BenQ XL2411Z Is this normal? [Solved]

Adjusting BENQ Blur Reduction and DyAc (Dynamic Acceleration) including Blur Busters Strobe Utility. Supports most BenQ/Zowie Z-Series monitors (XL2411, XL2420, XL2720, XL2735, XL2540, XL2546)
tangelo
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Re: BenQ XL2411Z Is this normal?

Post by tangelo » 04 Dec 2014, 13:15

EDIT:

So here is the 100Hz settings from cru that did work. The ghosting was gone and OSD show 60Hz

Image

And here is the settings for 120Hz that still does not work. Ghosting is present and OSD shows 120Hz

Image

Here is a photo showing the 100Hz tweak in action.

Image

So, the problem that now remains is, how to get the tweak working in 120Hz? Does the sync polarities matter? Is there anything else that I can change on the settings that could matter? Should I run that patch some people are talking on the forums?
i5 4670K / Asus Z87-A / 8 GB Kingston HyperX / BenQ XL2411Z / Radeon 7950

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masterotaku
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Re: BenQ XL2411Z Is this normal?

Post by masterotaku » 04 Dec 2014, 14:21

tangelo wrote: So, the problem that now remains is, how to get the tweak working in 120Hz? D
Did you use the pixel clock patcher? http://www.monitortests.com/forum/Threa ... ck-Patcher

If you did it correctly, it should say:

DL-DVI limit: already patched
SL-DVI/HDMI limit: already patched
SL limit on DL-DVI: already patched


Btw, you asked about a shortcut to the brightness setting. It can be done. In the OSD, go to System -> Customkey 1, Customkey2, Customkey 3. I configured it to Blur Reduction, contrast and brightness respectively. For your safety, always have blur reduction in one of them.
CPU: Intel Core i7 7700K @ 4.9GHz
GPU: Gainward Phoenix 1080 GLH
RAM: GSkill Ripjaws Z 3866MHz CL19
Motherboard: Gigabyte Gaming M5 Z270
Monitor: Asus PG278QR

tangelo
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Re: BenQ XL2411Z Is this normal?

Post by tangelo » 04 Dec 2014, 14:26

I used the patcher and everything works now. I was following the guide I mentioned earlier and it didn't mention the patcher so I was kinda oblivious about it before starting to dig deeper into the forums.

Thank you all for your help. Great improvement overall.

I have couple final questions tho.

Will running these customs settings affect the life span of the panel or backlight in any way?

Short: Is it safe?

And is there a reason to run the tweak at 1500 as the guide only mentions 1350? What's the treade off between these two?

I read somewhere that the blur reduction feature is gonna put some strain on your eyes due to the strobe, is there any truth to this? I think it's kinda funny when at the same time BenQ advertises "eye care" and flicker free back light. So if someone is to say use only the desktop and browse the internet for multiple hours, is it less stressful to eyes to not use the blur reduction?

Again, I wholeheartedly thank you Falkentyne and masterotaku for your support and help.
i5 4670K / Asus Z87-A / 8 GB Kingston HyperX / BenQ XL2411Z / Radeon 7950

Falkentyne
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Re: BenQ XL2411Z Is this normal?

Post by Falkentyne » 04 Dec 2014, 15:08

Running 1500 VT pushes the panel to its limits similar to what lightboost mode does, and forces as fast of a scanout as possible, but still not as fast as lightboost, as LB has a LC panel timing change (on the hardware level) so it does this without needing VT tweaks. But as below, accelerated scanout by either method introduces a faint scanlines effect you may see.

If you run testUFO with 120hz lightboost (you need an Nvidia card or laptop surrogate to unlock lightboost on the Z monitors; strobelight wont work) what you will notice is that the ghosting crosstalk you get at the top of the screen is virtually identical to the Benq at 100hz and 1.0ms persistence with the VT 1500 tweak. You will see the very top of the double image crosstalk band at the very top of the screen, while the rest of the top looks great.

It will look identical to how the Z monitor looks with VT 1502, except the BBR lacks per-line overdrive, so the image overdrive ghosting will be significantly worse than lightboost (this is the highest possible value btw) at 100hz, with between a 0.750-1.0ms persistence (although the Z monitor will be darker).

What's funny is, 100hz lightboost pushes that very top edge of the crosstalk field completely OFF the screen. Using VT tweaks with 80 hz and lower on benq blur reduction *Do the exact same thing*. Now if you were able to unlock lightboost 100hz, and set the contrast to 0, you would notice absolutely NO ghosting at all in testUFO. And none on the desktop either! Just some slight inverse ghosting at the bottom of the screen. Remember lightboost uses per-line overdrive, which Benq BR does not use--that's how lightboost gets rid of almost all the ghosting if you lower the contrast.

