Help for a Musician & Producer

[AshX]

Hi guys,

Apologies in advance for this very long post.

I’ve been browsing this forum for quite a while and am quite thankful for all your expertise and willingness to help those of us with unique problems.

I am a professional musician, producer, and audio engineer. Unfortunately, a July 2022 COVID infection drastically affected my health leaving me with long COVID, POTS, and some autoimmune and neurological issues. I have a fairly moderate sensitivity to light and apparently, a strong sensitivity to flicker after a reinfection in the summer of 2024.

One of the stranger and initial symptoms of my post-infection health is that my left eye will shut when exposed to flicker and certain types of light. It comes and goes relating to the intensity of light, but it’s an observable example I can point to when I look at problem devices. I’ve spent a lot of time going to ophthalmologists and neurologists and like everything related to long COVID, they really have no clue. I have 20/20 vision with a slight astigmatism in one eye not even worth treating.

My journey has been strange and difficult. Prior to COVID I didn’t have a problem with devices of any kind. I actually owned several M1 MacBook Pros both prior to and for a while after getting sick, the latest being the MacBook Pro 14” M1 Pro, which I sold 6 months post-infection to pay for medical bills. I purchased it prior being sick and remembered being shocked at it being one of the most comfortable Macs I’d ever owned.

I’ve used Apple computers for the the entirety of my 10+ year career. I’ve exclusively used the 21.5” iMac for hundreds of hours of audio production, mixing, and mastering as well as MacBook Pros with no problems. My most recent studio computer was a 2019 iMac 4K Retina 21.5” that I used from October 2019 to June 2024. It spent most of its lifespan on MacOS Mojave for plug-in compatibility reasons.

I first noticed I had a problem when I tried to upgrade my iPhone 13 to an iPhone 15 Pro in May 2023. I unboxed the phone and started having this weird experience where my eyes couldn’t focus on the screen - it felt like something was moving yet not at the same time. I was confused because I’d never had this experience with any device before. Thus I discovered the PWM rabbit hole. I learned about temporal dithering, spatial dithering, refresh rates, and so on. I returned the phone and decided to stick with my iPhone 13.

(As an aside, I also had an iPad Pro 12.9” 6th Gen MiniLED with PWM that was fine until a software update around this time).

Interestingly, I had just moved into a condo we would later discover had toxic black mold. I started noticing issues with my trusty iMac. It didn’t have PWM as best I could tell, but it was getting difficult to use as my left eye would shut while using it. I thought maybe it was utilizing dithering on Mojave, so I downloaded SwitchResX and selected the “millions of colors” option. Amazingly, I could open my eye much more comfortably. I toggled the switch on and off, looking away from the screen as I did it as a sort of placebo test. Without fail I could tell when the computer was running on “billions of colors” (8-bit+FRC) or millions. This allowed me to work again and finish a new record.

To make an already long story short, a lot of things happened in my life. I spent 5 figures moving out of that condo, put my stuff in storage, and spent 8 months homeless living in my car and in hotels. I got reinfected with COVID and most recently an influenza infection this past January and my health deteriorated to the point I now walk with a cane. Luckily I was able to finally move into a new apartment a few months ago. Unfortunately, I seem to have developed an even worse screen sensitivity.

Because of my living situation I did not look at a computer or a television for the entirety of those 8 months. The only device I had with me was my iPhone 13 on iOS 15.

Upon unpacking my iMac 2019 - which had remained carefully stored in its original box in a climate controlled storage unit the same way I left it in June 2019 - I turned it on and immediately got dizzy and had a stabbing pain in my left eye. I tried for weeks to figure out what was going on but nothing helped - SwitchResX, Safe Mode, a fresh install of Mojave. I ended up selling it.

One of the things I discovered in my trouble shooting and asking around was what many have dubbed the “gray color flicker.” It was first discovered by folks over at another forum on the MacBook Air M2’s. I recorded a video of my iMac flickering at 240 fps slow motion while I still had it (please let me know an acceptable way to link to it).

I also borrowed a family member’s 2015 MacBook Pro 15” that also gave me similar symptoms, though not as intense. It also has the flicker.

I spent time going to different stores and last month saved up enough for a MacBook Air M4 13”. The symptoms were even more extreme. Just during setup it felt like my eye muscles were sunburnt and I hadn’t slept in a week. I installed Stillcolor and BetterDisplay to disable GPU dithering, which took the edge off, but it was very difficult to look at the device. I also disabled Font Smoothing, Auto Brightness, Location Services, Reduce Motion and Transparency. The works. Nothing helped. It, too, had this flicker.

I thought maybe I got a bad unit. So I exchanged it for a MacBook Air M4 15”. During setup, before I could even install Stillcolor, I had the worst experience I’ve ever had on a device. All the same symptoms as the MBA M4 13” but in addition I started sweating, had heart palpitations, and tingling nerve pain on the side of my face along with confusion and myoclonic spasms. I spoke with my neurologist and he said it was likely a focal aware seizure. I returned the device.

