Mouse Manufacturers -- 1000Hz Worse With New Ultraclear Displays -- Needs 2000Hz+ Poll Rates

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Mouse Manufacturers -- 1000Hz Worse With New Ultraclear Displays -- Needs 2000Hz+ Poll Rates

Post by Chief Blur Buster » 05 May 2022, 19:23

Attention: Employees At Gaming Mouse Manufacturers

Listen up, Logitech/Microsoft/Apple/Asus/Corsair/ROCAT/etc mouse employees et al.
Blur Busters recently incubated research that scientifically confirmed 1000Hz-vs-8000Hz is human visible.

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Firstly, credentials toot-toot time. We're cited in more than 25 peer reviewed research papers in the refresh rate race. Some research papers even incubated from Area 51 here, now vetted by academic journals and television manufacturers.

Heck, even NVIDIA cited us in one of their peer-reviewed science papers. Go ahead, click. Realize Blur Busters' outsized influence behind the scenes. Then pick up your jaw from the floor. Read on very carefully, mouse manufacturer padawans.

More than 100 million users worldwide view content creators that use Blur Busters inventions.
Let's start with the content gorillas.
- LinusTechTips, 14M subscribers, uses a BlurBusters invention
- RTINGS, 9M visitors per month, they use a peer-reviewed Blur Busters testing invention to test their televisions.
But that's only two content creators.

But we have several hundreds of content creators that use Blur Busters inventions now.
YouTubers, reviewers, magazines, bloggers, vloggers, etc.

Total it all up. Guess what?

Our inventions are used by creators far exceeding 100M unique-person views per month.

Can your gaming mouse company afford not to listen to Blur Busters?
The canary of the future displays?
The Hz cheerleaders?
The people who adjust prototype displays that esports will buy next year?
After all, we DO help display manufacturers, and we get to test 8KHz mice on displays of the future.
Guess what? 1000Hz is getting worse and worse!

As inventors of indie tests for hundreds of content creators, we have overweight cred in a nuts-and-bolts behind the scenes manner. Everytime you see our UFO, they're using one of our inventions. Not everyone knows Blur Busters directly, but many recognize our UFO trademark.

These forums have incubated research papers, including the research paper on Razer 8KHz mouse. With our cred, you better listen -- please spread this forum posts to your mouse engineers! Mouse manufacturers, have YOU vetted the displays currently used by your internal mouse-testing team? Have you yet chosen QA-testing displays that amplify 1000Hz limitations? Guess not. Gotcha.

The paper became visible open-access on ACM -- "Do We Need a Faster Mouse? Empirical Evaluation of Asynchronicity-Induced Jitter" https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3472749.3474783
And its open-access PDF (publicly visible, no paywall)

2000 Hz pollrate versus 8000 Hz pollrate has now become human-visible on some newer displays & upcoming displays

The earlier research paper on Razer 8KHz does not test strobed displays (display motion blur reduction modes). The paper concludes 2000Hz is the new threshold. But that's not the final frontier, when display variables change even further: Apparently, I can now tell apart 2000Hz-vs-4000Hz mouse poll rate, and 4000Hz-vs-8000Hz mouse poll rate even better on certain high-end strobing modes, at certain settings (that does perfect framerate=Hz).

The key test is strobing during synchronized framerate=Hz like a VSYNC ON, or newly invented low-latency versions of VSYNC ON that have now been recently invented by entities including NVIDIA. Most esports players use VSYNC OFF, but with the newly invented low-latency VSYNC modes, I personally was able to tell apart 2KHz versus 8KHz almost as easily as 1Khz versus 2KHz in certain custom tests (dragging a vertical line left/right in a custom DirectX app during strobed framerate=Hz, and watching the resulting stroboscopics)!