But yeah both lightboost and increasing the vertical total force the panel to update the screen and let the pixel transitions complete faster between the strobe phases. Lightboost does this by a LC panel update on the hardware side, while increasing the vertical total pushes the pixel dot clock higher, which forces the panel to update faster and thus helps the panel complete the pixel transitions faster, between the strobe pulses. (the blurry double image mess that you saw is a strobe pulse settling error; without the VT tweaks, you had the one at the top (with strobe phase 000 its at the very top) and the one at the bottom. The VT tweaks do not change the position of the pulse at the top, which is almost offscreen *IF* the persistence is low enough, but the VT tweaks push the bottom of the pulse offscreen. The panel switches to 60 hz backlight pulse widths when it's run out of specification like this as per : http://display-corner.epfl.ch/index.php/BenQ_XL2411Z ; that's why the OSD is reporting 60 hz.

Because the panel is updating faster, both lightboost mode and VT tweaks in BBR mode may cause a faint scanline pattern to appear, usually around the higher parts of the screen. This is unavoidable and is because the accelerated scanout is pushing the panel harder than it was designed. You will notice that lightboost mode has a larger scanline pattern, because Lightboost's accelerated scanout is more intense than the VT tweak (that's why in lightboost mode, the top and bottom of the crosstalk field are even farther off the screen than the VT1502 BBR tweak.

Note that even if BBR is turned off, you may see the scanline effect even though non strobing operation (AMA) isn't affected in a measurable way.

The main issue still remaining with Benq BR mode is the overdrive artifacts, since there is no per-line overdrive. Benq doesn't have an option to adjust the overdrive gain like the VG248QE does (via the service menu), so you either have to deal with AMA off (normal ghosting) or AMA on (a bit too aggressive ghosting), but considering the lack of per line overdrive, Benq actually set things the best they could. AMA high in benq blur reduction mode (which is actually a hidden setting called "MBR/high" is actually LESS intense than normal AMA high (if you do testUFO and then toggle AMA off and high with BBR ALREADY ON, you will see much more intense inverse ghosting).

Now you may ask "well, why didn't they tune it so the inverse ghosting is completely gone, like lightboost mode?"
Well...look at the bottom of the testufo screen with the VT tweaks.
You see that normal ghosting?
That normal ghosting would turn into 'regular ghosting" even worse than it is now, (because you cant fix BOTH inverse ghosting AND normal ghosting at the same time). EVEN at lightboost 100hz, while the top of the screen is pristine (contrast 0 on Benq 2720Z, contrast 45 on VG248QE), the bottom has an inverse ghosting pattern.

If you go into the VG248QE service menu and adjust the OD gain from 0F (most aggressive) down to 0C, the BOTTOM of the screen goes from faint inverse ghosting, to becoming perfect (!) while the TOP of the screen goes from perfect to showing faint NORMAL ghosting. (yes, OD gain can be adjusted in lightboost mode). And this is with lightboost's per line overdrive.

Due to per line overdrive, some 2D games, where the inverse ghosting can be apparent (on sharp transitions) in MBR mode, will look better in lightboost mode instead (if you can unlock it), so if you play 2D windows side scrollers, if you ever get an Nvidia laptop or cheap surrogate card to unlock lightboost (1138 VT at 100hz and 1149 VT at 120hz activates, but does not "Unlock" lightboost), you may want lightboost for those games. Most 3D games will look better in BBR mode, as overdrive ghosting isn't as obvious (just the crosstalk field ghosting) and having better colors and contrast makes more of a difference.

*edit*
you asked if it's safe.
Yes, it's as safe as using lightboost (accelerated scanout is accelerated scanout), as long as you do not exceed the persistence ratings for the backlight LED's. Remember that using the VT tweaks make the monitor use the 60hz backlight pulse widths and as shown here:
http://display-corner.epfl.ch/index.php/BenQ_XL2411Z
60hz refresh rate itself has a 5.0ms maximum persistence (strobe duty 030), while 120hz has a 2.5ms maximum persistence.
(These are WITHOUT VT Tweaks--this is how the monitor was designed to be run).

Using the VT tweaks forces the 60hz backlight pulse widths, and now you can see a problem--120hz now has a 5.0ms persistence setting possible (the windows blur reduction utility is based on using the VT tweaks btw!), when 120hz is only rated for 2.5ms
100hz has a 5.0ms persistence possible also (using the 60hz pulses), but is rated for 3.0ms. So just don't go past 2.5 to 3.0ms persistence unless you're at 60hz! Using 5.0ms persistence can probably shorten the lifetime of the LED', and besides you would not even WANT to use 5.0ms persistence! If you switched blur reduction OFF, the screen would actually get dimmer than with BBR on (!). There's absolutely no reason to use higher than a 1.5ms persistence, and as I explained in another post (different thread), raising the persistence (strobe duty) LOWERS the position of the top crosstalk field, so you want the persistence as low as possible so that blurry mess is as high up as possible (anything past 1.0ms makes the top of the screen too annoying).