I’ve had other folks test different devices - Intel and Apple Silicon Macs and iPads. Many of the devices using LCD’s by Apple have this gray color flicker - but not all.

We have theories as to what it is. I’m curious to hear what you all think. My best guess is it’s temporal dithering in the form of FRC as all these devices have 8-bit+FRC screens that are trying to render P3 “billions of colors.” Or perhaps some strange power saving flicker related to the GPU.

Ultimately, though, I’m in desperate need for a usable computing setup. I don’t know if I’m barking up the wrong tree with this gray color flicker, but it’s the only commonality I’ve been able to find considering most of these are PWM-free IPS LCD devices. And the fact that I can use an iPhone 13 which has PWM makes me think it has to be a flicker with either a low frequency or a really bad modulation depth.

Right now I’m considering the following devices based on recommendations:

-MacBook Pro 13” M2 with Touchbar (I have video proof this specific model doesn’t have the gray color flicker)
-Mac Mini M1 (I can get a sealed one and figured maybe Big Sur or Monterey would be more comfortable since many have complained about Sonoma and Sequoia being uncomfortable)
-Intel Mac Mini 2018 (maybe less dithering?)
-MacBook Pro 14” M1 Pro (I had this before and was fine…but my iMac was also fine)
-iMac 24” M1 (some users said this particular iMac was okay. I did not find the M4’s in-store comfortable)

I’m of course open to PC as a worse case scenario. I have 10 years of music sessions and hard drives formatted for MacOS, so it would be a challenge to move everything. Luckily I do not use Apple programs for music creation. The only programs I need to use are Pro Tools, Ableton Live, Premiere Pro, and Photoshop.

In terms of monitors, I was trying to to the true 8-bit route. If dither is the issue, I thought maybe a Mac Mini running Stillcolor + an 8-bit monitor (maybe the Dell S2722DC?) might give me a shot at minimizing dithering. I also am considering the old 27” Thunderbolt Display from the early 2010s. But I am worried about text clarity and scaling with all these options, plus I’ve not used a monitor larger than the 21.5” iMac and light sensitivity concerns me.

I did take the 13” MBA M4 to MicroCenter prior to returning it and the gentleman there was kind enough to let me plug it in to different monitors. We tried the Apple Studio Display, a few random Dell Monitors, and 2 OLED’s. The OLED’s were quite brutal, but part of that was I believe one was on an HDR setting at first. I nearly passed out looking at it.

A huge thank you to any of you who have read all this. I know it is quite a lot, but after reading some of the threads here, I thought being detailed may be helpful.

-Ash

[1000WATT]

One of the stranger and initial symptoms of my post-infection health is that my left eye will shut when exposed to flicker and certain types of light. It comes and goes relating to the intensity of light, but it’s an observable example I can point to when I look at problem devices. I’ve spent a lot of time going to ophthalmologists and neurologists and like everything related to long COVID, they really have no clue. I have 20/20 vision with a slight astigmatism in one eye not even worth treating.


All the same symptoms as the MBA M4 13” but in addition I started sweating, had heart palpitations, and tingling nerve pain on the side of my face along with confusion and myoclonic spasms. I spoke with my neurologist and he said it was likely a focal aware seizure. I returned the device.

That's all? the neurologist just said "probably" and didn't refer you to epileptologists?

I also am considering the old 27” Thunderbolt Display from the early 2010s. But I am worried about text clarity and scaling with all these options, plus I’ve not used a monitor larger than the 21.5” iMac and light sensitivity concerns me.

What worries you more? Text clarity and scaling with all these options.
Or
An epileptic seizure? In which there is a high probability of biting off your tongue and choking on blood? Or hitting your temple on the nightstand when falling.

You are already having convulsions. And this is not the forum that will help you. Apparently, you do not realize the seriousness of what is happening.
Organic brain damage as a result of a viral attack.
Epileptologists and magnetic resonance imaging will clearly show brain damage. If you are lucky, drugs that prevent spasms will solve some of the problems, if you are unlucky, you will have to take drugs with a different effect.

[AshX]

Unfortunately, this is very common for folks with long COVID. I’ve seen 3 different neurologists over 2 years. They first thought the eye closing was an “eye twitch” and tested for myasthenia gravis which was negative. The neurologist I saw in January did an EMG for the myoclonic spasms which came back normal. This was before the recent MacBook Air episode. I’m stuck with doctor’s who take Medicaid which is a very limited network and I waited 6 months for that neurologist appointment as it was, which ended up being a waste of time. I’m waiting for a rheumatologist appointment which I’m traveling to another state for and paying out of pocket with money I don’t have, which is in August.

