Example Blur Busters Success Story: Incubating Research on Mouse 1000Hz vs 8000Hz

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Example Blur Busters Success Story: Incubating Research on Mouse 1000Hz vs 8000Hz

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 02 Mar 2022, 19:39

Hello,

Often, human observations are reported and other people think it's placebo. That's the problem -- sometimes tests are not yet invented to test for something we saw with our eyes.

Most gaming mice are 1000Hz, but I was a long-time proponent of 2000Hz+ mice for years. No major mouse manufacturer bothered to manufacture a proper true-2000Hz gaming mouse, until the Razer 8KHz came out.

Sometime in 2020, Razer released an 8KHz mouse to my enthusaic reception, and the difference was very clearly human visible to my eyes. But we needed tests. I was in the middle of developing tests for it, but Sunjun Kim in Korea beat me to it. The important thing was that Blur Busters was the one who encouraged them to create a research paper about the benefits of mouse going above 1000 Hz

October 2020

From tweet, I pounced on this thread with a lot of my replies.
Image
You can read my tweet replies, that I eventually convinced the researcher this was worth testing. That I knew that there was a benefit to having a mouse Hz massively super-sampling the display Hz to reduce mouse jitter.

June 2021

He then developed tests to execute what I have described/said, and announced on twitter about the paper. He also confirmed there was benefit -- proving that I was right that >1000Hz gaming mice such as Razer 8KHz had humankind benefit.
Image
September 2021

The paper became visible open-access on ACM -- "Do We Need a Faster Mouse? Empirical Evaluation of Asynchronicity-Induced Jitter"
https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3472749.3474783
And its open-access PDF (publicly visible, no paywall)

Here are some key screenshots from some pages of this paper, showing the jitter (between display Hz and mouse Hz), as well as human blind testing:
Image

Image
In October 2021, I created a twitter thread with commentary, including suggestions on additional frontiers to test (if future researchers wanted to), such as how changes to DPI and MPRT potentially affects human-visibility of >1000Hz mice even more powerfully than in the existing paper. The original researcher "Liked" that Twitter thread.

While I was not cited in that particular paper, it was clearly spawned from the Twitter discussion that I, myself started.

Currently, there are over 100 research papers indirectly spawned by ideas influenced by Blur Busters / social media / forums / etc.
Of these with confirm credit, I'm cited in more than 20 of them (Google Scholar Search of TestUFO or Blur Busters being mentioned)
Head of Blur Busters - BlurBusters.com | TestUFO.com | Follow @BlurBusters on Twitter

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Plznoinputlag
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Re: Example Blur Busters Success Story: Incubating Research on Mouse 1000Hz vs 8000Hz

Post by Plznoinputlag » 02 Mar 2022, 20:09

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 19:39
Hello,

Often, human observations are reported and other people think it's placebo. That's the problem -- sometimes tests are not yet invented to test for something we saw with our eyes.
[...]
when i tried to put 8khz polling rate in windows with hidusfb tweak its was like really 8k rate very smooth and easy to aim in games. But when you set it on the razer application to 8k polling rate its just make the mouse more faster but not smoothing for me. I wish i can always set the polling rate in windows rather than razer but i cant because its not allowed when u activate TPM so it means i cant play valorant,CSGO faceit.
Any suggestions about this situation?

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Re: Example Blur Busters Success Story: Incubating Research on Mouse 1000Hz vs 8000Hz

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 02 Mar 2022, 20:24

Plznoinputlag wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 20:09
Chief Blur Buster wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 19:39
Hello,

Often, human observations are reported and other people think it's placebo. That's the problem -- sometimes tests are not yet invented to test for something we saw with our eyes.
[...]
when i tried to put 8khz polling rate in windows with hidusfb tweak its was like really 8k rate very smooth and easy to aim in games. But when you set it on the razer application to 8k polling rate its just make the mouse more faster but not smoothing for me. I wish i can always set the polling rate in windows rather than razer but i cant because its not allowed when u activate TPM so it means i cant play valorant,CSGO faceit.
Any suggestions about this situation?
Some generic well-known tips about using Razer 8KHz:

1. I presume that you've disabled the Enhance Mouse Pointer Precision setting?

Image

2. Also, sometimes 8000Hz overloads the CPU of some systems, so some of us have resorted to 2000Hz or 4000Hz. Just upping to 2000Hz gets ~90% of the benefits of 8000Hz, with 75% less pollrate (and 75% less mouse-pollrate-related CPU loading). Also, it seems hidusb sometimes use less CPU than the razer drivers, so maybe that explains part of the behaviour.

