OFF + sustained framerates far above the refresh rate, typically, yes. With standalone V-SYNC off + capped framerate within the refresh rate, there's not really an appreciable input lag difference between it and VRR (G-SYNC, FreeSync).

The only time you want to be using an FPS limit with standalone V-SYNC OFF, is to either prevent your GPU usage from maxing out (at which point the pre-rendered frames queue will begin to increase), and/or if you want to stay at your average attainable framerate for consistency reasons.

That specific "-3 FPS" limit only applies to VRR (variable refresh rate) solutions to keep them within their range, whereas V-SYNC OFF doesn't have a range to stay in, so any FPS limit used with it is for the reasons I listed above.
emhelmark wrote:
28 Nov 2019, 20:01
My current settings is the same as above but with NULL "On" / I don't have some tools to test the input lag though but I felt better gameplay and responsiveness versus back when I don't know limiting FPS and stuffs.
Typically, Low Latency Mode (both "On" and "Ultra") applies only to framerates below your FPS limiter; when your framerate is limited by your cap, pre-rendered frames queue settings don't really apply.
emhelmark wrote:
28 Nov 2019, 20:01
Also another question is it seems its kinda hard for me to sustain 141 fps on pubg although its mostly there based on my observation my FPS throughout the game is around 120~ish + and most of the time yes it is reaching the 141 cap // should I lower the CAP to like 120-130? What is the downside of a not fully sustained capped FPS?
Again, the downside is an increase of the pre-rendered frames queue from a fluctuating framerate and/or maxed GPU usage. Lowering the cap to an average that your system can sustain 99% of the time will prevent the above.
emhelmark wrote:
28 Nov 2019, 20:01
Lastly, is there a software/tool to test so I can determine what fps cap I should go?
MSI Afterburner if you want to monitor GPU usage, as to set an FPS limit to an average framerate that prevents your GPU usage from maxing out.
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

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emhelmark
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Re: Driver 441.08: Ultra-Low Latency Now with G-SYNC Support

Post by emhelmark » 29 Nov 2019, 22:20

jorimt wrote:
29 Nov 2019, 10:22
Why not? So long as you're FreeSync range is adequate, my base optimal G-SYNC settings apply to any adaptive-sync/VRR tech:
FreeSync + V-SYNC + -3 FPS limit.
Can't, maybe monitor/cable problems, I'm having flicker issues when turned on G-Sync the range is iirc is 48-144. I also expect it won't work flawlessly since its not a g-sync compatible monitor and just a random asian brand monitor.
jorimt wrote:
29 Nov 2019, 10:22
With uncapped V-SYNC OFF + sustained framerates far above the refresh rate, typically, yes. With standalone V-SYNC off + capped framerate within the refresh rate, there's not really an appreciable input lag difference between it and VRR (G-SYNC, FreeSync).

The only time you want to be using an FPS limit with standalone V-SYNC OFF, is to either prevent your GPU usage from maxing out (at which point the pre-rendered frames queue will begin to increase), and/or if you want to stay at your average attainable framerate for consistency reasons.

That specific "-3 FPS" limit only applies to VRR (variable refresh rate) solutions to keep them within their range, whereas V-SYNC OFF doesn't have a range to stay in, so any FPS limit used with it is for the reasons I listed above.
I see, I guess capped framerates are always better and stable.
jorimt wrote:
29 Nov 2019, 10:22
MSI Afterburner if you want to monitor GPU usage, as to set an FPS limit to an average framerate that prevents your GPU usage from maxing out.
Will do. I did watched battlenonsense video and it seems unmaex gpu usage gives better and stable frametime.

Thank you for a really simple explanation I understand now how each features works.

I'll go with g/v-sync off now and will just find the sweetspot framerate cap on the specific games I play.

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jorimt
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Re: Driver 441.08: Ultra-Low Latency Now with G-SYNC Support

Post by jorimt » 29 Nov 2019, 23:01

emhelmark wrote:
29 Nov 2019, 22:20
Can't, maybe monitor/cable problems, I'm having flicker issues when turned on G-Sync the range is iirc is 48-144. I also expect it won't work flawlessly since its not a g-sync compatible monitor and just a random asian brand monitor.
That would explain it then.
emhelmark wrote:
29 Nov 2019, 22:20
I see, I guess capped framerates are always better and stable.
Not always possible or practical to sustain your average FPS 99% of the time at a desirable framerate limit, but, ideally, yes, where possible.
emhelmark wrote:
29 Nov 2019, 22:20
Will do. I did watched battlenonsense video and it seems unmaex gpu usage gives better and stable frametime.

