Digital Foundry - CRT better then 4K OLED

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JKJK
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Joined: 23 Oct 2019, 15:48

Re: Digital Foundry - CRT better then 4K OLED

Post by JKJK » 23 Oct 2019, 16:03

The Video doesn't talk about a "Disadvantage" of CRT tech.

I am 100% behind CRT gaming. However, it is not an appropriate display for all games due to very low ANSI-Contrast. Ansic is simultaneous contrast of the brightest white and darkest black each occupying 50% of the total screen area. On LCD / OLED the Peak contrast ratio is approximately equal to its Ansic. ~1000:1 IPS/TN, ~3000-6000:1 VA, ~20,000-Infinity:1 OLED (depending on how well it's calibrated)

On CRT, while its' Peak contrast can be ~100,000:1, its Ansic is like that of projectors, at its worst potentially ~80 : 1.

Now, you don't get into this worst case situation on every scene, but it can't be ignored. In most cases, Bright scene, bright games/movies will have much more depth in the final image on an LCD/Oled.

Control: from the video is a good candidate for CRT, because it is a very dark game, therefore you would rarely hit those 80:1 situations. For Dark scenes, CRT can hold their own very well against OLED usually hitting 10,000-20,000:1 contrast.

But in any bright scene, if you side by side Control with a CRT and LCD, you'd quickly see how flat/washed out the image looks on the CRT, because the contrast is eaten up by CRT bloom.

In the End, This may be a m00t comparison, because modern games are not MASTERED on CRT anymore. So in terms of the Artistic intent of the game developer, they can only be fulfilled by LCDs which have the higher Ansi-Contrast.

BELIEVE ME, I very much want to time travel back to early 2000s, to the height of CRT Tech, which will sadly never return. It's not so much that the technology is lost, it's the infrastructure, without the mass consumer demand of the past, even to return to the 2003 CRT level would be extremely difficult.

billburrbuster
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Re: Digital Foundry - CRT better then 4K OLED

Post by billburrbuster » 24 Oct 2019, 07:49

the force is weak with you :D
CRTs have a lot of problems, but bad, washed-out picture in any setting (bringter or darker) is not an issue on a good CRT.
While it's true crts do not show great contrast results in white-black patterns all over the screen, but in real life situations - kind of nah-ah.
And comparing it to crt projectors... you should be ashamed.

JKJK
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Joined: 23 Oct 2019, 15:48

Re: Digital Foundry - CRT better then 4K OLED

Post by JKJK » 24 Oct 2019, 11:48

I am a Proud owner of an FW900 and i1d3 pro. I've gone through the whole spread of CRT tweaks and calibrations. There is simply no way CRT can match the Vividness of LCD for Bright scenes. On their own, without side by side, CRT looks pretty good, but place it next to a VA or even crappy IPS, the difference in saturation and depth is substantial (For Bright Scenes). This is after having the FW900 tweaked and achieving proper infinity:1 black level reading during calibration.

I have no arguments against the motion clarity of CRTs, but the major drawback of low Ansi-Contrast is resolved by LCD/OLED. The outcome is a deeper more colorful image vs CRT. Which is why I always say CRT is good, but it's not appropriate for all tasks/content.

billburrbuster
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Joined: 22 Oct 2019, 04:54

Re: Digital Foundry - CRT better then 4K OLED

Post by billburrbuster » 24 Oct 2019, 12:47

i've seen some really not that great fw900s over the internet, dont know if its calibration or wearout. Even in this Digital Foundry example monitor doesnt look good: has crushed blacks, bleak, reddish\yellowish tint.
But i've got this old as dinousaur sh*t but almost untouched Samsung 700NF recently, one of the cheapest aperture grill back in the days, i sat it on my desk along with decent full-color IPS dell, the colors of 700NF are more vivid, though not oversaturated. Some tones are warmer, some colder, so you cant say its wrong color temperature, but overall colors are more natural. I had some photos printed in the lab some days before i've got the crt, and after i did, i compared the photos heads to heads, and was amazed how closer to the print uncalibrated (though i played with rgb gamma in gpu settings) crt was.
The problems my crt has:
-bad horizontal linearity (OSD menu has only vertical option)
-mild convergence in the corners
-there was a spot on the antiglare coating i tried to wipe off and now there is no antiglare on the monitor :D so now my curtains need to be shut.
-buzzing noises
But the only problem that prevents me from using 700nf: i cant find a VGA cable that has no ghosting aka ringing aka echoing. DVI to VGA adapter also amplifies it. So i need an older GPU with direct VGA, better cable and perhaps better grounding in the power sockets in my apartment. It seems like too much, and i'm really sad i can't have CRT brilliant colors on my desk right now :p
====
dont mind my englesa

JKJK
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Joined: 23 Oct 2019, 15:48

Re: Digital Foundry - CRT better then 4K OLED

Post by JKJK » 24 Oct 2019, 13:42

@ bill,

Visual judgement of image quality is not meaningful if none of those devices are calibrated.

