Help for a Musician & Producer

[Chief Blur Buster]

Self-diagnosis is usually inaccurate but from what you described -- PWM is definitely one of the very likely culprits for your eye issues. Try testing one of the NON-PRO MacBooks too, if you don't want an external display; since they generally are PWM-free. MiniLED=PWM (much, much more than OLED).

I tried the MacBook Air 13” and 15” M4 and they triggered what I can only describe as a borderline seizure (I am not a diagnosed epileptic). They allegedly do not have PWM and are IPS LCD. The 15” was worse than the 13” - I barely made it through setup. It was a terrifying experience, to be honest.

This “gray color flicker” as others have dubbed it was the only thing that I found on camera. It is the only commonality I have found amongst IPS LCD Macs going back to the 2015 15” MBP that seems to be present on these otherwise “flicker free” devices. I recorded a 240 fps slow motion video of it here: https://streamable.com/v15msr

Additional video of my 2019 iMac 21.5” 4K Retina that was previously usable before I got reinfected with COVID: https://streamable.com/nx4vd5

And here is the 2015 15” MBP doing the same thing: https://streamable.com/sxkrio

The 2022 13” M2 MAcBook Pro Touchbar is the only Mac I found that does not have this flicker, and is the one I’m currently testing. It is the most tolerable by far - as in I can look at it for more than a few seconds - but still seems to be giving some residual symptoms like eye fatigue, pressure in the middle of forehead, and as I’ve described previously, some sort of nervous system involvement. I’m stumped as to what this could be beyond dithering or PWM that isn’t visible on camera.

I’ve enlisted many others on Reddit and we’ve detected this flicker on iMacs, iPads, and an array of Intel and Apple Silicon MacBooks. These are folks who could not use the MiniLED MacBook Pros and iPads and picked up LCD MacBook Airs and iPad Airs only to be unable to tolerate those as well. This is the only thing we’ve been able to find.

Unfortunately you have to start somewhere. I almost guarantee you will need to test at least 3 or 4 screens (possibly more) before you are satisfied.

So, due to that -- What is your budget? (This helps selects left field products to try) Are you able to travel? (to demo screens at a store like Best Buy). Are you able to borrow screens? (This helps broaden the net). Are you willing to do Amazon returns? (This will allow refunds that you can use to purchase the next screen if there is a problem).

There are extreme left field options available
- Your favourite television (you can connect a computer to a TV)
- One older CCFL LCD
- One desktop OLED (avoids PWM that some mobile OLEDs are afflicted by)
- One non-MiniLED LCD (MiniLED is great, but they have PWM which can affect eyestrain)
- One extreme Hz display (just in case you have a motion blur trigger)
- One e-ink displays (there are now desktop e-ink displays)
- Test out glossy too

I actually did what you suggested when I tested the 2025 13” MacBook Air M4 back in April. A lovely gentleman at Micro Center in Northern New Jersey took me around and we plugged into a bunch of monitors. They unfortunately didn’t have many true 8-bit monitors (that they could verify, at least). But we did run through the gamut: IPS, VA, OLED.

The problem I have had with testing both devices and monitors in-store is that the lighting environment (usually fluorescent or LED) is unlike my own personal lighting at home and usually triggers symptoms on its own. The Apple Store, for example, causes the same seizure-like symptoms (tachycardia, sweating, feeling like my eyes are being “shocked”) as their new laptops. My guess given how meticulous Apple is (the Micro Center guy said Apple sends a specific employee who is in charge of designing and installing the Apple section down to the lighting and placement of devices) that they are somehow matching the tone and PWM frequency of their lights to their devices. Or they’re just low quality. I have been to different Best Buy stores and 1 is even worse than the Apple Store, but the other with older fluorescents is mostly fine.

So my experience at Micro Center was largely a waste beyond discovering that OLED was not suitable (motion sickness, almost passed out) at least the two he showed me. The other problem I have is once I’ve been exposed to a problematic screen the symptoms often last hours, so testing other devices or screens is usually a waste of time as I’ll often be triggered by light of any kind.

