When will CRT simulation be available for Consoles?

[NeonPizza]

I was just wondering when this CRT Simulation Algorithm, will eventually become available as some sort of App, or integrated into a console update for Nintendo Switch & PS5, or the latest LG & Samsung OLED/QD-OLED displays.

I'd love to get a 2025 165hz QD-OLED(Samsung S95F) this year, and eventually use CRT Simulation, so I can cut down nearly 64% of that pesky OLED motion Blur. Also wondering how much input lag it introduces or adds, to the already present 10ms of lag in Game mode for Samsung & LG's latest OLED's, when gaming at 60fps?

We already know that >

it reduces 58% of OLED Motion blur for 144hz QD-OLED/OLED TV's, and nearly 64% for 165hz QD-OLED/OLED TV's. It offers a brighter picture than internal OLED BFI, less visable flicker, works at 4K, and doesn't have any negative impact on gamma. That's all mighty impressive. So excited about the almost 64% MB reduction. That's HUGE. It's like getting 'clean' plasma-tier motion without any weird phosphor decay trailing, motion dithering(etc) that can totally hinder plasma motion, as it does with my Panasonic S60 plasma.

I guess it's just a matter of time(By 2030) before we get blur-free motion clarity, and hopefully 5ms or less of input lag, with customizable CRT shaders & Scanlines. If this becomes a thing, it would make CRT's no longer valuable, other than for nostalgia and retro-authenticity. Besides, CRT's will continue to lose brightness over time, black levels will raise, colours will lose saturation(etc), or they'll eventually stop working all together period.

[RonsonPL]

Probably never or not anytime soon

Sony pushing AI upscalling would shoot themselves in the foot if people could see how bad their upscalling is for motion reproduction quality.
Also, they don't want to talk about how good 480Hz displays are while also pushing 30fps games as "cinematic experience".
They also would need to talk about flaws of display compression or switch to HDMI 2.2 and I'm not sure if 2.2 will be the norm for next Xbox and PS6, if the rumors of them being pulled from 2028 to 2027 or even 2026 are true.

What's obviously good for gamers is rarely noticed by Sony's corporate ignorants. Examples:
- releasing a new console and fixing the USB connected controller's input lag only after over a year. It doesn't take a genius to realize the lower input lag can be useful for gamers who don't mind playing with a cable attached to their controller
- absolutely stupid issues with settings, blocking some useful features like BFI by default because some other less important feature is enabled and there's no option to disable it. Or ruining the others (like forcing 120Hz refresh rate for a 60fps game)
- not implementing 1:1 scaling for retro content
- not supporting driving wheels on a console which physically supports them, just because they decided they want to milk people on licensing and licensed hardware for PS4 is not good for PS5, for some reason. This shows their undertanding of what core gamers want


If they implement both CRT simulations, for both image and motion quality, then suddenly old PS2 and PS3 games will look awesome. Who will buy another re-re-re-release of PS2's Devil May Cry for PS6 in such a case?


The only hope is in people like the Chief here, John Carmack or John from Digital Foundry. People like this are the only people who can even hope to reach the corporate ignorants and convince them to do the obvious steps.

Anyway. Just get the Retrotink now or after new HDMI 2.2 version comes out (probably not before 2027, I'm afraid)

[thatoneguy]

Good thing that there’s also Xbox and Nintendo then
But Sony always shifts their position anyways, the whole mantra of the PS5 Pro was muh 60fps at 4K with higher settings or something

That said CRT simulator won’t be great for everyone because it flickers

IMO Console/Video Game companies should just nut up for a generation and target 100fps/120fps with lower graphics frame reprojected to 480fps and shill high refresh rate displays to the normies and also pressure TV manufacturers like LG and Samsung and Panasonic etc. to bring 480hz to their OLED TVs

[NeonPizza]

Good thing that there’s also Xbox and Nintendo then
But Sony always shifts their position anyways, the whole mantra of the PS5 Pro was muh 60fps at 4K with higher settings or something

That said CRT simulator won’t be great for everyone because it flickers

IMO Console/Video Game companies should just nut up for a generation and target 100fps/120fps with lower graphics frame reprojected to 480fps and shill high refresh rate displays to the normies and also pressure TV manufacturers like LG and Samsung and Panasonic etc. to bring 480hz to their OLED TVs

I was flirting with the idea of getting a PS5 Pro, but the draw backs of PSSR just to achieve higher frame rates and whatever else compared to checkboard 4K are giving me second thoughts. I think a Switch 2, PC(RTX 5090) & Quest 3 would be an awesome combination. Besides, i can't stand 99% of Sony's exclusives anyways, and plenty of them are heading to PC anyways.