I appreciate your concern and believe me, I’m concerned as well. But the amount of doctors those of us go to who developed health problems post-COVID infection who run tests that come back normal and throw up their hands is incredibly high. I have gone to the ER several times the past year unable to walk or speak and they run tests and I either get “why did you even come here? Go see a specialist” or if I’m lucky “We know you are sick but I’m sorry, we can’t do anything.” I’ve been to 2 rheumatologists with positive auto-antibodies and they still refuse to diagnose because it’s “not bad enough.” This is the reality of the medical system in America for those of us with no money: it’s hard to find competent doctors that take insurance if you have complex medical issues.

I share these personal details only to explain that yes, I am taking this seriously. COVID has put my entire career on hold (canceled tours, festival performances) but many of us have normal MRI’s and EEG’s or borderline EEG’s.

I need to be able to work somewhat, hence my post. I can use an iPhone 13 on iOS 15 all day and night with 0 symptoms whatsoever. I can use the touchscreen in my car. It seems to me, since others have experienced similar symptoms with the new Macs, that these devices are flickering within the danger range for epileptics and those sensitive. I can’t say for sure whether I am the former, but I certainly am the latter.

I assure you I am doing my best to pursue the underlying health issues I have, but I also understand that even if you do have treated epilepsy, a flicker under 100Hz can still cause seizures. My hope in posting this here was to attempt to understand what this particular flicker was so I can avoid it and possibly find a safe device to work on now and in the future. This forum doesn’t let me post links, so I’m not sure how to share that.

[rx7]

Did you take the vaccine because those are common injuries from the covid shot which I personally know quite a few people that have had similar health effects arise like what you mentioned after taking them. You should do a spike protein detox because spike is found around the brain for years, vax instructs your body to create that toxic protein which creates havoc. Anyways..hope things get better for you, you should look into eink screens or rlcd. They are much better on the eyes. Eink is very similar to looking at paper but if your plugging it into apple silicon macs it will most likely not feel good. I find them best connected to intel graphic pcs.

[AshX]

Did you take the vaccine because those are common injuries from the covid shot which I personally know quite a few people that have had similar health effects arise like what you mentioned after taking them. You should do a spike protein detox because spike is found around the brain for years, vax instructs your body to create that toxic protein which creates havoc. Anyways..hope things get better for you, you should look into eink screens or rlcd. They are much better on the eyes. Eink is very similar to looking at paper but if your plugging it into apple silicon macs it will most likely not feel good. I find them best connected to intel graphic pcs.

No, I actually did not take the COVID vaccine. I was injured when I was a teenager by the Gardasil vaccine so my doctor recommended against the COVID vaccine as I’ve reacted to subsequent ones since that incident as a teen, which gave me POTS, dysautonomia, hyperacusis, and visual snow.

I have been to many doctors and actually had the Spike Protein panel done by the doctor who helped Dave Navarro of Jane’s Addiction. It showed I had no spike in the blood, but my T-Cells are virtually nonexistent. I’m trying to address everything, but any doctor who knows anything doesn’t take insurance…that spike test alone was $1000.

Regarding E-Ink, unfortunately I don’t think it would play well with Pro Tools. The fact that I can use an iPhone 13 which is OLED makes me inclined to believe it’s not an extreme screen sensitivity but rather a sensitivity to lower frequency flicker.

Is there a way to gain permissions to post links? I have recorded the aforementioned “gray color flicker” which I believe is the main trigger for me on Macs.

[rx7]

Did you take the vaccine because those are common injuries from the covid shot which I personally know quite a few people that have had similar health effects arise like what you mentioned after taking them. You should do a spike protein detox because spike is found around the brain for years, vax instructs your body to create that toxic protein which creates havoc. Anyways..hope things get better for you, you should look into eink screens or rlcd. They are much better on the eyes. Eink is very similar to looking at paper but if your plugging it into apple silicon macs it will most likely not feel good. I find them best connected to intel graphic pcs.

No, I actually did not take the COVID vaccine. I was injured when I was a teenager by the Gardasil vaccine so my doctor recommended against the COVID vaccine as I’ve reacted to subsequent ones since that incident as a teen, which gave me POTS, dysautonomia, hyperacusis, and visual snow.

I have been to many doctors and actually had the Spike Protein panel done by the doctor who helped Dave Navarro of Jane’s Addiction. It showed I had no spike in the blood, but my T-Cells are virtually nonexistent. I’m trying to address everything, but any doctor who knows anything doesn’t take insurance…that spike test alone was $1000.

Regarding E-Ink, unfortunately I don’t think it would play well with Pro Tools. The fact that I can use an iPhone 13 which is OLED makes me inclined to believe it’s not an extreme screen sensitivity but rather a sensitivity to lower frequency flicker.

Is there a way to gain permissions to post links? I have recorded the aforementioned “gray color flicker” which I believe is the main trigger for me on Macs.

I'm sorry to hear that! I have noticed that too with doctors unfortunately. Have you read/listened to anything from dr jack kruse? He talks about how to reverse things like that.

