My lifelong problems about DWM/Monitors a bunch of problems and years of research !

[kizx]

Hello ever since i left CRT monitors like 15 years or so and bought my first gaming PC I became obsessed with perfection, I want to feel a 1:1 monitor feeling with my games and have the most stable frames with the best experience ever. Now I learned a bunch of stuff since then but I always had an issue that is so bizarre that most people would not even understand or believe.

Most people never felt true 240hz, 144hz or anything right and when you never experienced buttersmooth gaming you cant go around and look for answers on why your system dont feel amazing anymore because you dont know what amazing is and i kinda envy these people because for years i had issues and i found a " fix" kinda...

The problem is even if you choose your native refresh rate of your monitor in my case 240hz, Windows wont output 240 frames and so you wont feel 240hz unless you do something that Windows decided that is considered like it needs to and what end up happening is that if you dont have a clean pipeline, pagefiles and anything that could save residuals stuff when you do something like let say play a demanding game windows still wont give you correctly those frames even if your game is capable to output 240fps and that will end up very tiny micro stutters that are only noticeable if you experienced what true 240 fps is. You will feel not super bad but it wont feel amazing like it should be. And all of this is before the VRR stuff that is another layer of fragile to be perfect technology..

Now i remembered how it felt amazing the first time you plug a new monitor and switch your refresh rate from 60 to 240hz for the first time or how it feels after a fresh windows install the very first time you boot on the desktop and move the mouse and decided to investigate.

Its all about Windows explorer "DWM" ( almost ) this is the "reset" key you go in Task manager and you restart it and it feels almost perfect if not perfect for the first few minutes, now at first i was like oh maybe my DWM was just polluted and i restarted it and my problems are over but no... sadly even after removing all power saving everything i could find in my Windows. Windows still have some features that wont give you what you selected. How do i know ? well when i move my mouse and its super smooth i can tell the difference between 240hz outputting 240 frames or a fake 240hz that gives me whatever frames to output maybe 100 ish.. 1:1 feel amazing and look amazing.

Now this whole thing became to my attention because I accidently fixed it a bunch of time and then searched on why. A few things fix it not forever but fix it... and if you add all of this together you end up with something beautiful...

When I either watch my friends gameplay on a discord share, I dont know what kind of background codes there is overhere but it forces my Windows DWM to be always in sync and output the same frames than my refresh rate and my whole PC, desktop , games is butter. Same goes if i put an animated wallpaper at high enough frames , open netflix and start watching something. If i do that then im okay for a few hours before i have to do some of those things if not all of them to make my games feel amazing otherwise my games start to feel less smooth and outside of gaming you can tell the difference by how the mouse feel on your desktop i think motion blur is the right wording there. the mouse have less of it and smoother at higher frames so you can tell the difference...

Now my thoughts on all of this and why not many people realise and stuff...

1) people dont have enough time or knowledge and just want to play and never realised they dont have something perfect because they never experienced perfection in the first place. ( if someone played at 30 fps since forever he wont tell you he's lagging if he never experienced anything better ) which is why sometimes you watch people playing at ridiculous low fps and wonder how is that even possible.

2) now for the people with good or very good PC some people cant tell the difference they are like " A PURPLE DRAGON" and that's it they are happy and honestly I envy them.

3) People PC are not clean and while this is not a blessing for multiples things, for this problem it solves it... Let say someone had multiple monitors and 155 apps/ services opened. spofity, chrome, maybe even edge even if they are not using it running in the background, videos, games stuff using hardware acceleration on the gpu what end up happening is that windows cant ever be in idle state that way and end up giving the same frames than refresh rate and so they dont notice they have this issue because they probably dont or not frequent enough to notice.