The other drawback to VT tweaks is you can't use the display mode aspect settings anymore (in the OSD), because the screen switching to 60hz pulses causes strange stuff to happen to the OSD's aspect sizes. Even using a VT tweak at 60 hz itself causes things to act weird with the aspect settings. You can use the display mode settings by forcing a custom resolution that doesn't have the VT tweaks; for directX 9 games, you can do that with custom resolution utility easily, then just launch the game with the custom refresh rate matching the same refresh rate as the deskop, and the monitor will pick up the custom refresh rate (a few combinations will give cable errors if you're using the pixel clock patcher, due to the single link DVI limit being patched; there's a version of the toastyX patcher that does not patch the single link limits on a dual link port, to avoid that). For DX 10/11 games, though, you either need a BIN file without the VT tweaks or you need a DETAILED resolution in CRU without the VT tweaks for your game (like 1680x1050@120), for some reason, DX10/11 games refuse to use any established or standard resolution listed in CRU, and will use the first available non standard or non established resolution. (importing a custom bin file you saved, or using restart64.exe is very quick and useful for this stuff).

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masterotaku
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Re: BenQ XL2411Z Is this normal?

Post by masterotaku » 04 Dec 2014, 16:52

Falkentyne wrote:-snip-
Wow, good explanation. Your fingers must be tired :lol: .

To the OP: if somehow you can get Lightboost to work, there's a trick to make BBR overdrive artifacts better. Simply use Lightboost and then switch back to non Lighboost. If you have BBR enabled before doing that switch, overdrive artifacts will be much different. Here's a photo I've taken some minutes ago. 120Hz, contrast 0:
Image

That's around the middle of the screen. The bottom is worse, but not much with 0 contrast. At contrast 40, color transitions can be weird in the last 1/3 of the screen. In general, I consider this to be better than the normal BBR (it doesn't have those ugly transparent afterimages).

Edit: in the photo it looks a bit better than in real life, but just a bit :P (it's a proper "following camera" photo, by the way).
CPU: Intel Core i7 7700K @ 4.9GHz
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Falkentyne
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Re: BenQ XL2411Z Is this normal?

Post by Falkentyne » 04 Dec 2014, 17:02

I tried this, masterotaku, and it made the ghosting literally 5x worse! In fact, dare I say it, but it looked worse, after switching from lightboost to MBR directly (120hz lightboost to 100 hz MBR) than MBR with AMA premium! In fact it looked worse than AMA premium when switching AMA modes with Blur reduction enabled (and that looks bad)!

Maybe the 24" panel responds favorably to this? Because this doesn't work on the 2720Z for sure...

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masterotaku
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Re: BenQ XL2411Z Is this normal?

Post by masterotaku » 04 Dec 2014, 17:14

Falkentyne wrote:I tried this, masterotaku, and it made the ghosting literally 5x worse! In fact, dare I say it, but it looked worse, after switching from lightboost to MBR directly (120hz lightboost to 100 hz MBR) than MBR with AMA premium! In fact it looked worse than AMA premium when switching AMA modes with Blur reduction enabled (and that looks bad)!

Maybe the 24" panel responds favorably to this? Because this doesn't work on the 2720Z for sure...
It can look pretty bad in desktop, but I swear that it looks better in games (lowering contrast helps too, thing that I discovered today thanks to you :D). Darker games are benefited the most, because very light colors are the most problematic in this mode.
There are many games that look better with this (imo): CS:GO, Bioshock Infinite, Darksiders 1 and 2, Borderlands 2, The Darkness 2, etc.
I use it as an alternative to Lightboost because I want lower motion blur, better contrast and colors and any refresh rate. However, it's worse at lower refresh rates unless the game is very dark like The Evil Within. Normal BBR isn't bad at low refresh rates.

Edit: I would prove it with photo comparisons of games if I could, but I'm barely good enough with testufo photos (I took around 30 photos and most of them were garbage. This was the best).
CPU: Intel Core i7 7700K @ 4.9GHz
GPU: Gainward Phoenix 1080 GLH
RAM: GSkill Ripjaws Z 3866MHz CL19
Motherboard: Gigabyte Gaming M5 Z270
Monitor: Asus PG278QR

Falkentyne
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Re: BenQ XL2411Z Is this normal?