[NeonPizza]

Probably never or not anytime soon

Sony pushing AI upscalling would shoot themselves in the foot if people could see how bad their upscalling is for motion reproduction quality.
Also, they don't want to talk about how good 480Hz displays are while also pushing 30fps games as "cinematic experience".
They also would need to talk about flaws of display compression or switch to HDMI 2.2 and I'm not sure if 2.2 will be the norm for next Xbox and PS6, if the rumors of them being pulled from 2028 to 2027 or even 2026 are true.

What's obviously good for gamers is rarely noticed by Sony's corporate ignorants. Examples:
- releasing a new console and fixing the USB connected controller's input lag only after over a year. It doesn't take a genius to realize the lower input lag can be useful for gamers who don't mind playing with a cable attached to their controller
- absolutely stupid issues with settings, blocking some useful features like BFI by default because some other less important feature is enabled and there's no option to disable it. Or ruining the others (like forcing 120Hz refresh rate for a 60fps game)
- not implementing 1:1 scaling for retro content
- not supporting driving wheels on a console which physically supports them, just because they decided they want to milk people on licensing and licensed hardware for PS4 is not good for PS5, for some reason. This shows their undertanding of what core gamers want


If they implement both CRT simulations, for both image and motion quality, then suddenly old PS2 and PS3 games will look awesome. Who will buy another re-re-re-release of PS2's Devil May Cry for PS6 in such a case?


The only hope is in people like the Chief here, John Carmack or John from Digital Foundry. People like this are the only people who can even hope to reach the corporate ignorants and convince them to do the obvious steps.

Anyway. Just get the Retrotink now or after new HDMI 2.2 version comes out (probably not before 2027, I'm afraid)

There's always the RetroTINK4K for now, if you want to cut down 50% of motion blur for 60fps titles. I'm just not overly thrilled by it's total input lag in combination with an OLED TV's game mode. Tink4K lag(2-2.5ms), + it's BFI lag and 10ms of lag coming from your OLED TV's game mode probably cranks it up to at least 20ms of latency. BFI flicker is more visable than CRT Simulation too, and it's capped at 1080p, where as CRT Simulation supports 4K.

CRT Simulation AND a Film Judder Reduction setting(Without introducing SOE) should be inherent or a part of ALL QD-OLED/OLED TV's.

Somebody mentioned to me in an OLED AVS forum that TINK4K's triple strobe BFI, used for 24/30fps content(movies & tv) also introduces occasional image artificats. Less BFI flicks though than 60hz internal OLED BFI. I'd have to see it for myself in action. the 58% motion blur reduction(for 144hz QD-OLED/OLED's) and film judder reduction(Without inorpoirating SOE)on paper, seem to good to pass up, even with the 1080p cap.

[RonsonPL]

There's always the RetroTINK4K for now, if you want to cut down 50% of motion blur for 60fps titles.

Wait, RetroTINK should be able to cut down more than 50%, or am I wrong?
I'm not able to afford and/or justify the purchase, so I'll have to stick to PC methods.

Anyway.
60% of 16ms is still awful, as it would leave 8ms of persistence.
It starts to bother me when it exceeds 3ms. I could live with 4ms in some titles with not much of fast motion, but I'd rather compromise on anything else before I consider playing with even 3/4 reduction of 60Hz blur. That's still 4ms.
I used 2-3.5ms persistence on PC games capped at 60fps on the most extremely flickery display in existence - a single strobed LCD at 60Hz.
Requires making a break after 10-15 minutes, which means like 2-3 races in arcade racing game, but it's still better than playing it with blur.
I guess if I survived that, I'll be fine with rolling scan simulation methods, as those can only be better (less eye hurting)

[NeonPizza]

There's always the RetroTINK4K for now, if you want to cut down 50% of motion blur for 60fps titles.

Wait, RetroTINK should be able to cut down more than 50%, or am I wrong?
I'm not able to afford and/or justify the purchase, so I'll have to stick to PC methods.

Anyway.
60% of 16ms is still awful, as it would leave 8ms of persistence.
It starts to bother me when it exceeds 3ms. I could live with 4ms in some titles with not much of fast motion, but I'd rather compromise on anything else before I consider playing with even 3/4 reduction of 60Hz blur. That's still 4ms.
I used 2-3.5ms persistence on PC games capped at 60fps on the most extremely flickery display in existence - a single strobed LCD at 60Hz.
Requires making a break after 10-15 minutes, which means like 2-3 races in arcade racing game, but it's still better than playing it with blur.
I guess if I survived that, I'll be fine with rolling scan simulation methods, as those can only be better (less eye hurting)

50% reduction(8.3ms persistence) with OLED motion blur on something like a 120hz LG C1 OLED(Better yet, a QD-OLED), when gaming at 60fps, makes a world of a difference, as 58% should for 24-30fps movie/tv content with TINK4K's triple strobe bfi on a 144hz OLED. The 50% reduction Still isn't good enough for anything in first person imo, but I personally don't mess with that genre on TV's anymore, ONLY in VR.

