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Considering producing SED/FED monitors... Critique needed

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Considering producing SED/FED monitors... Critique needed

Postby rabidz7 » 21 Jul 2014, 20:43

If this post is not allowed on Blur Busters, please inform me and I will delete it or edit it so that it follows the rules. I also want to state that I am in the very, very early planning stages for SED/FED monitor production; there is about a 25% chance of me beginning SED/FED monitor production but a 75% chance that this will not happen at all. CRT fans, please don't get your hopes up for this just yet.

[Editor's Note from Chief Blur Buster: yes, allowed. This type of posts are very welcome.]

Introduction
I am trying to assess interest in SED and FED computer monitors because I am interested in manufacturing them. For those who do not have knowledge about these amazing displays, I will describe them in this post as well as provide links to the Wikipedia pages for both technologies.

Basic Info
SED and FED displays are monitors that have a smaller form factor than LCDs, use 7-10 times less power than LCDs, while still having all the benefits of heavy, bulky, and power-guzzling CRT monitors. CRTs, SEDs, and FEDs all function by firing electrons at red, green, and blue phosphors, which glow when struck. On CRTs, SEDs, and FEDs, a group of all three phosphor colors represents one pixel. The phosphors require no backlight to function because they illuminate brightly when hit by electrons. LCDs and OLEDs all function by electrically changing the color of the crystals or LEDs. In terms of image quality, CRT, SED, and FED displays are considered superior to LCD and OLED monitors because CRTs, SEDs, and FEDs have higher refresh rates, the ability to natively run multiple resolutions and refresh rates without stretching, no input lag, instant response times, better black levels, better color representation, and better contrast ratios.

OLED Description
OLED displays are made of light emitting diodes that represent each pixel on the monitor. Unlike LCDs, OLEDs generate their own light and therefore do not need to be backlit.
Wikipedia page for OLEDs

LCD Description
LCDs function by changing the color of backlit liquid crystals. In LCDs, each pixel is a liquid crystal. The liquid crystals in LCDs produce no light themselves and must be backlit in order to be visible.
Wikipedia page for LCDs

CRT Description
CRT monitors use three electron guns, one for each phosphor color, which fire electrons in straight lines. Strong magnets are used to alter the course of the three electron beams so that they hit the desired phosphors. When the phosphors are struck, they illuminate and produce colored light, which is seen by the user of the monitor.
Wikipedia page for CRTs

Image
Comparison of CRT and SED/FED monitors

SED/FED Description
SED and FED monitors use thousands of microscopic electron emitters that fire electrons at each individual phosphor directly. Each phosphor is lit by its own electron emitter, which is located directly behind the phosphor, so it is not necessary to artificially bend the electron beams. When the phosphors are struck, they illuminate and produce colored light, which is seen by the user of the monitor. SED and FED monitors are extremely similar; their differences are so technical and minor that I will not be covering them here, as they are not of relevance.
Wikipedia page for SEDs
Wikipedia page for FEDs



List of planned monitors
All monitors have instant response times, zero input lag, are DRM-free, have USB hubs, better color and viewing angles than the best IPSes, and better contrast than the best VAs. The monitors only have BNC connectors, however, adapters will be included for VGA, DP, and DVI-D. The monitors are available with a choice of glossy or matte finish. Below are prices, aspect ratios, and resolutions. of monitors that I would sell if I decide to start producing SED/FED monitors. Do the prices seem fair? Would you get one of the monitors, if so, which monitor (ex. Monitor 7) and which size (ex. 80cm) would you get? Are there any changes I could make to the monitors to make them more appealing to you?


Monitor 1.1
Price: 50cm=$120, 55cm=$140, 60cm=$160
Aspect ratio: 4:3
Reference Resolutions: 1728x1296x80Hz, 1440x1080x90Hz, 1200x900x120Hz

Monitor 1.2
Price: 50cm=$120, 55cm=$140, 60cm=$160
Aspect ratio: 3:2
Reference Resolutions: 1800x1200x80Hz, 1536x1024x90Hz, 1152x768x120Hz

Monitor 1.3
Price: 50cm=$120, 55cm=$140, 60cm=$160
Aspect ratio: 16:9
Reference Resolutions: 1920x1080x80Hz, 1664x936x90Hz, 1280x720x120Hz

Monitor 2.1
Prices: 50cm=$300, 55cm=$320, 60cm=$340, 65cm=$360, 70cm=$380, 75cm=$400, 80cm=$420
Aspect ratio: 4:3
Reference Resolutions: 2304x1728x80Hz, 1728x1296x100Hz, 1440x1080x120Hz, 1200x900x144Hz