Post by Falkentyne » 04 Dec 2014, 18:22

I don't think this trick works with the 27" panel.
I just tried it again in COD black ops 2 and with contrast 0, it leaves a faint (correction: NOT FAINT AT ALL but strikingly obvious) -ghostly- trail that looks worse than regular BBR on in every way. At best case (dark background objects), theres not much difference. At worst, though....it's worse than anything you have ever seen. On the windows desktop, the mouse pointer has very translucent white ghost trails behind it...and they are VERY strikingly bold.
Not so bold in the middle of the screen, but it's there. To describe this, at the top and bottom of the screen, the ghosting cursor trails behind the mouse pointer are BRIGHTER And thicker than the pointer itself, if you are moving over a white background. On a dark/black background, you don't see anything but the pointer, but the same thing applies to both BBR And lightboost also. But the TestUFO page...was.....horrible. nothing even remotely close to your screenshot. You'd have to see the thick negative ghosting in person...definitely as bad as switching to AMA premium with MBR enabled--the only difference is, you get a more light ticky ghostly pattern in games instead of a darker ghosting pattern. But that's at contrast 0. Contrast 0 looks worse than AMA premium (turning on BBR after AMA is already at premium). At contrast 40, holy cow...the thickness of the inverse ghosting at the middle of the screen and lower (in test ufo) is thicker than the original image!

When I went from this to MBR with AMA high (toggled AMA to high with MBR already active), everything looked so much better, even with the extra overdrive that isn't usually there with toggling MMR on...bad on desktop and in testuFO but at least it is playable in Black Ops 2.

I don't think the 24" panel is showing this.
In your screenshot, the inverse ghosting looks light, like...close to lightboost quality.

But when I do this and go to testUFO....the inverse ghosting is as -thick- as the original image...it's like an intense negative of the original image and it looks bad....

I saw your screenshot....if you had the effect I'm having, your screenshot would DEFINITELY show it, and it doesn't.

Basically, MBR/AMA High (toggling AMA after MBR is already enabled), as opposed to "MBR/High", is actually an improved (better looking) version of the super intense horrible negative ghosting I'm getting with your method of "Lightboost/MBR AMA high"

BTW, without all this stuff, with contrast 0 with regular benq blur reduction and strobe phase 000 and VT 1500, the BOTTOM of the screen (the very bottom field of UFO's--only the first field at the bottom) looks lightboost quality--the regular ghosting completely vanishes (the inverse ghosting remains), which is worse than lightboost.

tangelo
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Re: BenQ XL2411Z Is this normal?

Post by tangelo » 05 Dec 2014, 08:30

Btw. Regarding my other question about the blacks being too white and grayish. Is there any trick to get them better? The only major difference for me what I've been able to find is that putting "Instant mode" OFF. But this makes the testufo look worse. I've tried multiple different bright/contrast settins and combinations. I have Gamma at 5.

Should I try running the monitor without the Black eQualizer? I would have to change the picture mode to something else than "Standard" to get the option for that not grayed out.

It's also annoying that the left top corner seems to be quite ok, but the worst part is the right bottom corner. I've looked multiple reviews and at least one of them mentioned that the right bottom corner was the brightest part in the uniform tests. So I guess it's just how this panel is? Also, if I put a completely white background on desktop. The left bottom has kinda blueish tint to it, as the right top has more warm color. Trying different ICC profiles sometimes mask the effect but distort the colors overall so that's not really an option.
i5 4670K / Asus Z87-A / 8 GB Kingston HyperX / BenQ XL2411Z / Radeon 7950

Falkentyne
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Re: BenQ XL2411Z Is this normal?

Post by Falkentyne » 05 Dec 2014, 09:22

To fix the blacks, set the gamma to gamma 5. That gives you deep blacks, but pushes the gamma target to 2.4 (which is often nice in games though).

The reason that black equalizer is NOT available in standard mode is the SAME Reason that gamma setting isn't available in FPS mode!

Basically, the black equalizer is a combination of color gain settings and gamma adjustments that brighten the dark shades while leaving the brighter shades without as much of an effect. You can actually see the gamma change by an entire level at certain steps, I think one step is EQ 18, another step is EQ 3, but I don't remember all the steps. So this is why you cant use black equalizer in standard mode, since EQ changes the gamma also. and in FPS mode, black eq is available thus gamma is grayed. Anyway try gamma 5.

(edit) ok I'm bad at reading and didn't see you were already using gamma 5.

And about the blueish tint at the top left, what happens if you line your head directly with the top left corner (as if the top left corner were somehow the center of the screen?) The top left looks fine to me if I alien my head up with it, but if Im looking lower, the top (not just the top left) gets slightly 'cloudy'. That's just TN color shift, though. You should not have any tint at all if you are looking at the top left left head-on.

Usually on a TN, if you are too close to the screen, and looking dead center, you will see the entire bottom look bright, while the top area becomes darker and cloudy. You can fix that by sitting farther back.

Its also worth noting that the TN color shift to the left will look different than the TN color shift to the right.

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