3. And sometimes adding a 3rd party PCIe USB card reduce CPU% utilization due to buggy Windows mouse drivers.

4. CS:GO seems to behave weird with it, but Valorant behaves better. Ideally you want high pollrate, high DPI, low sensitivity. More esports players are slowly beginning to use 3200dpi with the Razer, due to its good sensor, but older games don't really feel smoother.

Also, you should mention your display Hz and the mouse model you did with hidusb tweak (did you do it on the Razer 8KHz, or by overclocking a different mouse, ala OCN tips?)

Thanks!
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Slender
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Re: Example Blur Busters Success Story: Incubating Research on Mouse 1000Hz vs 8000Hz

Post by Slender » 02 Mar 2022, 20:53

No, Chief, he means that if he sets the frequency 8000 in a third-party application, his mouse works better.
Perhaps this is a bad software optimization, who knows.
I own 8k and xm1r at the moment, and I want to say that xm1r, and any mouse at 1000 hertz will behave more consistently and more stable than 2000, 4000, 8000.
This is a fact, to make sure of this, just run tests in mousetester.
Someone will say that this test is biased, but from personal experience, more than one program did not give me an idea about the operation of the system and tracking problems like this.

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Re: Example Blur Busters Success Story: Incubating Research on Mouse 1000Hz vs 8000Hz

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 02 Mar 2022, 21:01

Perhaps, but I also reply to this thread for all readers -- not just that poster. There ARE many tricks that has successfully worked, with some big kudos in that old 8000 Hz thread with over 100,000 views (before I closed that thread).

Try 3 totally different motherboards too and a USB PCIe card. One of my systems was unable to even reach 4000 Hz but was fixed by installing a PCIe USB card and then mousetester was almost flat at 8KHz. It's similar to the USB Roulette Trick -- not all USB ports really do a good job, and you don't want to massively share the USB port.
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Forum Rules wrote:  1. Rule #1: Be Nice. This is published forum rule #1. Even To Newbies & People You Disagree With!
  2. Please report rule violations If you see a post that violates forum rules, then report the post.
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Plznoinputlag
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Re: Example Blur Busters Success Story: Incubating Research on Mouse 1000Hz vs 8000Hz

Post by Plznoinputlag » 03 Mar 2022, 04:23

Chief Blur Buster wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 21:01
Perhaps, but I also reply to this thread for all readers -- not just that poster. There ARE many tricks that has successfully worked, with some big kudos in that old 8000 Hz thread with over 100,000 views (before I closed that thread).

Try 3 totally different motherboards too and a USB PCIe card. One of my systems was unable to even reach 4000 Hz but was fixed by installing a PCIe USB card and then mousetester was almost flat at 8KHz. It's similar to the USB Roulette Trick -- not all USB ports really do a good job, and you don't want to massively share the USB port.
i have i7 9700k 4.8 boost core clock,
benq 2540k 240hz monitor
msi z390 pro motherboard.
I have usb 3.1 and when testing in mousetester its between 4k to 5k maximum not stable 8khz.
i dont think my cpu cant handle it i even overclocked to stable 5.1 ghz but its still the same not smooth like when u set 8khz in windows(hidusfb).

Vocaleyes
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Re: Example Blur Busters Success Story: Incubating Research on Mouse 1000Hz vs 8000Hz

Post by Vocaleyes » 03 Mar 2022, 05:17

So I've been using the Viper 8k since your recommendation, to eliminate visible gaps in pointer movement blur, Which is does incredibly well at 8k (leaving only extremely fast movement with some gaps, but 95% gone), but there are also some things to be added from my experience.

