OLED 240hz lg-27gr95qe-b and G-Sync Brightness Flicker

[pzkY]

As I noted previously in this topic, with current-gen OLED, this form of flicker will happen during VRR operation whenever the frametime performance is sporadic enough. It's not directly framerate related.

That's not the issue though. I've limited the framerate to 50, which I can sustain at my tested environment without any issues. The frametime is at a rock-stable 20ms.
The issue with the VRR is, that the refresh rate of the monitor bounces around between 170Hz to 230Hz, thus causing the flicker.
This is just ridiculous and I have no clue how this can even happen, if the frametime is fluctuating not even a little bit.
The LFC is just trash, really, if that's what is causing the refresh rate bouncing. I'd rather disable it and play at 50 Hz, than have this bull.

Your old model didn't exhibit the near-black VRR flicker because it wasn't an OLED panel.

From what I know, the flickering not only on dark scenes, but all, isn't an OLED specific issue, but happens on all panel types.
At first I thought this was due to no "real hardware controller" for G-Sync, but due to the open solution which makes it work for FreeSync and also G-Sync compatible.
Somewhere I read that this is not the case though and this also happens on "real" G-Sync monitors, which I highly doubt tbh.

[jorimt]

The issue with the VRR is, that the refresh rate of the monitor bounces around between 170Hz to 230Hz, thus causing the flicker.

Is it only the monitor OSD meter reflecting this, or both it and the system-side average FPS readouts as well? Because if it's only the monitor meter, those are infamously unreliable, especially on FreeSync monitors in G-SYNC Compatible mode, where they include LFC multiples in their number, and do not fully reflect the actual average framerate from moment-to-moment.

Also, I just checked, and the 27GR95QE-B does not contain a G-SYNC module; it's only a FreeSync model with official G-SYNC Compatible certification, which equals software/driver-level VRR operation.

Regardless, as I stated previously, even if it did have a module, it would not prevent OLED VRR flicker.

From what I know, the flickering not only on dark scenes, but all, isn't an OLED specific issue, but happens on all panel types.

VRR-induced flicker can indeed occur on all panel types, but as I've explained multiple times in this thread, OLED has a specific form of VRR flicker that LCD does not, and visa-versa.

It can also be true that LCD monitors containing G-SYNC modules are typically better at avoiding certain forms of VRR flicker that some G-SYNC Compatible FreeSync monitors may not.

[pzkY]

Is it only the monitor OSD meter reflecting this, or both it and the system-side average FPS readouts as well? Because if it's only the monitor meter, those are infamously unreliable, especially on FreeSync monitors in G-SYNC Compatible mode, where they include LFC multiples in their number, and do not fully reflect the actual average framerate from moment-to-moment.

I'm not sure what you mean with system wide, but it's the FPS Meter of the monitor which shows the current refresh rate used. The frametime is measured with MSI Afterburner.

Also, I just checked, and the 27GR95QE-B does not contain a G-SYNC module; it's only a FreeSync model with official G-SYNC Compatible certification, which equals software/driver-level VRR operation.

Sorry, but that's exactly what I said, at least I think I did so. If that didn't get through due to my wording, then so be it.

Regardless, as I stated previously, even if it did have a module, it would not prevent OLED VRR flicker.

I don't think that it's OLED specific what I am talking about, since you stated that OLED specific flickering is in dark scenes, or rather near black, and not all.
Since you (we?) don't want to understand though, I'll make a video and upload it and you can judge yourself if it's still OLED specific or just the extraordinarily bad G-Sync.

[jorimt]

I'm not sure what you mean with system wide

"System-side," like the Afterburner FPS readout.

Sorry, but that's exactly what I said, at least I think I did so. If that didn't get through due to my wording, then so be it.

You said, and I quote, "This monitor's G-Sync module, or rather VRR-module, feels like trash to me." So I took that as you meaning you thought it had a module, but if it doesn't have a G-SYNC module, it doesn't have any module.