Obviously, you need to jump 4x higher after 2000Hz to really tell the difference beyond 2000Hz, but the fact that 2000Hz-vs-8000Hz is still human visible in a good geometric scale up the curve of diminishing returns in an era where improved displays shifts the visibility thresholds even further. Further research are now needed, to confirm the rapid-shifting of weak links caused by technology improvement. As the #1 Internet incubator of indie research ideas, a factory of ideas for researchers in the refresh rate race. If you need to commission new research under new variables for esports of the future, go ahead. You'll see 8Khz mice are worth it.

Did you know that motion blur reduction modes can make 1000Hz imperfections even more human-visible?

Example: BenQ DyAc, NVIDIA ULMB, ViewSonic PureXP, ASUS ELMB, ACER VRB, Gigabyte Aim Stabilizer.
They all can make 1000Hz mouse imperfections even more human-visible.
Tiny mouse jitters are hidden by display motion blur of yesterday's displays.
Newer displays combined with ultra-high-quality low-latency motion blur reduction, makes 1000Hz jitters even more visible.

A 0.1% jitter (0.111) error on movements of 20 pixel per frame, is 2 pixels. This is not visible in 20 pixels of display motion blur of yesteryear esports displays without strobing. But guess what happens if it becomes CRT motion clarity concurrently with ultra high spatial resolution? Voila. Tiny 6-point text like at www.testufo.com/map (except if smoothly dragged by a mouse at maps.google.com instead) becomes unreadable with 2-pixel jitter. You can no longer read street name labels while eye tracking.

1. Get an adjustable strobed display and turn on strobing at 120Hz refresh rate (120Hz and 240Hz has more jitter error than 144Hz)
2. Use a photodiode oscilloscope to verify strobe flashes are 0.5ms or less. (0.5ms MPRT). Adjust monitor settings until you get this.
3. View www.testufo.com/map with strobing turned on. (Perfect framepacing).
4. Adjust motion speed to about 20 pixels per frame (120Hz x 20 = 1200 pixels/sec)
5. Notice how strobing makes panning map perfectly readable like a CRT tube?
6. Now view maps.google.com and drag your mouse at the same speed. (Mouse jittered)
7. Try to read tiny street name labels
8. Test #6 it at 1000Hz.
9. Test #6 it at 2000Hz.
10. Test #6 it at 8000Hz.
11. Notice 2000 Hz vs 8000 Hz is human visible on Google Maps.

Item #3 and Item #10 are equally clear, 8000Hz almost produces perfect framepacing, as long as the computer is properly 8000Hz compatible, and if Google Chrome engine can keep up (good drivers, good USB port, fast GPU).

10% jitter (0.1) = 2 pixels of shakyblur at 20 pixels per frame. That's enough to make 6-point text almost unreadable while trying to read Google Maps while panning it at 1200 pixels/sec.

Bingo. MicdropSlamDunk.

0.111 error now becomes red squares in Sunjun Kim's excellent recent 8Khz research paper!
And that's a cherrypicked 1080p test. Future 4K 0.5ms strobed displays brings this more commonly into real-world gaming situations.

The paper just tested today's displays without strobing. Totally fair. It does not account for displays of the future, running games of the future, using new blur-free stutter-free sync technologies of the future. What this means is mouse manufacturers needs to begin planning more quickly for an 8Khz future.

Mouse manufacturers, please add motion blur reduction modes to your gaming-mouse tests. Your earlier "2000Hz+ is worthless" tests may be invalidated with improved display technology. There is now a research paper that shows higher-Hz mice can yield improvements.

In addition, some improved "low-lag VSYNC ON emulator" tricks can make blur-free motion so smooth, that 1000Hz mice can have quite noticeably more stutters/jitters than 2000Hz+, because of aliasing between display Hz and mouse Hz.
AquariusLuLu wrote:
25 Apr 2022, 19:54
Hey Chief,

I’ve tried asking this question to the community on this forum a few times regarding monitor settings for the XG2431 in regards to console gaming at 60FPS (apex legends). I’ve tried blur at 0 and everything looks kinda rough as well as light PureXp and it seems a little off when I quickly move left/right/up/down. Any recommendations for someone who plays fps games on console? Thanks and hope to hear from you.
Solution: Use FrameRate = Hz

IMPORTANT: Do not use raw uncalibrated VSYNC OFF if you hate stutter

Yes, yes, VSYNC OFF adds lag, but VSYNC OFF can be "visual garbage" for stutter-free jitter-free strobing.