Firstly, just as 125hz -1khz has their own movement 'quirks' , such is also true for 2k - 8k.
What I mean by this is, at 500hz polling mouse movement feels responsive and unconstrained, whereas at 1k the mouse is more responsive and snappy, but feels like x and y axis are unbalanced, and that y movement is faster with upward movement, whereas downwards feels constrained and draggy.

2k feels less accurate than 500hz, while snappier than 500, doesn't feel snappier than 1k. Also feels like some slight acceleration on certain ranges of motion.

4k is like the 500hz of this 2-8k range, balanced x and y, snappy movements and definitely the most preferable for now.

8k, the only reason this one isn't the most preferable is as Chief has mentioned in the past, compatibility.
Certain games will start badly hitching at 8k, for me that game is Valorant. Which is immediately resolved at 4k.
This is an issue with games not being able to support the 8k and not a fault with the mouse.
For the games that work with 8k, the difference is astounding.. and not for the reason you think.

The reason this mouse is now a must buy, is because of the direct affect mouse polling rate has on frame timings/ smoothness (whatever the correct word would be here).
An easy way to see what I mean, is by going into a game and setting your polling to 125hz. you will see it affects the smoothness of your frames, in quite a massive way.
Then change to 250/500 and see the smoothness once again, and then with 1k.

You should ovserve that the higher the polling goes, the smoother the frames are.
This is also true ranging from 2k to 8k..

The frame smoothness at 8k mouse polling... is literally like unlocking your monitors TRUE refresh rate.


Unfortunately I am still having an issue with mouse movement inconsistencies, Which are also observable on ps5 and xbox kb&m native. Leaving either electricity, a common denominator between pc and both those consoles, or an issue with how mice are functioning/ produced in general. Which is unlikely, given some people are still able to develop muscle-memory while using a mouse, proving that their mouse movement is consistent, as that is scientifically the only way to develop muscle memory.. consistency.. Also, was not an issue with rollerball mice, nor was it with the 1st gen of Razer Deathadder when I was using it, and seems extremely counter-productive making a device that functions worse than it's direct counterpart for next gen.

but, with all that aside... this mouse is the equivalent of going from a 60hz to a 120+hz monitor. night and day. Thanks for the recommendation Chief.

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Re: Example Blur Busters Success Story: Incubating Research on Mouse 1000Hz vs 8000Hz

Post by axaro1 » 03 Mar 2022, 06:29

Slender wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 20:53
I own 8k and xm1r at the moment, and I want to say that xm1r, and any mouse at 1000 hertz will behave more consistently and more stable than 2000, 4000, 8000.
Having both the XM1r and the Viper8khz I definitely prefer the XM1r although I can feel better consistency in tracking with the Viper 8khz.

The only two reasons why I choose the XM1r over the Viper are:

1) The XM1 has a better shape for my play style.

2) As confirmed by EGG developers, optical switches hit the sound barrier after you hear the click(and the click is registered), this means that, at least from my experience, clicks are less predictable and tactility, both with V1 and V2 opticals, isn't a reliable tool to understand when the click is effectively happening.

Here's an example with what I believe are Opticals V2 for my Viper Mini, if you slow down the video to 0.25 speed you can see it more clearly
phpBB [video]


This isn't the case with mechanical switches, that provide a better feeling, I'd take +1/2ms of click latency over any optical if it means that I can understand when the click is actually happening.

It is also true that mechanical switches degrade over time, with use, force, voltage, corrosion and level of quality out of the factory, degradation can affect pre and post debounce with traditional debouncing methods and latency can increase over time as the switch life span worsen over time, the analog tech is good at compensating for degradation but opticals definitely don't suffer from this issue.