I don't think that it's OLED specific what I am talking about, since you stated that OLED specific flickering is in dark scenes, or rather near black, and not all.
Since you (we?) don't want to understand though, I'll make a video and upload it and you can judge yourself if it's still OLED specific or just the extraordinarily bad G-Sync.

The near-black flicker can manifest in brighter scenes as well, it's just that anything closer to black will visibly flicker in darker or brighter scenes due to unavoidable micro gamma-level shifts during rapid real-time refresh rate changes on OLED.

Anyway, we're talking past each other at this point. Do/think what you will, but it seems that you're unhappy enough with your purchase that it may be better for you to return it and wait for OLED VRR monitor implementation to mature, because all OLED models (TV or monitor) are going to exhibit VRR flicker to a degree right now, with or without a module.

It's part of the reason I personally stopped at the LG CX and am now predominately using my 240Hz LCD w/G-SYNC module for gaming right now.

[pzkY]

Sorry, but that's exactly what I said, at least I think I did so. If that didn't get through due to my wording, then so be it.

You said, and I quote, "This monitor's G-Sync module, or rather VRR-module, feels like trash to me." So I took that as you meaning you thought it had a module, but if it doesn't have a G-SYNC module, it doesn't have any module.

At first I thought this was due to no "real hardware controller" for G-Sync, but due to the open solution which makes it work for FreeSync and also G-Sync compatible.

My wording is mainly because I don't know if there's a module in it or not to realize VRR. If there wasn't, then all monitors should be able to do FreeSync some way or other, in my mind, I could be wrong though.

Anyway, we're talking past each other at this point. Do/think what you will, but it seems that you're unhappy enough with your purchase that it may be better for you to return it and wait for OLED VRR monitor implementation to mature, because all OLED models (TV or monitor) are going to exhibit VRR flicker to a degree right now, with or without a module.

It's part of the reason I personally stopped at the LG CX and am now predominately using my 240Hz LCD w/G-SYNC module for gaming right now.

I just want to make sure if it's something that can be fixed by firmware updates or not, even if the chances are slim LG will do this. (You can tell me about the CX, if they ever gave you firmware updates at all).
Hence my discussion about this and why I want to make a video, so you can see what is actually happening and if it's actually the OLED-flickering or if it's because of bad G-Sync.
Just wait a bit, I'm currently sitting in online classes and even writing this message took me quite a while.

Otherwise, in SDR without G-Sync I'm overall pretty happy with it, except for the lack of settings (no standard profile in which we can edit all as we want, including DAS).
The HDR and G-Sync on the other hand are...lacking, quite a bit.
Just enabling HDR washes out colors, even in HDR supported games and G-Sync, well, you know that part.

[jorimt]

My wording is mainly because I don't know if there's a module in it or not to realize VRR. If there wasn't, then all monitors should be able to do FreeSync some way or other, in my mind, I could be wrong though.

Hypothetically, any monitor can support basic software-level VRR operation, but unless there's more specific work done at the firmware, EDID and driver-level, said support will be very limited and prone to issues (various forms of flicker, screen blanking, lack of any or proper LFC, etc).

All FreeSync monitors (G-SYNC Compatible or no) do not contain any dedicated modules, and instead make use of the default panel scaler, firmware, EDID, and driver functionality for VRR operation.

I just want to make sure if it's something that can be fixed by firmware updates or not, even if the chances are slim LG will do this. (You can tell me about the CX, if they ever gave you firmware updates at all).
Hence my discussion about this and why I want to make a video, so you can see what is actually happening and if it's actually the OLED-flickering or if it's because of bad G-Sync.

There is an existing workaround that was added post-release in a firmware update to specifically handle it on the CX onward called "Fine Tuning Dark Areas" with a -30/30+ adjustment available during VRR operation that allows gamma to be lightened/darkened manually to mitigate the flicker, but it's a static and incomplete solution, and I don't know if it's available on monitor models.

I looked at your model's manual, and the closest I can find is "Black Stabilizer." If it allows negative adjustments when VRR is enabled, it's probably the same thing.

