Example Blur Busters Success Story: Incubating Research on Mouse 1000Hz vs 8000Hz

[slaver01]

I tried the viper8k but with negative feedback on its shape. Anyone tell me about the Sabre Pro 8k? Is it recommended as an 8k mouse?
It looks like the shape is better for big hands.

[Slender]

definitely in such shooters as cod, bf you will feel the difference.
But in games like quake, for example, even a reduction from 1000 to 500 gives an advantage in tracking, sacrificing smoothness and may delay (on powerful, properly configured systems)

I'm not a big fan of sacrificing polling rate, 500hz with 280hz and 390hz monitors doesn't really feel usable at all.
I'd rather use 400 DPI if I want my aim to feel more predictable but even then I'd rather use 800/1000 to have a little bit more control over microcorrections.

and yes, we need xm1r mini like 50gramm

I weight reduced my XM1r to 55g and it was crazy good, unfortunately a screw broke inside the shell and I bent the main clicks to try and remove it, since there was no shell replacement I had to trash it (but I'm still trying to make the PCB fit into the Viper Mini shell, I'm very close to making the side switches fit, the main clicks are already perfectly in place).

it will be better than even my absolute favorite pulsar xlite

Since my Xm1r is RIP I'm also using an ergo shape, the Outset AX, feels a little bit too big for my hands but feels very solid.

My next upgrade will most likely be the XM1 wireless, especially considering their recent plans to upgrade from 3370 to 3395.

Also their plan to use a dual core MCU for both the mouse and dongle to have 1 core always working to handle wireless and their approach to pipeline stages is very appealing from a latency standpoint, they surely have good developers.

Anyway, I will never switch to wireless (I speak as a former owner of g pro and ultimate).
In any case, I am very glad that at least one of the manufacturers realized that the 3389 is a terrible sensor, even the fact that it gives smoothing unlike the older 3360 already says a lot, and the 3370 was mainly created for wireless mice.
About your xm1r, have you tried to create a model on a 3d printer?
I'm actually interested in a lightweight version of this mouse while maintaining the wired benefits.

[Slender]

I own 8k and xm1r at the moment, and I want to say that xm1r, and any mouse at 1000 hertz will behave more consistently and more stable than 2000, 4000, 8000.

Having both the XM1r and the Viper8khz I definitely prefer the XM1r although I can feel better consistency in tracking with the Viper 8khz.

The only two reasons why I choose the XM1r over the Viper are:

1) The XM1 has a better shape for my play style.

2) As confirmed by EGG developers, optical switches hit the sound barrier after you hear the click(and the click is registered), this means that, at least from my experience, clicks are less predictable and tactility, both with V1 and V2 opticals, isn't a reliable tool to understand when the click is effectively happening.

Here's an example with what I believe are Opticals V2 for my Viper Mini, if you slow down the video to 0.25 speed you can see it more clearly

phpBB [video]

This isn't the case with mechanical switches, that provide a better feeling, I'd take +1/2ms of click latency over any optical if it means that I can understand when the click is actually happening.

It is also true that mechanical switches degrade over time, with use, force, voltage, corrosion and level of quality out of the factory, degradation can affect pre and post debounce with traditional debouncing methods and latency can increase over time as the switch life span worsen over time, the analog tech is good at compensating for degradation but opticals definitely don't suffer from this issue.

My endgame would be an 8khz XM1 mini

definitely in such shooters as cod, bf you will feel the difference.
But in games like quake, for example, even a reduction from 1000 to 500 gives an advantage in tracking, sacrificing smoothness and may delay (on powerful, properly configured systems)

and yes, we need xm1r mini like 50gramm
it will be better than even my absolute favorite pulsar xlite

try pulsar xilte, only 38$ on maxgaming.

[Slender]

I tried the viper8k but with negative feedback on its shape. Anyone tell me about the Sabre Pro 8k? Is it recommended as an 8k mouse?
It looks like the shape is better for big hands.

No, bad mice
Just buy 8khz or wait atompalm

[stl8k]

phpBB [video]

[Eonds]

Perhaps, but I also reply to this thread for all readers -- not just that poster. There ARE many tricks that has successfully worked, with some big kudos in that old 8000 Hz thread with over 100,000 views (before I closed that thread).