A few folks have found success with the 2022 13” MacBook Pro Touchbar M2 laptop. This device has been confirmed to not flicker on gray and uses the older mid-2010s (butterfly keyboard era) Retina screens with the bezels. Apple made two versions of this (M1 and M2) in 2020 and 2022 before discontinuing it. It differs from the MiniLED Pro models with the notch that as you mentioned, have PWM. Notebookcheck determines the PWM frequency is 117kHz (compared to the 14” MiniLED Pro which has 15KHz at all brightness levels) at 56% and lower brightness. This Touchbar MBP is the one I am currently testing and it has been the only one I’ve been able to look at for more than a few seconds.

I’m trying to be as scientific as possible in terms of isolating what the problem may be. As I’ve said what throws me off is that I have used an iPhone 13 - which is OLED and allegedly has a 480Hz PWM frequency - all these years and it is 100% comfortable all the time. I have not looked at this device under microscope or with an Opple light master, so I can’t tell for sure what the modulation depth is or if it dithers - the only test I’ve seen is of the iPhone 14 Pro which does not dither. It also could be that the size of the device is why, but if that were true then I’d be able to use other newer OLED iPhones, which I cannot (they cause trouble focusing and dizziness sometimes). So I’m stumped.

If I were to theorize, it is less about the type of flicker for me but the frequency and the modulation. 480Hz may be low, but if it is relatively stable then is it reasonable to assume it would be comfortable?

It’s also much higher than the frequency that FRC dithering would be at on a 60Hz refresh rate screen, correct? And the gray color flicker is assumed to be occurring at a fairly low frequency to be visible on slow motion camera 240 fps? Please correct me if im off-base here.

I do notice an improvement when True Tone is enabled on the MBP, so I agree blue light is playing a role. But it’s more like seeing a bright light or a bright headlight that makes my eye shut - it doesn’t seem to cause a nervous system reaction in the same way flickering does.

I guess what I’m trying to get at is to identify what range of flicker is the most problematic instead of just guessing as I have been. Or at least to narrow things down to where there is a greater likelihood of success. The X factor in my mind is modern versions of MacOS which pushes 10-bit colors using their ColorSync management. The Stillcolor program attempts to brute force the color depth down to 8-bit, and thus avoid dithering, but no one seems to know for sure whether internal Apple screens are applying their own processing. I noticed that “gray color flicker” was passed on to all the external monitors at Micro Center, which was bizarre. So to me that indicates Apple is trying to maintain a consistency in their display by sending a blended signal of the GPU and the internal display to external monitors. I am curious if the Touchbar MacBook Pro will yield a superior result.

Now as to budget I would say I would prefer to stay within $500. Monitors I have put on my shortlist:

-2013 Apple Thunderbolt Display (I am concerned about transistor leakage, however, but it is glossy)

-Dell S2722DC (allegedly true 8-bit, a standard office monitor)

-Dell Pro 22 Plus (smaller monitor like my iMac)

-LG Ultrafine 4K 24MD4KL-B (Apple compatible from before they released the Studio Display. It is 8-bit + FRC, though)

-Other LG Ultrafine monitors or Ben Q

-iPad utilizing Sidecar

-I am clueless as to OLED options. I did try two at Micro Center but they almost made me pass out. The employee struggled to turn off whatever HDR feature was making them strobe. I was using slow motion camera to observe the flicker and it was really aggressive, so I’m a bit hesitant

Your list is potentially too narrow if you got this intense level of symptoms.

Try adding some additional NON-LCD options to your list if possible. I've seen OLED fall to under $500 occasionally already, so try to include a desktop OLED (desktop OLED are non-PWM, and have brightness dips briefer/shallower than the AC zero crossings of an incandescent light bulb).

LCD projector, LCD television, e-ink display, and other left-field tests away from LCD may be required. The old CCFL displays (including 2013 Thunderbolt) will probably solve your problem.

Since you even get triggered by room lighting, you definitely have confirmed PWM trigger. Stay away from MiniLED as local dimming always use PWM. Try using only monolithic global backlights.

If you are desparate, try e-ink + Reduce Motion. Possibly intentionally switch to a lower Hz (e.g. 24Hz instead of 60Hz, 120Hz, 240Hz). Sometimes getting to a super low Hz gets you away from certain secondary triggers. Things get choppy and maybe a little less comfortable, but sometimes reduces motion sickness for some people. Some prefer high framerates to fix motion sickness, others need low framerate.

Thank you so much!