Monitor 2.2
Prices: 50cm=$300, 55cm=$320, 60cm=$340, 65cm=$360, 70cm=$380, 75cm=$400, 80cm=$420
Aspect ratio: 3:2
Reference Resolutions: 2400x1600x80Hz, 1800x1200x100Hz, 1536x1024x120Hz, 1152x768x144Hz

Monitor 2.3
Prices: 50cm=$300, 55cm=$320, 60cm=$340, 65cm=$360, 70cm=$380, 75cm=$400, 80cm=$420
Aspect ratio: 16:9
Reference Resolutions: 2560x1440x80Hz, 1920x1080x100Hz, 1664x936x120Hz, 1280x720x144Hz

Monitor 3
Prices: 50cm=$450, 55cm=$475, 60cm=$500, 65cm=$525, 70cm=$550, 75cm=$575, 80cm=$600
Aspect ratio: 3:2
Reference Resolutions: 3072x2048x80Hz, 2400x1600x100Hz, 1800x1200x130Hz, 1536x1024x160Hz, 1152x768x200Hz

Monitor 4
Prices: 50cm=$600, 55cm=$625, 60cm=$650, 65cm=$675, 70cm=$700, 75cm=$725, 80cm=$750
Aspect ratio: 16:10
Reference Resolutions: 3840x2560x80Hz, 3072x2048x100Hz, 2400x1600x120Hz, 1800x1200x160Hz, 1536x1024x190Hz, 1152x768x240Hz

Monitor 5.0
Prices: 50cm=$900, 55cm=$950, 60cm=$1000, 65cm=$1050, 70cm=$1100, 75cm=$1150, 80cm=$1200
Aspect ratio: 16:10
Reference Resolutions: 4800x3200x80Hz, 3840x2560x100Hz, 3072x2048x120Hz, 2400x1600x144Hz, 1800x1200x200Hz, 1536x1024, 1142x768x260Hz



Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathode_ray_tube
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-c ... er_display
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_emission_display
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid-crystal_display
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLED
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... vs_CRT.jpg
Last edited by rabidz7 on 01 Dec 2014, 13:21, edited 9 times in total.
Rabidz7 is a: PowerPC Fan, LCD and x86 Hater, and a Plasma/OLED/CRT/SED/FED Lover
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Re: Considering producing SED/FED monitors... Critique neede

Postby spacediver » 21 Jul 2014, 21:16

rabidz7 wrote: In terms of image quality, CRT, SED, and FED displays are considered superior to LCD and OLED monitors, because CRTs, SEDs, and FEDs have higher refresh rates, the ability to natively run multiple resolutions...


I think one variant of FED has the ability to do multiple resolutions: See this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/64-direct ... el-tv.html

What kind of resources do you have at your disposal? This is no small undertaking.
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Re: Considering producing SED/FED monitors... Critique neede

Postby Reythe » 22 Jul 2014, 01:12

768x480x1125Hz


You magnificent bastard, I would buy one in a heartbeat if they were available. I just bought my XL2411T a month ago :(
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Re: Considering producing SED/FED monitors... Critique neede

Postby flood » 22 Jul 2014, 06:53

this is rather concerning
However, this also means that changes in voltage cannot be used to control the brightness of the resulting pixels. Instead, the emitters are rapidly turned on and off using pulse width modulation, so that the total brightness of a spot in any given time can be controlled.
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Re: Considering producing SED/FED monitors... Critique neede

Postby Q83Ia7ta » 23 Jul 2014, 14:02

ETA: 2016?
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Re: Considering producing SED/FED monitors... Critique neede

Postby Alamar » 24 Jul 2014, 00:32

If it really were good (didn't make headaches looking on screen for example) I would buy monitor 4 (or even any other) but honestly it looks like pure fantasy. But I hope producers will move finally from lcd to something that will have all advantages of crt because those advantages are much more important than advantages of lcd.
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Re: Considering producing SED/FED monitors... Critique neede

Postby flood » 24 Jul 2014, 03:00

maybe I've asked before, but why haven't oled's taken off in the desktop market?
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Re: Considering producing SED/FED monitors... Critique neede

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 24 Jul 2014, 09:02

We encourage collaboration here on the manufacture of "Blur Blusters" friendly displays such as these!

The modern world of Kickstarter is that sometimes multimillion dollar efforts do begin nowadays from forum posts like these!!