4) last thing i thought is then what about the not so casual people like streamers, surely we would know more by now right ? nope some fall into the other categories OR my biggest clue is that OBS the streaming tool that most people use these days force Windows to fix this problem just like the other thing i said are doing so..

so because of all of this it took me a very long time to understand the issue and find a way to "cheat windows dwm" and fix it. but having to clean my pagefiles from time to time , restart explorer very often , open a netflix movie for a few second every now and then while gaming to ensure i have good frames is just getting to my nerves after a while. I would to know if there is a fix or its just how windows behave...

oh and also even if i have everything set perfectly sometimes my games wont feel the same.. windows DWM .... i hate it.

and there is also gsync even if you go in fullscreen exclusive and you not always can, its so fragile and sometimes will go in a weird between dwm and fullscreen exclusive state and you end up at like 150 fps when you normaly have 240 in a game. you reboot the game and restart explorer and youre good to go. For fun i tested doing this alot of times i alt tab alot in fullscreen until something bricks just to make sure it was really a thing.

another not fun part is that im mostly playing arpg and i often want overlays and realised overlays just turn gsync off 100% of the time. so there is no escape from dwm.. beside i like my desktop being smooth...

So where do I go from here ? i dont know maybe you guys know what im talking about and could tell me how to make it permanent or maybe this is just how DWM is.. BAD.

and in case people just ask for me to check if my refresh rate is correct. YES it is even the test on this website shows 240hz stable it doesnt mean that Windows gives me the frames to output it tho.

[RealNC]

The best way to "cheat" DWM is to make sure games use the correct flip model, which bypasses DWM completely. DX12 games do this by default, DX11 games can be promoted to the correct flip model by Windows 11, if you enable the windowed mode optimization option.

Making sure MPOs are active on the display will make sure DWM can be bypassed in more cases, like when overlays are active (like Discord's new overlay, which prevents the correct flip model from being used even if the overlay isn't actually visible.)

[ManWhoSoldTheWorld]

Thank you for sharing your story!

One thing you could try:

• Set up two monitors: I for instance use one 2k@360hz and one 2k@144hz (important that they output different reso or refresh rate). This setup bugs out DWM on the secondary monitor

• Make the non-gaming monitor the primary monitor

• In Nvidia Control Panel > 3D settings > Game Specific > Preferred Refresh Rate = Application controlled (important - Else Windows will launch the game with the refresh rate of the primary monitor)

• If the game supports it, you can run Fullscreen Exclusive and select the gaming monitor

• If the game does not support it, you run Borderless Fullscreen, launch the game on primary monitor and use Win+Shift+ArrowKeys to move the window over to the correct monitor

Check it out and report back. The extremely fluent 1:1 feeling you are describing, I'm only able to achieve some times by fiddling with the EDID using CRU with only one monitor connected, then setting a non-native resolution and refresh rate. If it works, it is only active until the computer is rebooted - Not able to recreate it consistently. Using the setup described above, I achieve consistent almost great monitor output

I have not been able to test true MPO as RealNC describes in the first feedback here, as my GPU + Monitor Combo does not support more than "1 MaxPlanes". I have though verified that even though the correct Flip Model is used, something is still interfering unless I run the described setup.

Sidenote:
From my testing with monitoring the different latencies in the value chain of the frame output (FrameTime & DisplayLatency), I get a fraction lower latency running FSO (Hardware: Independent Flip) vs FSO Disabled + FSE (Hardware: Legacy Flip). On a "non-optimized" system it is reversed - So testing on your specific system is important.

[kizx]

The best way to "cheat" DWM is to make sure games use the correct flip model, which bypasses DWM completely. DX12 games do this by default, DX11 games can be promoted to the correct flip model by Windows 11, if you enable the windowed mode optimization option.

Making sure MPOs are active on the display will make sure DWM can be bypassed in more cases, like when overlays are active (like Discord's new overlay, which prevents the correct flip model from being used even if the overlay isn't actually visible.)