I think there was actually someone who uses a dasung 253 color eink with protools. He lights it up with a halogen lamp but I hear ya though if your not a fan of eink speeds. Well I dont think OLED iphones use temporal dithering but I know their lcds do.. I cant take lcd apple devices they absolutely fry me. I actually seen that reddit post of the gray flicker. That would be temporal dithering/FRC so if thats what bothers you then im sure thats at least part of the issue then. Stillcolor app doesnt fully turn off dithering as someone i know tested with a microscope. Oddly I know people who have a m1 mac that bothers them instantly while the m4 macbook (blue color) was night and day better. Seems the blue m4 macs use a more comfortable panel. My friend found the different colors use different panels when he used terminal to check. I think dither/frc and transistor leakage could definitely be at play. leakage thing I think may be QC related? PWM too. They do sell a OLED replacement screen for iphones that are dc dimmed btw.

You were mentioning a 2018 mac mini - They use a intel gpu which by default windows intel drivers ONLY dither if your monitor is 6+2 FRC or 8+2 FRC. If you have a true 8bit monitor its usually safe. I would assume this also applies to the driver with mac but unsure if mac os has its own dithering. I think intel chip would be the safer route to go since apple loves forcing 10bit color depth with how they process their display output on apple silicon. I mean intel macs can run windows too as a dual boot with bootcamp so if macos felt bad you could always try windows + ditherig.exe(disables dithering)

[AshX]

Did you take the vaccine because those are common injuries from the covid shot which I personally know quite a few people that have had similar health effects arise like what you mentioned after taking them. You should do a spike protein detox because spike is found around the brain for years, vax instructs your body to create that toxic protein which creates havoc. Anyways..hope things get better for you, you should look into eink screens or rlcd. They are much better on the eyes. Eink is very similar to looking at paper but if your plugging it into apple silicon macs it will most likely not feel good. I find them best connected to intel graphic pcs.

No, I actually did not take the COVID vaccine. I was injured when I was a teenager by the Gardasil vaccine so my doctor recommended against the COVID vaccine as I’ve reacted to subsequent ones since that incident as a teen, which gave me POTS, dysautonomia, hyperacusis, and visual snow.

I have been to many doctors and actually had the Spike Protein panel done by the doctor who helped Dave Navarro of Jane’s Addiction. It showed I had no spike in the blood, but my T-Cells are virtually nonexistent. I’m trying to address everything, but any doctor who knows anything doesn’t take insurance…that spike test alone was $1000.

Regarding E-Ink, unfortunately I don’t think it would play well with Pro Tools. The fact that I can use an iPhone 13 which is OLED makes me inclined to believe it’s not an extreme screen sensitivity but rather a sensitivity to lower frequency flicker.

Is there a way to gain permissions to post links? I have recorded the aforementioned “gray color flicker” which I believe is the main trigger for me on Macs.

I'm sorry to hear that! I have noticed that too with doctors unfortunately. Have you read/listened to anything from dr jack kruse? He talks about how to reverse things like that.

I think there was actually someone who uses a dasung 253 color eink with protools. He lights it up with a halogen lamp but I hear ya though if your not a fan of eink speeds. Well I dont think OLED iphones use temporal dithering but I know their lcds do.. I cant take lcd apple devices they absolutely fry me. I actually seen that reddit post of the gray flicker. That would be temporal dithering/FRC so if thats what bothers you then im sure thats at least part of the issue then. Stillcolor app doesnt fully turn off dithering as someone i know tested with a microscope. Oddly I know people who have a m1 mac that bothers them instantly while the m4 macbook (blue color) was night and day better. Seems the blue m4 macs use a more comfortable panel. My friend found the different colors use different panels when he used terminal to check. I think dither/frc and transistor leakage could definitely be at play. leakage thing I think may be QC related? PWM too. They do sell a OLED replacement screen for iphones that are dc dimmed btw.

You were mentioning a 2018 mac mini - They use a intel gpu which by default windows intel drivers ONLY dither if your monitor is 6+2 FRC or 8+2 FRC. If you have a true 8bit monitor its usually safe. I would assume this also applies to the driver with mac but unsure if mac os has its own dithering. I think intel chip would be the safer route to go since apple loves forcing 10bit color depth with how they process their display output on apple silicon. I mean intel macs can run windows too as a dual boot with bootcamp so if macos felt bad you could always try windows + ditherig.exe(disables dithering)

I have seen a few interviews with Dr. Kruse. I’ve also consulted with a few specialists, but I’ve been trying to really get the full picture rather than start throwing some pharmaceutical interventions at these conditions…I liken it to taking a shot in the dark and I’m not so inclined at being a guinea pig, especially when one intervention can negatively affect another condition. It’s a difficult needle to thread.