The only proviso is that I remain impartial (all vendors welcome to these forums) without any conflicts of interest. We must be impartial due to the news we cover on the expanding "Better Than 60Hz" niche. I'd also request being among the early reviewers - friendly nudge there. This forum is the only one that understands "1000Hz" displays, and whenever anyone argues against, there is enough known science already to rebuttal the doubters (low lag, even less tearing, ultra low lag VSYNC ON, ability to simultaneously reduce stroboscopic effect AND motion blur, at the same time), supported by science papers and especially trailblazers by the likes of Blur Busters, Valve Software, Michael Abrash, John Carmack, Palmer Luckey, etc.

This is no small undertaking. This is a niche market but I would definitely give you news coverage if you showed some really interesting milestones (e.g. Engineering documents, prototypes, etc) showing off an impressively real effort.

Are you planning any open approaches (at least in part of this), such as kickstarter, public business plans, or anything you are privy to collaborate here? This can help accelerate your market, if this is a real effort with real credentials/early funding. I will be happy to assist on publicity and coverage on legitimate efforts. Such displays would presumably cost multimillion dollars of tooling to manufacture, so you will have to "show your stuff" (credentials, connections, engineering progress, etc) to win the always-skeptical Internet populace, but we know the benefits of true high-Hz displays. We do talk to multiple monitor manufacturers, and convince them to support new features (e.g. Strobe length adjustments, etc.)
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       To support Blur Busters:
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Re: Considering producing SED/FED monitors... Critique neede

Postby Chief Blur Buster » 24 Jul 2014, 09:12

One big question, how are you going to handle temporal resolution limitations, considering many early prototypes required per-pixel PWM/sub fields and originally performed worse than plasma? Will you use short-decay phosphor? The prices you quote might double or triple after all the potential cost overruns, matching the price of a rolling-scan OLED (what if they arrive on the desktop in two or three years instead of five years, considering Oculus DK2 may cause give manufacturers ideas?) which may produce less motion blur than a 500Hz FED/SED due to phosphor decay and PWM-based color generation. Have you studied the motion blur behaviour of a modern strobed 120Hz display with adjustable strobe length, on motion tests such as TestUFO, at least as an educational study even if you dislike LCD? Have you seen how crystal clear CRT-like the DK2 motion looks like during 75fps@75Hz? Seen these displays least as a goal benchmark familiarization? Obviously, true 1000Hz is better (especially at 1000fps), but what tradeoffs might occur? Phosphor decay also affects motion blur (via phosphor ghosting). Probably could be few enough with the benefits outweighing them. Just make sure you are golden. Serious engineering questions to pay attention to.

That said, true 240Hz+ displays! even 1000Hz displays, will be in demand by a big bunch of us here for gaming, as well as the scientific display market (true 500Hz displays sell for five figures). This may compensate for cost overruns, but you would need to build a good network among the science community too (marketing...). Just look at the Viewpixx products, for example. You might want a consumer model and a pro model, to aim at two price points, since your undertaking is expensive.

Volume will determine your price targets as you already know. Double your costs and less than a quarter of buyers might happen. It is a fine line to walk, the curve is quite dramatic.

(Hint: Add another zero to the pro model and the small scientific market will still buy them! Try to go for much less than that to get more volume, but you'd still be undercutting since some displays cost two orders of magnitude more than your prices! If it keeps you from going bankrupt on the cheaper consumer model displays; subsidizing the consumer model to the prices you are listing. I hope you can achieve the cheap prices, but you could fortify your business plan with the known prices of the scientific models, to help attract your angel investors.)
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       To support Blur Busters:
       • Official List of Best Gaming Monitors
       • List of G-SYNC Monitors
       • List of FreeSync Monitors
       • List of Ultrawide Monitors
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Re: Considering producing SED/FED monitors... Critique neede

Postby nimbulan » 24 Jul 2014, 12:32

So it looks like you're targeting $400-500 for the equivalent of a VG248QE G-sync. I feel like that would be the sweet spot (monitors 4 and 5) for most people though some would appreciate a higher resolution. A couple questions though: why only 16:10? I know some people appreciate the additional vertical resolution but 16:9 is a lot easier to use from a compatibility standpoint for gaming. I suppose though that these monitors would handle letterboxing just fine. Also are the higher-end models you have listed working within the bandwidth limitations of DisplayPort? I know they're far exceeding DVI's bandwidth.

You mention "I" a lot like you're planning this on your own. I'm assuming you work for a large electronics company of some sort? I can't imagine an individual would have access to the production resources for a large project like this.
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