The reason OLED has this form of VRR flicker, is the gamma response is tuned to the maximum physical refresh rate of the monitor, but since VRR adjusts the refresh rate in real-time, each "Hz" deviates slightly from that single fixed gamma level, causing the gamma of the panel to be slightly brighter/darker at individual "Hz," meaning 60 FPS VRR @240Hz will have a slightly different gamma brightness from 61 FPS VRR @240Hz, etc. So whenever the change is rapid enough, the difference between gamma brightness at the various framerates is enough to cause the appearance of flicker.

Bottom line? There's no dynamic software-level fix that can fully resolve this on current-gen OLED panels. It would have to be a hardware revision that has yet to be made on WOLED or QD-OLED. They all flicker in the same way.

Your manual even states you may experience flicker in VRR mode:

Just enabling HDR washes out colors, even in HDR supported games.

PC HDR is currently a mess. HDR is great for movies, and in some cases, for console, but I still resort to SDR for PC games myself.

[pzkY]

Hypothetically, any monitor can support basic software-level VRR operation, but unless there's more specific work done at the firmware, EDID and driver-level, said support will be very limited and prone to issues (various forms of flicker, screen blanking, lack of any or proper LFC, etc).

All FreeSync monitors (G-SYNC Compatible or no) do not contain any dedicated modules, and instead make use of the default panel scaler, firmware, EDID, and driver functionality for VRR operation.

So basically, I'll only get "real" G-Sync monitors in the future, if I want to have the best experience with it. Except I'll buy an AMD card, then it wouldn't make sense. (or do they also work with FreeSync then?)

I looked at your model's manual, and the closest I can find is "Black Stabilizer." If it allows negative adjustments when VRR is enabled, it's probably the same thing.

Sadly, this doesn't help. Though, as you see further below, I might have another issue causing my flickering.

Bottom line? There's no dynamic software-level fix that can fully resolve this on current-gen OLED panels. It would have to be a hardware revision that has yet to be made on WOLED or QD-OLED. They all flicker in the same way.

That sucks, really.

Just enabling HDR washes out colors, even in HDR supported games.

PC HDR is currently a mess. HDR is great for movies, and in some cases, for console, but I still resort to SDR for PC games myself.

Yea, I can imagine why, even though it's been out for years now it's still incomplete. Though the washed out colors are on the desktop as well, no matter if it's Mac or Windows, so I figure it's the color preset that's applied by the monitor, which sucks, besides the implementation in games.

Hence my discussion about this and why I want to make a video, so you can see what is actually happening and if it's actually the OLED-flickering or if it's because of bad G-Sync.
Just wait a bit, I'm currently sitting in online classes and even writing this message took me quite a while.

I did the video and noticed something, so I had to do two videos.

You can see the flickering here (ignore the audio):

phpBB [video]

Afterwards I wanted to see if this also happens in a bright game, so I booted up Kovaaks, which is overall mostly white and see there, the issue is gone, except for the brown ceiling. That one flickers again.
The game gave me issues with starting G-Sync though, since it only applies while it's actually in-game and not in the menu, so I enabled the G-Sync indicator.
The indicator is flickering as well, which makes it seem that G-Sync is enabling/disabling all the time, which seems to be the cause of the heavy flickering I'm experiencing.

G-Sync indicator issue here:

phpBB [video]

I don't know if that's normal or not, but I doubt it is. I will do a clean driver reinstall with DDU and see if it still persists, until then, maybe you can tell me if this is happening on your system as well?

[jorimt]

So basically, I'll only get "real" G-Sync monitors in the future, if I want to have the best experience with it. Except I'll buy an AMD card, then it wouldn't make sense. (or do they also work with FreeSync then?)

So long as the G-SYNC Compatible FreeSync display has an equivalent physical refresh rate and LFC range, and is "officially" certified by Nvidia, then (other than the lack of variable overdrive on 99% of FreeSync displays) it's usually a comparable experience to an otherwise identical display containing a G-SYNC module, it's just that FreeSync display model quality varies quite heavily, while G-SYNC native display models don't as much (there's also way less of them).