I did see a video on YouTube of someone running Logic using an E-Ink screen. I think what put me off is the refresh rate seems quite choppy and I do wonder if that could pose a challenge. I know when I’ve tried to correct a very, very mild astigmatism at an eye exam, my brain sort of “freaks out” because it’s used to compensating. It’s something I’d have to try, worse case. I’m glad that E-Ink and rLCD are at least options.

That’s very interesting that you also believe the gray flicker on Macs to be FRC. That was the conclusion I have been coming to as more and more people have investigated different devices - from Intel Macs to iPads - and discovered it. Makes sense why Stillcolor and SwitchResX cannot disable it because it’s probably occurring independent of the GPU (perhaps the TCON?) on the display itself.

This particular flicker has been of interest to me because it is the only commonality I have found across very uncomfortable Macs. The fact that it is visible on 240 and 120 fps slow motion makes me think it must be sub-100Hz in frequency, and with a large modulation depth depending on the device. My theory is this is likely because that frequency range is dangerous for epileptics, so it may be why those of us with brain and nervous system issues are also affected.

It’s so funny you mention the M4 Sky Blue MacBook Air because I posted on Reddit and other forums swearing it had a different panel from the other colors. The comfortable ones had the tag “G2A” when you got the display code using Terminal. I ordered a 13” M4 Sky Blue (different screen) but it was horrible. In retrospect it just seemed like the Sky Blue was the least awful out of the devices on display, and testing in-store never seems to be as bad as when I get the device home in less aggressive lighting.

Regarding OLED…I’m honestly perplexed why the iPhone 13 is fine. I very clearly got lucky with the screen manufacturer and it definitely has a higher and more stable PWM frequency and depth compared to the newer OLED iPhones. But as I said this gives me hope that I’m not completely screen intolerant - just flicker intolerant at certain frequencies and modulations. The challenge is empirically determining this and then testing devices within those parameters.

As far as the Intel Mac Mini 2018 goes, I suppose it would depend on what version of MacOS it is set to. My experience with the 2019 iMac that I had on Mojave has spooked me a bit. But SwitchResX very clearly disabled a significant amount of GPU dithering on that device. Sadly it had no effect on the 2015 15” MBP that already was at millions of colors by default and also has the gray flicker. The Windows dual boot is a good idea, though.

The device at the top of my list was the 13” MacBook Pro M2 Touchbar. Other users have found success with it and I’ve had two confirm for me with slow motion video it does not have the grey flicker. I would like to run it on MacOS Monterey (the earliest version Stillcolor will run on) because I do think later versions or MacOS (Sonoma and Sequoia) added more aggressive dithering algorithms. The M1 version is also a contender but much harder to find on older OS’s.

My other idea was to get a sealed Mac Mini M1 and see if MacOS Big Sur is tolerable. I was on Mojave for 6 years so I’m not too precious about being on the latest OS. My gut feeling is that older devices will use more GPU dithering to compensate while trying to display the colors and processing on newer versions of MacOS. At least that’s my theory.

Pairing a monitor with the Mac Mini is also an issue because of MacOS scaling. Open to suggestions on that front. I read some of Chief Blur Busters posts about going left field and thought maybe getting a used Apple Thunderbolt Display could work. I believe those are true 8-bit. Lack of text clarity has always been a trigger for me even before I became sensitive to flickering, so that’s probably the biggest roadblock.

And finally I wish I had the cash for a Pro Display XDR…very curious if that is true 10-bit. PC would be the last ditch option but every device I’ve ever looked at on display has been somehow worse than Macs, if that’s possible. And I’m clueless as to Windows. But desperate times…

I am somewhat concerned as I’ve not used anything other than an OLED iPhone whether there will be a big issue looking at any sort of large screen that will require acclimation. I don’t think that will be the case, but I suppose that will only be known by trying. I’m just trying to take a structured approach to this since unfortunately I’m not wealthy enough to spend thousands on a ton of computers and peripherals to test all at once. This has been dragging on for months as a result, hence wanting to consult with experts like yourselves on this forum.

[AshX]

Hi again, everyone!

Well, after some penny pinching and patience, I finally got my hands on a brand new, sealed 2022 13” MacBook Pro Touchbar with 24 GB RAM/1 TB SSD. It came shipped on MacOS Ventura 13.2.1. I’m on my third day slowly using the device and while it’s the most usable laptop I’ve tried in-store and at-home to date, I’m hoping to get some feedback from all of you (and perhaps the Chief Blur Buster himself) as to where I go from here.

Of course we are dealing with a heat wave right now in the Northeast, so I write this tentatively as it definitely affecting my dusauronomia and POTS.

Day 1 (Saturday): Unboxed the laptop. Absolutely none of the seizure-like symptoms I got when booting up the MacBook Airs I tried in April. The only thing I noticed was my heart rate increased, which I chalked up to nerves after my previous bad experience. Left eye did not shut and I was able to mess around for 30 minutes. Installed Stillcolor to disable dithering but didn’t notice a massive difference. Some difficulty reading text. Didn’t want to push my luck so after tinkering with some settings put the device away.