The problem is strobing amplifies stutters and jitters because there is no motion blur to hide stutters and jitters. Fix Them

Find a way to emulate VSYNC ON, but at lower input lag.

Use one of the framerate=Hz methods:
1. Use VSYNC ON. Easiest, bug laggiest.
2. Use VSYNC ON + NVIDIA NULL. Still very easy, and lower lag.
3. Use HOWTO: Low Lag VSYNC ON. Slightly harder but still easy.
4. Use Windows app: RTSS Scanline Sync (Tearingless Stutterless VSYNC OFF) (anticheat approved, yay!)
5. Use Windows app: Special K Latent Sync (Tearingless Stutterless VSYNC OFF) (not yet anticheat approved, unfortunately)
6. If you can tolerate tearing but hate stutters, use VSYNC OFF + RTSS decimal frame rate cap exactly matching www.testufo.com/refreshrate -- May need to RTSS because it's more decimal-accurate than in-game frame rate cap.
(Warning: #6 will create semi-stationary tearline, but at stutters & jitters disappear if GPU load falls below ~75%-ish.)

Additional recommendation:
A. Use Razer 8KHz mouse to eliminate strobed jitters during panning. Use at least 2000Hz for your mouse.
B. Lower your refresh rate if GPU cannot reach framerate=Hz. 120fps perfect stutterfree looks better than 240Hz stuttery.
C. To reduce latency of lower refresh rates, use QFT tricks to reduce lag of lower Hz.
(e.g. 120Hz refresh cycles displayed in 1/240sec via Quick Frame Transport VT2250)

IMPORTANT: Start testing only the easiest methods first. The scanline sync methods #4 or #5 are sometimes difficult and finicky (RTSS or Special K) requires the GPU to only be 50% processing in order to be successful. So you need to do 200-300fps (at 100% GPU) during raw uncapped VSYNC OFF in order to successfully do perfect 120fps 120Hz stutterfree tearingfree PureXP. Also, QFT makes scanline sync methods easier by making it easier to hide the tearline in a super-large blanking interval offscreen between refresh cycles.

Best Kept Esports Secret For Blur Busters Educated Professionals

Two years ago, before the XG2431, a panning-dependent RTS esports player (eye tracking during panning RTS) messaged me that they won championship prize money when they utilized a slightly lower refresh rate with a strobed display, combined with RTSS Scanline Sync, for the lowest possible latency method of a "perfect VSYNC ON clone" recommended for better-than-CRT strobing.

It's very hard without enough computer skill, to clone low VSYNC OFF latency into a "clone of VSYNC ON at low lag", without tearing and jitters, but it's possible at a lower refresh rate with those "low-Hz-latency-reducing" tricks. The prize money was won in one of the RTS game (I forgot if it was DOTA2 or LoL). Most esports players don't have enough tweaking skills to pull this off, so this remains a best-kept-secret even to this date.

Manufacturers such as NVIDIA is now creating new technologies that emulate VSYNC ON, with the low latency of VSYNC OFF, to create a better-than-VSYNC-OFF mode custom-designed for strobed displays (sync technology that works better with motion blur reduction modes).

Don't Forget To Fix Mouse Jitters Too!

When you got perfect stutterless framerate=Hz simultaneously with motion blur reduction, suddenly additional weak links show up (including human-visible 2000Hz-versus-8000Hz mouse pollrates). 1000Hz gaming mice ceases to be enough to eliminate stutters/jitters completely, since there is no longer anymore display motion blur to hide those tiny 1000Hz mouse jitters in the past. Display motion of the best displays have become so clear, that 1000Hz poll rate stopped being enough.