As for using FreeSync with an AMD GPU on a G-SYNC native model, the newest G-SYNC module variants have started supporting that functionality, but not all do, so you'd have to ensure that first, and even then, an Nvidia GPU may still work better on those models in G-SYNC (module) mode than an AMD GPU would in FreeSync mode, since I don't think the AMD GPU would actually be using the module in that case.

Afterwards I wanted to see if this also happens in a bright game, so I booted up Kovaaks, which is overall mostly white and see there, the issue is gone, except for the brown ceiling. That one flickers again.

What you're describing above in particular is indeed OLED-specific VRR flicker.

The game gave me issues with starting G-Sync though, since it only applies while it's actually in-game and not in the menu, so I enabled the G-Sync indicator.
The indicator is flickering as well, which makes it seem that G-Sync is enabling/disabling all the time, which seems to be the cause of the heavy flickering I'm experiencing.

[...]

I don't know if that's normal or not, but I doubt it is. I will do a clean driver reinstall with DDU and see if it still persists, until then, maybe you can tell me if this is happening on your system as well?

First off, if you're using RTSS to limit the framerate, so long as the framerate is sustained at the set limit, RTSS will show the frametime graph as perfectly flat, even if there are variances, so it doesn't mean there aren't any occurring.

That said, to rule out any G-SYNC configuration issues, ensure you're using G-SYNC "Enable for full screen mode" + NVCP Vertical sync "On" + a framerate limit at least 3 frames below the current physical refresh rate (I assume you're using a 50 FPS RTSS limit in the videos).

As for the G-SYNC Indicator, I own Hogwarts Legacy as well, and it's not flickering in and out for me on the menu screen on either my native G-SYNC LCD display, or my G-SYNC Compatible FreeSync OLED display.

What operating system are you on, and have you ever messed with regedits for fullscreen optimizations or the like? Because it looks potentially like a flip model issue; try also ruling out MPO:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10730&p=87330&hilit=mpo#p87330

Anyway, whether you're experiencing flickering issues above and beyond the typical OLED flicker on your particular model is the question; I don't own it, so I can't speak to that firsthand. You'd have to exchange it to determine whether what you're seeing is normal for that model or specific to your particular unit.

All I can tell you is I get OLED-specific flicker on my CX in VRR mode whenever my frametime is unstable enough, and again, ensuring consistent frametime performance in the given game mitigates the flicker in normal gameplay. To be clear, it will still flicker during loading screens or frametime spikes (asset loading, auto saving, etc).

[Pootklopp]

Hello, I just picked this monitor up and have noticed some flickering (only really in Escape from tarkov) in my limited testing. If I find the flickering to be too much in a game do you have a recommendation for optimal settings for games where I would want to stop the flicker? Ideally keeping the highest fps and minimizing any negative drawbacks.

I'm coming from a 144hz IPS and always followed the gsync on, vsync on, -3fps offset.

Thanks!

[jorimt]

Hello, I just picked this monitor up and have noticed some flickering (only really in Escape from tarkov) in my limited testing. If I find the flickering to be too much in a game do you have a recommendation for optimal settings for games where I would want to stop the flicker?

I have answered that more than once in this thread. See:

Long story short, the worse or more sporadic the frametime performance is in a game, the worse the near-black OLED VRR flicker will be.

The only way to avoid this on current-gen LG OLED panels during VRR operation is to use an external limiter like RTSS to set an FPS limit that can be sustained 99% of the time in the given game.

I.E. you want the RTSS limit to be the framerate's limiting factor the majority of the time. As long as it is, RTSS will stabilize frametime performance, which should reduce the near-black flicker to a minimum.

As I noted previously in this topic, with current-gen OLED, this form of flicker will happen during VRR operation whenever the frametime performance is sporadic enough. It's not directly framerate related.

You'll need to determine your 99% sustainable average framerate (per game) and cap just below it with RTSS to ensure steady frametime performance during VRR operation, which should mitigate the near-black VRR flicker to acceptable levels.