When i installed my driver with DDU/ Nvcleanistall very clean driver One of the tutorial I always follow was to not install MPO with my GPU driver so if that is the same thing i dont have it so i cant make sure its active and would not know how. I disabled ( i think ) all discord overlays because it turned off my gsync completely in fact no overlays is ever working with gsync sadly.

im playing league of legends which is DX12, Path of exile 1 & 2 both in Vulkan with dxgi swap chain in nvdia panel to make my gsync work. last epoch which is DX12 i think ?

Bypasses or not if i alt tab or just after a while things get messy and doesnt feel right because what is happening behind the scene must get dirty after a while. The "issue (features if its just how windows is) " is not just when im playing a game, its in general like even if i just turned on my pc my desktop wont have this "wow 240hz" feeling until i reset file explorer and play a movie on netflix for couple seconds or something, animated wallpaper can also do the trick, discord screenshare anything to make windows say " okay i can output 240 fps on 240hz" instead of whatever frames its outputting at 240hz. I can legit with my eyes see the difference of how smooth the mouse moving on my desktop ( the animation ) is compared to before im doing that.

I swear the first time i felt the real 240hz for the first time i was dizzy in-game after a while because things moved too fast for me lol.

Thank you for sharing your story!

One thing you could try:

• Set up two monitors: I for instance use one 2k@360hz and one 2k@144hz (important that they output different reso or refresh rate). This setup bugs out DWM on the secondary monitor

• Make the non-gaming monitor the primary monitor

• In Nvidia Control Panel > 3D settings > Game Specific > Preferred Refresh Rate = Application controlled (important - Else Windows will launch the game with the refresh rate of the primary monitor)

• If the game supports it, you can run Fullscreen Exclusive and select the gaming monitor

• If the game does not support it, you run Borderless Fullscreen, launch the game on primary monitor and use Win+Shift+ArrowKeys to move the window over to the correct monitor

Check it out and report back. The extremely fluent 1:1 feeling you are describing, I'm only able to achieve some times by fiddling with the EDID using CRU with only one monitor connected, then setting a non-native resolution and refresh rate. If it works, it is only active until the computer is rebooted - Not able to recreate it consistently. Using the setup described above, I achieve consistent almost great monitor output

I have not been able to test true MPO as RealNC describes in the first feedback here, as my GPU + Monitor Combo does not support more than "1 MaxPlanes". I have though verified that even though the correct Flip Model is used, something is still interfering unless I run the described setup.

Sidenote:
From my testing with monitoring the different latencies in the value chain of the frame output (FrameTime & DisplayLatency), I get a fraction lower latency running FSO (Hardware: Independent Flip) vs FSO Disabled + FSE (Hardware: Legacy Flip). On a "non-optimized" system it is reversed - So testing on your specific system is important.

im only using 1 monitor at the moment but if i understand what youre saying , youre trying to trick windows in not giving your secondary monitor DWM ?

Also my nvidia settings for my of my games are preferred refresh rate = highest available but maybe i should try Application control to see if it feels better or not.

I really like bordeless more than fullscreen because everytime i alt tab after a while gsync is just offtrack until i close the game and restart things. i alt tab often.

the last thing you said i did not test latency and stuff with fullscreen optimization on vs if i disabled it in the settings of my games i mostly dont touch that setting the only place i changed it and disabled it was league of legends because its known to be better that way.

[RealNC]

When i installed my driver with DDU/ Nvcleanistall very clean driver One of the tutorial I always follow was to not install MPO with my GPU driver so if that is the same thing i dont have it so i cant make sure its active and would not know how. I disabled ( i think ) all discord overlays because it turned off my gsync completely in fact no overlays is ever working with gsync sadly.

MPOs are required for overlays to work with g-sync, because independent flip presentation (which bypasses DWM) is required for g-sync.

I use SpecialK to verify if MPOs are active, and which flip model games use, and whether game mode is actually engaged:

Screenshot (278).jpg (757.86 KiB) Viewed 5620 times

Obviously this won't work in online games that have anti-cheat.