Day 2 (Sunday): Turned on the device felt like my nervous system was a bit geared up. Again, chalked it up to nerves. Noticed Stillcolor actually made a big difference in text readability and the ability of my eyes to focus. Tried BetterDisplay, too, but on default it made the screen feel chaotic. Uninstalled it.

Installed Font Smoother app to disable font smoothing. It makes a difference in text readability. Was able to make a post on a website for the first time in a year. Nervous system still felt geared up. Did some settings tweaks: Reduce Motion enabled, True Tone enabled. Switched between Color LCD profile and sRGB profile.

One positive this is I don’t seem to lose the ability to focus on things when looking away from the screen. Don’t feel as spaced out and can jump between my iPhone 13 and the MBP fairly easily. Put the device away.

Noticed for the rest of the day a pressure in the middle of my forehead. It increases when I try to focus on thing in the distance particularly. By the evening very sensitive to light, left eye is closing when exposed to light. A bit concerned.

Day 3 (today): I didn’t intend to use the computer again because of the signs of Eyestrain yesterday evening. Family member asked me to check something so I decided to turn on the computer. Immediately as the login screen pops on my heart rate shoots up. Stillcolor is not enabled so I launch it and the heart rate goes down. Okay, so I wasn’t imagining it. Dithering is triggering tachycardia. Weird.

Context: it was 100 today so it’s possible this was contributing. But my heart rate was stable before turning on the device in doors.

Sat looking down at the device and lowered brightness below 50% to trigger the PWM - immediate pain and pressure in the left ear. Shut it down. Looked at device for less than 3 minutes. And I’m still dealing with light sensitivity and pressure in the forehead.

Notebookcheck had this to say about the 2022 13” MBP;

The brightness is rated at 500 nits and our test unit
reaches up to 514 nits (497 nits on average) in
combination with a decent black value of 0.31.
which results in a very high contrast ratio of more
than 1600:1. We can determine a flickering when
the panel brightness drops to 56% and below, but
it is not typical PWM flickering. The frequency of
117 kHz is extremely high and should not cause
any problems. The response times are decent for
an IPS screen and we did not notice any ghosting.
The display of the new MacBook Air M2 will also
support the wider P3 reference and the other
specs are also identical expect for the slightly
different form factor (due to the additional vertical
space). Compared to the larger MacBook Pro
models with the Mini-LED panels, the smaller MBP
13 does not support the higher refresh rates up to
120 Hz or the HDR capabilities.

This Pro model caught my attention because it does not have the “gray color flicker” when recorded at 240 fps slow motion. I confirmed this on 2 other units owned by screen sensitive folks and confirmed it on my unit as well. I do believe that specific type of flickering was the cause of many of my symptoms on my iMac 2019, 2015 15” MBP, and the new MacBook Airs.

This is the furthest I’ve gotten with any device I’ve tried to date. I’m honestly not sure that it’s even possible to find a better modern computer. But I’m getting a bit concerned that my underlying health issues may make any kind of computer very challenging to use. I can’t be sure that some form of dithering isn’t occurring on this laptop even with Stillcolor enabled, without doing a capture card test and a microscope test.

I am still perplexed why I can use my iPhone 13 and a family member’s iPhone 13 with no problems. In theory it should be possible to find a laptop that is equally comfortable.

Where do I go from here? Is this something you can slowly get used to? Maybe this is the result of looking at no screens larger than an iPhone for an entire year? Maybe that amount of light is just sensory overload for my nervous system? I have looked at iPads, car touch screens, and other devices - but only for a few seconds at a time.

Does any of my experience the last few days offer anything to go on? The only other possible issues I can think of are:

• -Polarizarion
  -KSF phosphor
  -PWM, dithering, or additional noise is still present

Thanks again to those of you who have taken the time to read my wall of text! Dysautonomia is a mysterious beast, as is long COVID…I’m hoping there is some way to make this workable.

[Chief Blur Buster]

Hey hey,
You sent me a PM, and so I'll post a little TLC response here. Remind me by PM if I don't respond.

-Polarizarion
-KSF phosphor
-PWM, dithering, or additional noise is still present

Self-diagnosis is usually inaccurate but from what you described -- PWM is definitely one of the very likely culprits for your eye issues. Try testing one of the NON-PRO MacBooks too, if you don't want an external display; since they generally are PWM-free. MiniLED=PWM (much, much more than OLED).

___

Unfortunately you have to start somewhere. I almost guarantee you will need to test at least 3 or 4 screens (possibly more) before you are satisfied.

So, due to that -- What is your budget? (This helps selects left field products to try) Are you able to travel? (to demo screens at a store like Best Buy). Are you able to borrow screens? (This helps broaden the net). Are you willing to do Amazon returns? (This will allow refunds that you can use to purchase the next screen if there is a problem).