Quest 3 doesn't have ANY motion blur with it's Dual LCD displays. And PSVR2, with it's VR Brightness slider set to Zero has a 2ms persistence. VR has the best motion clarity(Compared to modern OLED TV's), best in-class motion controls(PS5 & Switch don't even have a reference/Sensor bar), Stereoscopic 3D, VR and a size adjustable mixed reality 3D/2D screen. we're hitting a wall with diminishing returns with pancake gaming. Where as VR/MR as so much room for growth. In ways, it feels like a successor to the Nintendo 3DS & Wii.

Anyways, going off topic a little. But ya, i'm pretty I was told that TINK4K is limited to a 50%(8.3ms) cut in motion blur with 60fps titles, even if you have a TV or monitor with a higher refresh rate. CRT Simulation is a different story, and goes by your TV"s refresh rate >

144hz - 58% reduction
165hz - About 64% reduction
240hz Monitor - 75%
480hz Monitor - I'm guessing 87.5%?

Also, with TINK4K it will add 2ms of latency on it's, then you have to combine the 10ms of lag coming your OLED TV's game mode at 60fps, and however much lag TINK4K's BFI introduces, along Frame Lock or something....Not entirely sure. Would love to know the exact numbers.

[RonsonPL]

I'm not at all interested in 24 and 30fps content. I simply skip the games if I can't get at least 60 (more if mouse controlled) and I watch like 1 movie per year so..
I mistakenly thought Retrotink can do better than 8ms. Thanks for the info.

off-topic: And about VR, you seem to like it a lot.
I'm a bit old and I am not and will never be able play anything well. If you are on Quest (standalone VR) platform and don't need a teammate for competetive games, who's very good and able to play on higher level edging on "pros", feel free to drop me a private message and we could play together sometime. I should be entering PC VR later this year or a bit later.
Be warned though: If I start talking in VR about motion or retro gaming, I won't shut up for hours, which is fine in Walkabout Minigolf, but maybe be bothersome in Pavlov and such

[William Sokol Erhard]

50% reduction(8.3ms persistence) with OLED motion blur on something like a 120hz LG C1 OLED(Better yet, a QD-OLED), when gaming at 60fps, makes a world of a difference, as 58% should for 24-30fps movie/tv content with TINK4K's triple strobe bfi on a 144hz OLED. The 50% reduction Still isn't good enough for anything in first person imo, but I personally don't mess with that genre on TV's anymore, ONLY in VR. ;)

Quest 3 doesn't have ANY motion blur with it's Dual LCD displays. And PSVR2, with it's VR Brightness slider set to Zero has a 2ms persistence. VR has the best motion clarity, best in-class motion controls(PS5 & Switch don't even have a reference/Sensor bar), Stereoscopic 3D, VR and a size adjustable mixed reality 3D/2D screen. we're hitting a wall with diminishing returns with pancake gaming. Where as VR/MR as so much room for growth. In ways, it feels like a successor to the Nintendo 3DS & Wii.
...

I'm not at all interested in 24 and 30fps content. I simply skip the games if I can't get at least 60 (more if mouse controlled) and I watch like 1 movie per year so.. :)
I mistakenly thought Retrotink can do better than 8ms. Thanks for the info.

off-topic: And about VR, you seem to like it a lot.
...

You both bring up some great points. Yes, the nature of a non-display controlling strobe solution is that necessarily you're forced to do black frame insertion which limits your persistence duty cycle to (content framerate / video signal rate). I will note this applies to both hardware and software solutions.

VR does have, by necessity, pretty good display controlling strobing solutions. I'm an XR developer and unfortunately, in my testing, these headsets are still very far from perfect in their strobing implementation. Because of content framerates and headset refresh rates, you are often at high risk of duplicate images/image separation on most devices.

Current VR devices are incredible for what they and they are worth using without doubt, but there are many low hanging fruits like varifocal support and higher refresh rates that are desperately needed to improve the state of affairs.


Of the non-display approaches to BFI or upscale framerate:
Hardware solutions like the retrotink will provide lower latency.
Software solutions like my Vint software provide far more flexibility and control in the implementation of black frame insertion, CRT emulation, or interpolation. Software/Vint also allows for higher quality results because PCs offer more power. I was actually surprised to see that retrotink only supports the CRT rolling scan and not the soft phosphor fade portions of the Chief's CRT simulation. Software/Vint also allows variable refresh rate (freesync/gsync) outputs for more control over BFI/content rates. Software/Vint doesn't require new hardware beyond a capture card. Software/Vint does naturally come with a latency penalty.