Try 3 totally different motherboards too and a USB PCIe card. One of my systems was unable to even reach 4000 Hz but was fixed by installing a PCIe USB card and then mousetester was almost flat at 8KHz. It's similar to the USB Roulette Trick -- not all USB ports really do a good job, and you don't want to massively share the USB port.

i have i7 9700k 4.8 boost core clock,
benq 2540k 240hz monitor
msi z390 pro motherboard.
I have usb 3.1 and when testing in mousetester its between 4k to 5k maximum not stable 8khz.
i dont think my cpu cant handle it i even overclocked to stable 5.1 ghz but its still the same not smooth like when u set 8khz in windows(hidusfb).

I've had no issues with the razer 8khz on any game. I heavily tweak my own system. It's not even about CPU utilization (in most cases). Although yes more cpu load = more system stuttering. That's just how it works. I'm talking about very large FPS drops and unplayable game is not caused by resource constraints. It's either system timer/clock related or driver/os bug. Either way the mouse shape is pretty awful & 8khz will take a long time to be true 8khz due to a thousand factors, & on top of that the heavy CPU utilization could and likely does increase system latency !WHEN MOVING THE MOUSE! I've also noticed odd behavior with razer synapse. If you keep it open despite the program taking up resources, the mouse feels much better (I haven't measured it but I'm almost certain). Also with the program open you can make the LOD much higher as well. So clearly there's some weird driver/firmware/whatever going on with it. Honestly 8khz is good objectively but since we live in the real world with real HARDWARE constraints you really shouldn't be using it. Also I do like the optical switches a lot on the mouse for some reason. The shape is just awful though.

[ad8e]

Here's some code for engines that should mostly fix the OP jitter problem without needing a 8000 Hz mouse, plus a demo. It extrapolates the mouse position: if the mouse reports position 300 at time 0, then position 400 at time 1, and now it's time 1.5, you expect the mouse to be at 450, not 400. The top triangle reports the extrapolated position, and the bottom triangle reports the mouse-reported position:

vsync copy.7z

(2.11 MiB) Downloaded 274 times

There are some other moving parts (detection of mouse sampling rate, estimation of acceleration) that are less pure and make some assumptions.

I can't see any difference on my own machine, since my mouse (Steelseries Rival 3, TrueMove Core) has a large 1.5 pixel std dev jitter at my current CPI, and my monitor is 60 Hz. So the aliasing jitter (1000 Hz mouse, 60 Hz screen) is overwhelmed by the mouse jitter.

If you are doing just-in-time vsync, this method will only reduce mouse jitter by 29%, since Windows wakes up every 1 ms, and you probably shouldn't be busy-waiting. The 1000 Hz wakeup will add its noise to the 1000 Hz mouse. That's not a mouse problem though. So I turned it off for this demo, because the GPU wakeup should be more accurate and exhibit the effect better.

[ad8e]

I investigated the shockingly large jitter and it seems the GPU wakeup is in fact not accurate like I assumed. So I added a new toy to the demo: hold right click and it will draw green and purple triangles, with the color flipping each frame. If you drag it fast from left to right, you will see blue diamonds in the center. Unevenness in the diamond sizes means the mouse has jitter. This is a pretty good way to visualize mouse jitter.

There's 1 px quantization in the mouse position, so if you're dragging too slow, you'll just be seeing the quantization error.

diamonds.png (46.3 KiB) Viewed 14125 times

vsync copy.7z

(2.11 MiB) Downloaded 273 times

Also, this demo turns off the GPU double-buffer wakeup mechanism (that almost every game uses) and goes back to JIT vsync. Is it really true that every game has a 1 ms range of wakeup times? That seems a little large...

[superblural]

Perhaps, but I also reply to this thread for all readers -- not just that poster. There ARE many tricks that has successfully worked, with some big kudos in that old 8000 Hz thread with over 100,000 views (before I closed that thread).

Try 3 totally different motherboards too and a USB PCIe card. One of my systems was unable to even reach 4000 Hz but was fixed by installing a PCIe USB card and then mousetester was almost flat at 8KHz. It's similar to the USB Roulette Trick -- not all USB ports really do a good job, and you don't want to massively share the USB port.

What PCIe USB card did you use Chief?

[Chief Blur Buster]

What PCIe USB card did you use Chief?

This is the one I currently have: Rivo Xpress PCIe USB Riser Card

It was some random brand I purchased so it may not be the best, but as a simple chipset-offloader (I used only 1 port on the card), it works really nicely. It is somewhat overkill for that purpose, but many motherboards will give you better mouse pollrate performance at lower CPU utilization, if you offload your 8KHz mouse to spare PCIe lanes instead of chipset. YMMV.

I don't seem to be able to find it on Amazon USA, but it is on Amazon Canada.

I don't use the power cables, it is bus-powered for low power USB devices like mice.