- Use true 2000Hz setting. Even 2000Hz is 90% as good as 8000Hz, but uses 75% less CPU in mouse driver.
- 1000Hz mice is sometimes not smooth enough for jitter-free strobing.
- Not all games work well at >1000Hz poll, so your mileage will vary.
- Not all computers work well at >1000Hz poll, so tweak as needed.
(e.g. Some tricks are available such as PCIe USB card that works better than bad motherboard USB ports)

It is already scientifically proven by a researcher that 1000Hz is not enough for computer mice.
1000Hz can randomize the step size between mouse cursor (or panning steps, or scrolling steps) = jittery LoL pans!

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Note: Research only tested current common esports displays. Currently, 0.111 errors become human-visible on 0.5ms MPRT 4K strobed displays of the future. Those squares becomes white or red, shifting the threshold towards the right.

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But it actually becomes much worse than the above in real world LoL because different refresh rates & strobing can also amplify the visibility of jitter randomization.

We have seen situations where the jitter is much worse (10x worse) than this, because of certain refresh rates interacting with certain poll rates, can produce much worse effects. Odd refresh rates like 390 Hz can sometimes have more weird-looking jitter, as refresh rates gets closer to 1000Hz poll rate.

To top it off, combining ultrahigh resolution with strobing amplifies visibility. A 4K strobed display amplifies visibility of 1000Hz jitter at the same frame rate. Whereupon a 1080p might have a 3 pixel jitter error for a specific 1000Hz mouse at a specific mouse speed -- a 4K display can have 6 pixel jitter error at the exact same physical inches-per-second screen movement. Double dpi = double pixels of jitter at same physical motion speed (same size display) = more human visible if the pixels are perfectly CRT clear on prototype 4K ultraclear strobed displays (0.5ms MPRT).

Better spatial resolution (of 4K) + better temporal resolution (of strobing) = amplifies human-visibility of 2000Hz versus 8000Hz. With GPU frame rate amplification technologies, NVIDIA is already working on that technology. 4K 1000fps is possible by the end of this decade -- don't be left behind.

To begin with, does your test suite have any high-end ultraclear 1440p 240Hz strobing or 4K 240Hz strobing yet, of the prototype displays I have seen? Yes, 1080p is the esports standard today, but it wasn't in 2006 when 1024x768 was more the esports standard. Do you know what year 2030 will bring?

Stutter is Same Thing As Erratic Latency

They're exactly the same thing. The worse the stutter, the worse erraticness the lag is. Some games gets better esports scores if you've got perfect-lag-consistency, instead of low-but-erratic latency. That's why Hz-lowering sometimes works for certain games where you are eye-tracking all over the screen (games that don't have a crosshairs) -- like DOTA, LoL, Rocket League, and other crosshairsless games that benefit from this best-kept esports secret.

But what if you can have cake and eat it too? Higher Hz with perfect framepacing? Improved GPUs, improved games, improved displays, will make that possible in the future.

A neat way to spin this is that this means 0.5ms lag is human-visible indirectly via strobe-amplified mouse jitter. You can't feel 0.5ms lag differences, but it's actually human visible as a stutter error. 0.5ms lag erraticness means 1 pixel of jitter at 2000 pixels/sec (about 1 screenwidth per second at 1080p). But on 4K, that's 2 pixels of jitter at 4000 pixels/sec (about 1 screenwidth per second on 4K).

See? Use your nerf bat to your fellow researcher in the next cubicle who claim 1ms lag is not human-visible. They're not "thinking outside the box" with the correct scientific variables used in the displays of the future.