There are extreme left field options available
- Your favourite television (you can connect a computer to a TV)
- One older CCFL LCD
- One desktop OLED (avoids PWM that some mobile OLEDs are afflicted by)
- One non-MiniLED LCD (MiniLED is great, but they have PWM which can affect eyestrain)
- One extreme Hz display (just in case you have a motion blur trigger)
- One e-ink displays (there are now desktop e-ink displays)
- Test out glossy too

Don't make the common newbie mistake of going fruitlessly from "common LED/LCD to common LED/LCD" (the garden variety 120-500Hz IPS/TN LCDs, though you could try ONE of them too -- just to see if extreme Hz helps); just jump dramatically the above, one by one, try each.

Make sure to purchase a HDMI cable and a USB-to-DisplayPort cable for your MacBook, so you can test your TV and other displays. Alternatively you can use AirPlay instead, and try that too (though compression artifacts can bother some people)

Random scrap displays (e.g. free hand-me-downs) like old office displays, it's worth testing. Your MacBook will connect to them fine, with the appropriate cable/adaptor. That's why -- prioritize on getting a cable, so you can try your MacBook on any display. You don't have to be stuck with the internal display.

If your budget is limited, begin with a very old LCD. About 10 years old, before LED. And get some cheap "computer glasses" (orange tinted sunglasses), search for that term on your favourite online store such as Amazon or MercadoLibre or eBay or other. Computer glasses are more powerful than the Night Light modes in the display settings. These will be your low-cost left field start.

If you are near a large store like Office Depot or Best Buy or other, I suggest you book a few hours at a place. Explain to one of the salespeople you have a "vision medical problem" and you need to connect your MacBook to a few of those computer monitors. Bring both a HDMI adaptor and/or a DisplayPort adaptor for your MacBook. Connect to the screens, one by one, see how your eyes react to them. Make sure you get the refundable/exchange policy so for longer-use you can start.

I hope this helps steers you in the correct direction; I suggest you sequence this in this order:
- Arm yourself first! Cheap accessories (HDMI cable and DisplayPort cable for your Mac, so you begin experimenting, + cheap $10 computer glasses from Amazon, just in case you have a blue light trigger)
- Low lying apples (pun), aka televisions and monitors you can easily access (rec room, office showroom, friends, your living room, discarded recycle office monitors, etc)
- Cheap options (begin with one of left field option)
- Expensive options (other left field options)

[AshX]

Self-diagnosis is usually inaccurate but from what you described -- PWM is definitely one of the very likely culprits for your eye issues. Try testing one of the NON-PRO MacBooks too, if you don't want an external display; since they generally are PWM-free. MiniLED=PWM (much, much more than OLED).

I tried the MacBook Air 13” and 15” M4 and they triggered what I can only describe as a borderline seizure (I am not a diagnosed epileptic). They allegedly do not have PWM and are IPS LCD. The 15” was worse than the 13” - I barely made it through setup. It was a terrifying experience, to be honest.

This “gray color flicker” as others have dubbed it was the only thing that I found on camera. It is the only commonality I have found amongst IPS LCD Macs going back to the 2015 15” MBP that seems to be present on these otherwise “flicker free” devices. I recorded a 240 fps slow motion video of it here: https://streamable.com/v15msr

Additional video of my 2019 iMac 21.5” 4K Retina that was previously usable before I got reinfected with COVID: https://streamable.com/nx4vd5

And here is the 2015 15” MBP doing the same thing: https://streamable.com/sxkrio

The 2022 13” M2 MAcBook Pro Touchbar is the only Mac I found that does not have this flicker, and is the one I’m currently testing. It is the most tolerable by far - as in I can look at it for more than a few seconds - but still seems to be giving some residual symptoms like eye fatigue, pressure in the middle of forehead, and as I’ve described previously, some sort of nervous system involvement. I’m stumped as to what this could be beyond dithering or PWM that isn’t visible on camera.

I’ve enlisted many others on Reddit and we’ve detected this flicker on iMacs, iPads, and an array of Intel and Apple Silicon MacBooks. These are folks who could not use the MiniLED MacBook Pros and iPads and picked up LCD MacBook Airs and iPad Airs only to be unable to tolerate those as well. This is the only thing we’ve been able to find.

Unfortunately you have to start somewhere. I almost guarantee you will need to test at least 3 or 4 screens (possibly more) before you are satisfied.

So, due to that -- What is your budget? (This helps selects left field products to try) Are you able to travel? (to demo screens at a store like Best Buy). Are you able to borrow screens? (This helps broaden the net). Are you willing to do Amazon returns? (This will allow refunds that you can use to purchase the next screen if there is a problem).