[kizx]

When i installed my driver with DDU/ Nvcleanistall very clean driver One of the tutorial I always follow was to not install MPO with my GPU driver so if that is the same thing i dont have it so i cant make sure its active and would not know how. I disabled ( i think ) all discord overlays because it turned off my gsync completely in fact no overlays is ever working with gsync sadly.

MPOs are required for overlays to work with g-sync, because independent flip presentation (which bypasses DWM) is required for g-sync.

I use SpecialK to verify if MPOs are active, and which flip model games use, and whether game mode is actually engaged:


Screenshot (278).jpg


Obviously this won't work in online games that have anti-cheat.

I will check if my games allow me to use that app and see, i went and read that apparently even if you disable mpo when you install driver now days it doesnt remove it and i went in dxdiag and it says mpo (4) so i should have it unless the " removal " is actually somehow blocking it because any overlays that is not locked with the game and goes like above it but i still can click on my game will disable g sync so maybe its not working correctly ? otherwise with no overlays g-sync is working i see the indicator in green and during my loading screen at 30 fps the mouse motion blur is very bad because of g sync and once the game is loaded at 240 fps then the mouse is smooth again so this indicate me that atleast gsync is working.

Also all of this doesnt explain why if i restart file explorer and put on something like a video , netflix whatever for couple seconds that it makes my desktop "flip " or actually output 240 frames at 240hz instead of whatever frames it gives me. I can tell it does this because of the mouse. Now if its just how windows is and there is nothing i can do then bummer but otherwise this is just weird. Atleast i found a way to fix it temporary.

[kizx]

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When i installed my driver with DDU/ Nvcleanistall very clean driver One of the tutorial I always follow was to not install MPO with my GPU driver so if that is the same thing i dont have it so i cant make sure its active and would not know how. I disabled ( i think ) all discord overlays because it turned off my gsync completely in fact no overlays is ever working with gsync sadly.

MPOs are required for overlays to work with g-sync, because independent flip presentation (which bypasses DWM) is required for g-sync.

I use SpecialK to verify if MPOs are active, and which flip model games use, and whether game mode is actually engaged:


Screenshot (278).jpg


Obviously this won't work in online games that have anti-cheat.

This tool is making me discover so many things, i only play multiplayer games tho and i dont want to get banned so i stay in the lobby atleast to check and it says im on independant flip i noticed something weird tho it says resize bar off but its on in my bios and also it says YES in nvidia control panel

also about MPO it says (4) in green just like you but also in the settings of special k it says disabled in registery lol which one is it.

[RealNC]

also about MPO it says (4) in green just like you but also in the settings of special k it says disabled in registery lol which one is it.

It means MPOs are supported but are forcefully disabled in the registry.

"Hardware: Independent flip" means DWM is bypassed. However, if an overlay were to show up, then it would revert to "Composed flip", which goes through DWM.

If you allow MPOs to be used, then the flip model would switch to "Hardware composed: Independent flip", which also bypasses DWM but keeps working even if an overlay was to show up. If you make sure to never have some weird overlay active, then you don't need MPOs. But I don't see what the benefit of disabling MPOs is though. Maybe years ago they were buggy, but nowadays they should be working just fine.

As for Rebar, it means that it's supported, but not enabled for this game in particular. Nvidia enables this only for certain games. It's disabled by default. You enable it though for any game with nvidia profile inspector, or with SpecialK (by right-clicking on "resizable bar" and checking the "enable" box, then restart the game.) Right-clicking is used quite a lot in SK for some options. Note that ReBar is DX12 specific. DX11 and older do not know what that even is and thus can't use it even if you enable it.

[JimCarry]

[Hyote]

The least intrusive DWM disable script can be found on my GitHub. Despite DWM off being better technically, it doesn't influence the feel of games beucause it is being bypassed anyway if it's set up correctly. There are many things wrong with Windows, especially services that pop up if you don't disable them entirely but DWM never caused me any extra lag.