New Scientific Variables For Future Research Papers On 2000 Hz Versus 8000 Hz Poll Rates

Key new scientific research variable showing 2000Hz is not enough:
1. Perfect frame pacing (new VR-quality low latency framerate=Hz technologies ported to desktop screens).
2. MPRT (0.5ms) equal or smaller than the poll cycle.
3. MPRT (0.5ms) with motion blur (in pixels) smaller than mouse jitter error (in pixels)

Once 1+2+3 is combined, 2000Hz is not enough. That's when the jitter becomes visible again. In other words, 0.5ms MPRT = 1/2000sec MPRT = 2000Hz mouse no longer enough to fully hide jitter if jitter is big enough (e.g. 2 pixels jitter at 20 pixels per frame, and 0.5ms MPRT means 1200 pixels/sec has only 0.6 pixels of motion blur. 0.6 pixels of motion blur is smaller than 2 pixels of mouse jitter at 2000 Hz. That's why 2000 Hz versus 8000 Hz is human visible on a 0.5ms MPRT strobed display, for combinations with 0.1% jitter. Formerly a green square, becomes a red square, in new tests.

Yes, Exact Same Problem Affect Game Turns and Game Panning Too

Please read Stroboscopic Effect of Finite Frame Rates, except the stepping is more erratic with 1000Hz than with 8000Hz mice.

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What happens is that the steps are more erratic when pollrates are only 1000Hz, especially when you're doing framerate=Hz technologies (the new low-lag VSYNC ON clones that are superior to VSYNC OFF in some esports games now) concurrently with display motion blur modes such as ULMB, ELMB, VRB, PureXP, AimStabilizer, etc.

Weak Links Hiding 1000 Hz Limitations Are Slowly Disappearing

It's true that some motherboards are having problems with 8KHz. But the motherboard manufacturers are fixing them. And you can use a PCIe USB card to work around 8000 Hz problems. Games are getting better. New game developers are making their games compatible with 8Khz. Many newer games play beautifully at 2000 Hz at least, and often 4000Hz. The best motherboard implementations even now has no problems with 8000Hz.

Yes, there's lots of weak links. Bad programming. Game stutter. Bad USB ports. Bad USB drivers. Even old Realtek sound drivers also sometimes interfere with 8000Hz. Overloaded motherboards. Background software. Older displays. Non-strobed displays.

But the whole industry is improving all of them. Does your internal mouse QA department know that 1000Hz is not worthless? That engineer who keeps screaming that 2000Hz is useless? Does that engineer have as many peer reviewed research papers as we do? Stop listening to your QA department if they're testing on outdated equipment and outdated game software versions that they don't yet have access to.

Please upgrade your QA testing suite accordingly for the fancy esports rigs of the future, so you can finally work on 8000 Hz mice before you're left behind by competitors. Sure, there's lots of complaints by Razer 8Khz users, but that's from buggy games, older rigs, bad USB ports, older displays, and older sync technologies. Some of them can be detected by writing a "8000 Hz Mouse Performance Check" to rate your system as "8KHz Ready". Easy wizard software to confirm the quality of 8000Hz is possible to write, if you hire a programmer to do so, to vet the esports system before confirming 8KHz works well on that specific computer (for 8Khz-friendly games).

All the weak links are being concurrently worked on, shifting the major stutter weak link to 1000Hz mice -- on some prototype rigs with ultra-well framepaced games, with the latest RTX GPUs -- the 1000 Hz poll rate has finally become the main stutter weak link!

Can you afford to be complacent, fellow mouse manufacturer?

Long Term: High Definition Mouse Extensions API

We are discussing the possibility of an improved mouse drivers that reduces CPU overhead, and allows 1000Hz mice to emulate the accuracy of 8000Hz poll rate. Please read High Definition Mouse API Extensions.

<Shameless Plug>
Not sure what to do to improve the QA testing department at your mouse manufacturing company? Feel free to hire us for consulting services to advise on improving your QA testing rigs. I have already flown over the Atlantic and Pacific oceans to vendors and manufacturers too.

You can hire Blur Busters visit you for a fancy high-Hz show (engineers friendly & project manager friendly & even CEO friendly) to help demonstrate 1000Hz-vs-8000Hz human visibility in your conference room, utilizing gaming computers and displays of the future. If your employees can't reproduce what we see, we can come and visit you, and demonstrate in person of human-visible pollrate limitations.

Email: <[email protected]> with Subject Line: "Blur Busters Consulting Services".
</Shameless Plug>

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