Thank you for a really simple explanation I understand now how each features works.

I'll go with g/v-sync off now and will just find the sweetspot framerate cap on the specific games I play.
You're welcome. Sounds good to me ;)
Author: Blur Busters "G-SYNC 101" Series

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janos666
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Re: Driver 441.08: Ultra-Low Latency Now with G-SYNC Support

Post by janos666 » 07 Dec 2019, 20:58

Great thread with lots of useful info.
I just bought an LG C9 and a Turing card a few days ago and even though I read a lot about the original module-based G-Sync here a few years ago and randomly picked up some new info on other sites/forums (like V-Sync with -0.01 RTSS limit), I was sill a bit confused about the optimal settings for VESA A-Sync and HDMI VRR based G-Sync (how it compares to the old module and polling based G-Sync), especially after I read about the new LLM Ultra behavior with recent drivers.
I was surprised to see my fps auto-capped below the max refresh rate when I enabled GSync + V-Sync + Ultra and I was a bit skeptical if it's really as great as it subjectively felt at first.
After reading through this thread (confirming that the Ultra limiter adds no significant latency compared to the RTSS limiter) and experimenting a little (with how problematic scenes with frame time spikes look and feel), I eventually decided to set GSync + V-Sync + Ultra globally and try to set up some games individually with LLM On + in-game limiter later (though it's not trivial for the games I am currently playing or plan to play nowadays) and put RTSS away for now (except for DX12/Vulkan). After taking everything into consideration, I think this is the optimal setting for single player gaming with quality-settings aiming to keep the fps in the G-Sync range but not exactly at the framerate cap, hence the GPU running at ~99% utilization in the majority of the time. (Yeah, I know latency is best with <99% but I won't buy a 2080Ti or set everything to <=medium quality for story mode gaming.)
I used to play in either 1080p120 or 2160p60 with FastSync on a C8 (capped at refresh rate with RTSS or in-game limiter unless the uncapped frame rate would average at >=200% of the refresh rate) and this is definitely an improvement with the judders gone. Although I can still see and feel the occasional framerate spikes (not just the huge ones) and I am currently not sure if I get more than usual (possibly due to switching from a GTX1070 to an RTX2060 - well, actually, I have them next to each other for now) or I just notice more because I am not playing but benchmarking. I revisited some memorable old scenes with consistent spikes and I can still see the judder (GPU limited scenarios). May be it's placebo but these seem to be a bit less severe with LLM Ultra (though I only compared Ultra to Off and skipped On). Is this expected or random/placebo?

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jorimt
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Re: Driver 441.08: Ultra-Low Latency Now with G-SYNC Support

Post by jorimt » 08 Dec 2019, 10:24

janos666 wrote:
07 Dec 2019, 20:58
hence the GPU running at ~99% utilization in the majority of the time. (Yeah, I know latency is best with <99% but I won't buy a 2080Ti or set everything to <=medium quality for story mode gaming.)
Beyond occasional online competitive gaming, I don't personally worry too much about GPU utilization within the G-SYNC range in single-player games either.
janos666 wrote:
07 Dec 2019, 20:58
I revisited some memorable old scenes with consistent spikes and I can still see the judder (GPU limited scenarios). May be it's placebo but these seem to be a bit less severe with LLM Ultra (though I only compared Ultra to Off and skipped On). Is this expected or random/placebo?
G-SYNC can't do anything about frametime spikes, as these instances mean no new frames are being output by the system for one or more frames at a time. This forces even G-SYNC to repeat the previous frame until they subside, causing visible stutter.

As for whether different configurations of LLM help in this regard or not, it really depends on the scenario; I can tell you what LLM does when it's working, but I can't guarantee when it will work, and how well it will work at any given time depending on the combination of the system specs, configuration, and performance, and it's interaction with a given game.

At worst, LLM ON/Ultra may cause more stutter if your CPU can't keep up with your GPU, at best (where your CPU is a match to your GPU; usually the case on a dedicated gaming system), input lag can potentially be reduced by around 1 frame in uncapped/GPU-bound situations.
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not_l0v3ly
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Re: Driver 441.08: Ultra-Low Latency Now with G-SYNC Support

Post by not_l0v3ly » 11 Dec 2019, 05:07

please tell me what will be better (less delay) in apex legends on the monitor 240 hz
1) gsync on + vsync on and cap 235 fps
2) gsync off + vsync off and cap fps 190


all streamers choose the second option and this is alarming :D

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