There are extreme left field options available
- Your favourite television (you can connect a computer to a TV)
- One older CCFL LCD
- One desktop OLED (avoids PWM that some mobile OLEDs are afflicted by)
- One non-MiniLED LCD (MiniLED is great, but they have PWM which can affect eyestrain)
- One extreme Hz display (just in case you have a motion blur trigger)
- One e-ink displays (there are now desktop e-ink displays)
- Test out glossy too

I actually did what you suggested when I tested the 2025 13” MacBook Air M4 back in April. A lovely gentleman at Micro Center in Northern New Jersey took me around and we plugged into a bunch of monitors. They unfortunately didn’t have many true 8-bit monitors (that they could verify, at least). But we did run through the gamut: IPS, VA, OLED.

The problem I have had with testing both devices and monitors in-store is that the lighting environment (usually fluorescent or LED) is unlike my own personal lighting at home and usually triggers symptoms on its own. The Apple Store, for example, causes the same seizure-like symptoms (tachycardia, sweating, feeling like my eyes are being “shocked”) as their new laptops. My guess given how meticulous Apple is (the Micro Center guy said Apple sends a specific employee who is in charge of designing and installing the Apple section down to the lighting and placement of devices) that they are somehow matching the tone and PWM frequency of their lights to their devices. Or they’re just low quality. I have been to different Best Buy stores and 1 is even worse than the Apple Store, but the other with older fluorescents is mostly fine.

So my experience at Micro Center was largely a waste beyond discovering that OLED was not suitable (motion sickness, almost passed out) at least the two he showed me. The other problem I have is once I’ve been exposed to a problematic screen the symptoms often last hours, so testing other devices or screens is usually a waste of time as I’ll often be triggered by light of any kind.

A few folks have found success with the 2022 13” MacBook Pro Touchbar M2 laptop. This device has been confirmed to not flicker on gray and uses the older mid-2010s (butterfly keyboard era) Retina screens with the bezels. Apple made two versions of this (M1 and M2) in 2020 and 2022 before discontinuing it. It differs from the MiniLED Pro models with the notch that as you mentioned, have PWM. Notebookcheck determines the PWM frequency is 117kHz (compared to the 14” MiniLED Pro which has 15KHz at all brightness levels) at 56% and lower brightness. This Touchbar MBP is the one I am currently testing and it has been the only one I’ve been able to look at for more than a few seconds.

I’m trying to be as scientific as possible in terms of isolating what the problem may be. As I’ve said what throws me off is that I have used an iPhone 13 - which is OLED and allegedly has a 480Hz PWM frequency - all these years and it is 100% comfortable all the time. I have not looked at this device under microscope or with an Opple light master, so I can’t tell for sure what the modulation depth is or if it dithers - the only test I’ve seen is of the iPhone 14 Pro which does not dither. It also could be that the size of the device is why, but if that were true then I’d be able to use other newer OLED iPhones, which I cannot (they cause trouble focusing and dizziness sometimes). So I’m stumped.

If I were to theorize, it is less about the type of flicker for me but the frequency and the modulation. 480Hz may be low, but if it is relatively stable then is it reasonable to assume it would be comfortable?

It’s also much higher than the frequency that FRC dithering would be at on a 60Hz refresh rate screen, correct? And the gray color flicker is assumed to be occurring at a fairly low frequency to be visible on slow motion camera 240 fps? Please correct me if im off-base here.

I do notice an improvement when True Tone is enabled on the MBP, so I agree blue light is playing a role. But it’s more like seeing a bright light or a bright headlight that makes my eye shut - it doesn’t seem to cause a nervous system reaction in the same way flickering does.

I guess what I’m trying to get at is to identify what range of flicker is the most problematic instead of just guessing as I have been. Or at least to narrow things down to where there is a greater likelihood of success. The X factor in my mind is modern versions of MacOS which pushes 10-bit colors using their ColorSync management. The Stillcolor program attempts to brute force the color depth down to 8-bit, and thus avoid dithering, but no one seems to know for sure whether internal Apple screens are applying their own processing. I noticed that “gray color flicker” was passed on to all the external monitors at Micro Center, which was bizarre. So to me that indicates Apple is trying to maintain a consistency in their display by sending a blended signal of the GPU and the internal display to external monitors. I am curious if the Touchbar MacBook Pro will yield a superior result.

Now as to budget I would say I would prefer to stay within $500. Monitors I have put on my shortlist:

-2013 Apple Thunderbolt Display (I am concerned about transistor leakage, however, but it is glossy)

-Dell S2722DC (allegedly true 8-bit, a standard office monitor)

-Dell Pro 22 Plus (smaller monitor like my iMac)

-LG Ultrafine 4K 24MD4KL-B (Apple compatible from before they released the Studio Display. It is 8-bit + FRC, though)

-Other LG Ultrafine monitors or Ben Q

-iPad utilizing Sidecar

-I am clueless as to OLED options. I did try two at Micro Center but they almost made me pass out. The employee struggled to turn off whatever HDR feature was making them strobe. I was using slow motion camera to observe the flicker and it was really aggressive, so I’m a bit hesitant