I think we'll be lucky if the chief can get SteamOS or hopefully Windows to support OS level BFI/CRT emulation filter support. I can't imagine consoles ever adopting it in the foreseeable future.

As far as VR goes, I am looking at bringing Vint to VR because of my expertise and interest but also because wider FOVs, better strobing, and a better controlled visual environment lend themselves to temporal upscaling solutions. In some circumstances, BFI and CRT emulation can eliminate the double projection/image duplication artifacts of frame duplication on AR and VR headsets.


RonsonPL, I have to say, playing <50% duty cycle low persistence 60FPS content is a bold approach. I was blown away by the flicker of low framerate content on a large OLED. CRT emulation helps a little but it is not a panacea.
Side note, once you get PCVR, Half-Life Alyx is everything it's cracked up to be. Google earth and PC games with VR mods (Subnautica, Alien Isolation, Outer Wilds) will blow your mind.

Personally, I'll eat the relatively tolerable artifacts of good interpolation over strobing but everyone has their own preferences and it should always be a choice. None of these mitigations hold a candle to native high framerates though.

[NeonPizza]

I'm not at all interested in 24 and 30fps content. I simply skip the games if I can't get at least 60 (more if mouse controlled) and I watch like 1 movie per year so..
I mistakenly thought Retrotink can do better than 8ms. Thanks for the info.

off-topic: And about VR, you seem to like it a lot.
I'm a bit old and I am not and will never be able play anything well. If you are on Quest (standalone VR) platform and don't need a teammate for competetive games, who's very good and able to play on higher level edging on "pros", feel free to drop me a private message and we could play together sometime. I should be entering PC VR later this year or a bit later.
Be warned though: If I start talking in VR about motion or retro gaming, I won't shut up for hours, which is fine in Walkabout Minigolf, but maybe be bothersome in Pavlov and such

Sorry, I was strictly talking 24-30fps for Movies & TV, not video games. I can't stomach 30fps when gaming in most cases. It's gotta be 60(locked), and 120fps depending on the title. 120, regardless of the 50% motion blur reduction and snappier controls(Assumingly' from the 5ms drop in input lag) are awesome and all, but that extra smooth 60fps being applied on top of 60 isn't suitable for all games.

60fps + 144hz CRT Simulation is what I'd want for Switch 2 & PS5, and my future 65" S90F QD-OLED, launching this Spring. Unfortunately, this years flagship Samsung QD-OLED, the S95F, which is boasting 165hz(64% Motion blur reduction with CRT simulation, compared to 58% with 144hz.) has a matte finish...Which supposedly softens the image, dulls colour vibrancy and mucks with the contrast. Samsung blew it. And there's no way I'm going back to WOLED colour with the LG G5, regardless of it supporting 165hz. I'd rather gain QD-Colour and drop back down to 144hz.

And ya, TINK4K, unless I'm mistaken reduces MB by 50% for all 60fps titles, regardless if you have a 144hz or 165hz display. It's locked to 50% by default, as long as your OLED supports 120hz. 50% makes a big difference, it goes from making games look nearly-unplayable in motion, to playable. Hopefully I'm wrong and that you do in fact get 58% less blur from a 144hz OLED with 60fps titles.

Here are TINK4K's input lag numbers >

* 2ms of lag - just by using TINK4K....But does turning on Frame Lock add any more?
* 10ms of lag - From your OLED/QD-OLED TV's Game mode.
* 8.3ms Lag - From TINK4K's 120hz BFI for 60fps gaming.

That's a grand total of around 20.3ms, IF Frame Lock(Which i hear is essential when using TINK4K's BFI) doesn't add more on top of it. As is, 20-21ms is a pinch too much for me personally. I want sub 16ms.

I'm assuming CRT Simulation will add 6.94ms of lag with a 144hz QD-OLED to cut down 58% of blur, but I'm guessing there won't be any additional lag just by using the Algorithm, compared to a scaler device like TINK4K. So basically, 6.94ms(144hz CRT Simulation) + 10ms of lag from QD-OLED Game mode. Total = 16.94ms, best case scenario. The higher the hz, the less lag. A '240hz' QD-OLED 32" Monitor + CRT Simulation would add 4ms of lag, on top of 10ms from the monitor's GM. so 14ms in that case.

CRT simulation lag numbers, not including the 10ms from an OLED TV or monitor.

120hz = 8.3ms lag
144hz = 6.94ms lag
165hz = ?
240hz = 4ms lag

If only 240hz QD-OLED 'TV's were officially a thing. It's going to continue to be a slow-drip with marginal hz boosts each year by the looks of things...Oh, and IF TINK4K can do a 58% motion blur reduction with 144hz QD-OLED/OLED TV's, while adding just 6.94ms of lag, or 165hz with even less lag, for 60fps games than I'd be all over it for gaming, even with the 1080p cap/limitation.