My endgame would be an 8khz XM1 mini :D
XL2566K* | XV252QF* | LG C1* | HP OMEN X 25 | XL2546K | VG259QM | XG2402 | LS24F350[RIP]
*= currently owned



MONITOR: XL2566K custom VT: https://i.imgur.com/ylYkuLf.png
CPU: 5800x3d 102mhz BCLK
GPU: 3080FE undervolted
RAM: https://i.imgur.com/iwmraZB.png
MOUSE: Endgame Gear OP1 8k
KEYBOARD: Wooting 60he

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Re: Example Blur Busters Success Story: Incubating Research on Mouse 1000Hz vs 8000Hz

Post by Slender » 03 Mar 2022, 07:30

axaro1 wrote:
03 Mar 2022, 06:29
Slender wrote:
02 Mar 2022, 20:53
I own 8k and xm1r at the moment, and I want to say that xm1r, and any mouse at 1000 hertz will behave more consistently and more stable than 2000, 4000, 8000.
Having both the XM1r and the Viper8khz I definitely prefer the XM1r although I can feel better consistency in tracking with the Viper 8khz.

The only two reasons why I choose the XM1r over the Viper are:

1) The XM1 has a better shape for my play style.

2) As confirmed by EGG developers, optical switches hit the sound barrier after you hear the click(and the click is registered), this means that, at least from my experience, clicks are less predictable and tactility, both with V1 and V2 opticals, isn't a reliable tool to understand when the click is effectively happening.

Here's an example with what I believe are Opticals V2 for my Viper Mini, if you slow down the video to 0.25 speed you can see it more clearly
phpBB [video]


This isn't the case with mechanical switches, that provide a better feeling, I'd take +1/2ms of click latency over any optical if it means that I can understand when the click is actually happening.

It is also true that mechanical switches degrade over time, with use, force, voltage, corrosion and level of quality out of the factory, degradation can affect pre and post debounce with traditional debouncing methods and latency can increase over time as the switch life span worsen over time, the analog tech is good at compensating for degradation but opticals definitely don't suffer from this issue.

My endgame would be an 8khz XM1 mini :D
definitely in such shooters as cod, bf you will feel the difference.
But in games like quake, for example, even a reduction from 1000 to 500 gives an advantage in tracking, sacrificing smoothness and may delay (on powerful, properly configured systems)

and yes, we need xm1r mini like 50gramm :D
it will be better than even my absolute favorite pulsar xlite

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axaro1
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Re: Example Blur Busters Success Story: Incubating Research on Mouse 1000Hz vs 8000Hz

Post by axaro1 » 03 Mar 2022, 08:17

Slender wrote:
03 Mar 2022, 07:30
definitely in such shooters as cod, bf you will feel the difference.
But in games like quake, for example, even a reduction from 1000 to 500 gives an advantage in tracking, sacrificing smoothness and may delay (on powerful, properly configured systems)
I'm not a big fan of sacrificing polling rate, 500hz with 280hz and 390hz monitors doesn't really feel usable at all.
I'd rather use 400 DPI if I want my aim to feel more predictable but even then I'd rather use 800/1000 to have a little bit more control over microcorrections.
Slender wrote:
03 Mar 2022, 07:30
and yes, we need xm1r mini like 50gramm :D
I weight reduced my XM1r to 55g and it was crazy good, unfortunately a screw broke inside the shell and I bent the main clicks to try and remove it, since there was no shell replacement I had to trash it (but I'm still trying to make the PCB fit into the Viper Mini shell, I'm very close to making the side switches fit, the main clicks are already perfectly in place).
Slender wrote:
03 Mar 2022, 07:30
it will be better than even my absolute favorite pulsar xlite
Since my Xm1r is RIP I'm also using an ergo shape, the Outset AX, feels a little bit too big for my hands but feels very solid.

My next upgrade will most likely be the XM1 wireless, especially considering their recent plans to upgrade from 3370 to 3395.

Also their plan to use a dual core MCU for both the mouse and dongle to have 1 core always working to handle wireless and their approach to pipeline stages is very appealing from a latency standpoint, they surely have good developers.
XL2566K* | XV252QF* | LG C1* | HP OMEN X 25 | XL2546K | VG259QM | XG2402 | LS24F350[RIP]
*= currently owned



MONITOR: XL2566K custom VT: https://i.imgur.com/ylYkuLf.png
CPU: 5800x3d 102mhz BCLK
GPU: 3080FE undervolted
RAM: https://i.imgur.com/iwmraZB.png
MOUSE: Endgame Gear OP1 8k
KEYBOARD: Wooting 60he

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