CRTs and LCDs typically run a different tone curve as well depending on the era of the crt, era of the lcd.

As for the photo comparison, print photos only have 300-500:1 contrast, it could look closer to either the crt or lcd, but again, not meaningful, unless Every device is set to a reference standard.

Even when set to standard, the Color of the room illuminant can change the appearance of the photo drastically. Alot of the time 6500k color temp on a monitor may looks like a 5300k in the room. And if the walls are white or blue cast, that could leech color out of the print as well. Then there's the CRI of the lights, even high cri lights may have very odd spectral distribution, like leds with blue spikes.

rasmas
Posts: 67
Joined: 03 Jan 2018, 15:25

Re: Digital Foundry - CRT better then 4K OLED

Post by rasmas » 26 Oct 2019, 09:58

JKJK wrote:I am a Proud owner of an FW900 and i1d3 pro. I've gone through the whole spread of CRT tweaks and calibrations. There is simply no way CRT can match the Vividness of LCD for Bright scenes. On their own, without side by side, CRT looks pretty good, but place it next to a VA or even crappy IPS, the difference in saturation and depth is substantial (For Bright Scenes). This is after having the FW900 tweaked and achieving proper infinity:1 black level reading during calibration.

I have no arguments against the motion clarity of CRTs, but the major drawback of low Ansi-Contrast is resolved by LCD/OLED. The outcome is a deeper more colorful image vs CRT. Which is why I always say CRT is good, but it's not appropriate for all tasks/content.
Aside from technical data, what do you like-use the CRT for? comparing your LCD to the Sony CRT, on which are you more confortable? (can you share the LCD you use?) If you played same game on both how did it felt?

I don't know but i think CRTs have "something" that does not make the eye uncomfortable (the glass and antiglare coating, the blur, the technology itself with its softer images or maybe it just can't give as much brightness than CRTs and that makes the eyes more comfortable than if you use any LCD even at medium brightness), i don't know so i want to see user opinions, and if they have both technologies better :) .
At then end maybe it is just 100% personal preference :D .

JKJK
Posts: 8
Joined: 23 Oct 2019, 15:48

Re: Digital Foundry - CRT better then 4K OLED

Post by JKJK » 27 Oct 2019, 01:09

In terms of eye strain, Most CRTs will generally peak @ 60-100 nits full blast white screen due to Power limiter. People use LCDs at 120nit, 200nit + will definitely feel the burn more after a few hours. CRT also softens the image somewhat, reducing high-frequency information could lead to reduced processing strain by the brain.

I use CRT for nostalgia, to play my 640x480 games. Sometimes I watch old 4:3 aspect ratio tv shows as well for that full retro-feel. :lol:

I don't use CRT for anything extended. Every-time you turn it on, is 1 less time it'll turn on. I've had to replace many capacitors in various CRTs already, it's only a matter of time before they're going dark permanently.

rasmas
Posts: 67
Joined: 03 Jan 2018, 15:25

Re: Digital Foundry - CRT better then 4K OLED

Post by rasmas » 27 Oct 2019, 02:33

You could have get a cheaper CRT for 640x480 games :P , FPS on that CRT must look great :) (can i ask what do you use for "normal" gaming? ;) ).
Thought CRTs were more durables than LCDs (i have 2 and they still work), i guess it depends on age and previous use.
;)

JKJK
Posts: 8
Joined: 23 Oct 2019, 15:48

Re: Digital Foundry - CRT better then 4K OLED

Post by JKJK » 27 Oct 2019, 20:12

I understand what you're saying, but I can't buy back my time. Might as well enjoy the best CRT while they still work and I'm alive.

My point prior is only to emphasize that one should use-CRT-responsibly. :lol:

There's also the radiation risk, minor x-ray emission from CRTs. :mrgreen:

rasmas
Posts: 67
Joined: 03 Jan 2018, 15:25

Re: Digital Foundry - CRT better then 4K OLED

Post by rasmas » 28 Oct 2019, 06:19

Believe it or not my father have a Geiger counter and i checked my CRT xD , at least mine seems ok :D .

I hope OLED monitors have all the good thing of CRTs and LCDs, and not too big problems, because i've tried several LCDs and can't get confortable with them :) .

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